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La Marzocco GS3 Disappointment - Page 2

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Link to "La Marzocco GS3 Disappointment"by Rosemary on Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:38 pm

I should say that the GS3 really does make superb coffee. I do want to have a long relationship with this machine and not have the relationship prematurely ended by some friction and metal fatigue as the drip tray goes in and out to fill the tank.
I am back to drinking virtually all shorts. I usually drink yirgacheffe and it now seems a sin to put any milk with it when the shot is so good. I had the first latte this morning as I picked up some "Ruby" coffee yesterday from Morgan's Coffee and it was fantastic. So please don't get me wrong. It makes fantastic coffee. I just want to be able to keep doing this.

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Link to "La Marzocco GS3 Disappointment"by gscace on Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:50 pm

Hi Rosemary:

So I missed the part where you talked to the LM guys and they completely blew you off. Did you give them a chance to sort things out before you posted this?

FWIW the hole that you show is typical of a drilled hole in which the point of the drill breaks through the part before the main body of the drill enters the hole. When this happens the drill can chatter in the hole. The triangular shape is typical of this. I agree it isn't pretty. Since Teme's hole appears to be a milled slot, rather than a circular hole, and since your drain tray lugs don't fit into the hole, I'm wondering if someone may have forgotten to mill the slot after drilling the pilot hole. It happens. Sorry it happened to you.

I forwarded the link to this discussion to my friend, Bill Crossland at LM here in the US (Bill's the guy who designed the GS3). He immediately forwarded it to Italy. If they weren't aware of any problem they are now.

Personally I don't like the tone of much of this thread. I know firsthand how easy it is to make a mistake like that. Yeah, they should have caught it, but that's one reason why there is customer support. You say that there is a tech guy coming over to look at it but he hasn't come yet, and you posted this before he could look at it? And now a bunch of folks are now chiming in on the feeding frenzy. Give LM a chance to respond for crying out loud. They have a reputation for really good customer service here in the US anyway. Presumably they rock everywhere.

Oh, by the way a Scace will give you good information and reinforce the confidence in your machine choice that your taste buds are giving you.

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Link to "La Marzocco GS3 Disappointment"by Rosemary on Thu Jul 26, 2007 11:23 pm

I don't wish this to turn into a slanging match. I had emailed La Marzocco a week ago with regard to contents of the box and whether I needed to register with them for the new tank. I have not received any reply to this as yet. I emailed Tuesday detailing my concerns about the machine and on Wednesday I forwarded the photographs. I have received no communication. I was mindful that several people may be leaving this weekend to go to the Tokyo show and was hopeful someone could have a look for me.

The person who drilled these holes will surely have known how little metal was left. It is not consistent with a high end product. It illustrates the importance of internal quality assurance.

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Link to "La Marzocco GS3 Disappointment"by gscace on Fri Jul 27, 2007 7:04 am

Rosemary wrote:I don't wish this to turn into a slanging match. I had emailed La Marzocco a week ago with regard to contents of the box and whether I needed to register with them for the new tank. I have not received any reply to this as yet. I emailed Tuesday detailing my concerns about the machine and on Wednesday I forwarded the photographs. I have received no communication. I was mindful that several people may be leaving this weekend to go to the Tokyo show and was hopeful someone could have a look for me.

The person who drilled these holes will surely have known how little metal was left. It is not consistent with a high end product. It illustrates the importance of internal quality assurance.

Rosemary


I also don't wish to add to any rancor in the thread. I know the GS3 rocks, and I hope you get things sorted out.

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Link to "La Marzocco GS3 Disappointment"by Rosemary on Sun Jul 29, 2007 7:37 pm

I have just had a call from Greg at Allpress and am very relieved to say that Greg was concerned about the machine and he believed it was an isolated incident. They will get back to me in a few days but want to put it right and expected it to be a replacement machine. So that is all incredibly positive. I will keep you updated.

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Link to "La Marzocco GS3 Disappointment"by luca on Sun Jul 29, 2007 9:46 pm

Just stumbled by this thread; it seems that I'm a bit late, but I'd like to say that I'm sure you will be looked after.

RE: Scace device; Peter Cairis from ECA in Sydney has one and all of the necessary datalogging device. Although he works on e61 machines, he loves LMs. I'm sure that if you got in touch with him he would love the opportunity to datalog a GS3 and play around with some interesting coffees. Might save you shelling out another grand or so on measuring equipment.

RE: Dean's Ruby Fire blend; I had some here in Melbourne a few months ago on the cupping Synesso at St Ali. It struck me as quite acidic, but really opened up nicely when I bumped the temperature up to about 206.5F (!). So you might want to have a bit of a play around with some different temperatures with it. For all that I know, it might not need to be bumped up that high any more.

... so; are you teaming your machine up with a Robur? Or was that a Versalab that I spied in the background?

Very jealous,

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Link to "La Marzocco GS3 Disappointment"by cannonfodder on Sun Jul 29, 2007 9:55 pm

Versalab is what I saw in the background.

Pick your machine wisely, but pick your vendor even wiser. Service is what differentiates where I purchase a machine. service after the sale can make or break a distributor and manufacturer.
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Link to "La Marzocco GS3 Disappointment"by Rosemary on Sun Jul 29, 2007 10:20 pm

Yes it is a Versalab. Absolutely fantastic. Definitely domestic only. I love the fact that it is straight through and infinitely adjustable

I had been using a higher temperature on "Ruby Fire" but I hadn't gone that high. Thanks for suggesstion. I'll try even a little higher.

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Link to "La Marzocco GS3 Disappointment"by luca on Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:15 am

Cool; let me know how it turns out. Around that sort of temperature you might well start to burn the coffee, but if you go just a bit below the temperature where it burns I think you will be pleasantly surprised.

Cheers,

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Link to "La Marzocco GS3 Disappointment"by Rosemary on Mon Jul 30, 2007 8:17 am

False start.

I was told this morning by Greg at Allpress that the most likely outcome was replacement of the machine, and he quite reasonably pointed out that it would be some time (September) before it arrived in Australia. I was totally happy with that approach.

However I have now received an email from Ettore requesting my telephone number and stating that La Marzocco has a one year warranty and on a case by case basis they will consider a repair outside the warranty period. He says it won't break for a very long time. This is despite the fact that it has only two pieces of 1mm metal holding the front bar in place at either end. It does not appear that they are interested in providing a replacement machine. I am still waiting to receive a call from him but it is late here.

It would appear that they believe "handmade" covers the shabby workmanship that I have received. Amazingly, Ettore told me last Thursday night that they are still trying to work out where to put the lugs.

I have identified an additional problem. The technician who visited Friday to follow up on the drip tray problems determined that there was no option but to disconnect the tea tap as there appears to be a problem with the software. When the pump comes on to fill the steam tank the tea tap also opens and will not stop until the water tank is empty.

I am increasingly concerned what other faults may not have been resolved as yet. I am incredibly disillusioned with La Marzocco's response that there is nothing wrong with the product, and at the end of the day I feel ripped off.

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Link to "La Marzocco GS3 Disappointment"by cinergi on Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:26 am

Rosemary,

I'm really sorry to hear about your experience thus far. Hopefully, they will replace your machine and before they take off the month of August. I personally would be insisting on it or inquiring about their return policy. To me, no hassle incredible customer service is #1 on the list when purchasing a product of this level.

Hope everything turns out ok,

Doug
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Link to "La Marzocco GS3 Disappointment"by Randy G. on Mon Jul 30, 2007 11:57 am

Rosemary wrote:False start......... However I have now received an email from Ettore requesting my telephone number and stating that La Marzocco has a one year warranty and on a case by case basis they will consider a repair outside the warranty period. He says it won't break for a very long time. This is despite the fact that it has only two pieces of 1mm metal holding the front bar in place at either end. It does not appear that they are interested in providing a replacement machine. I am still waiting to receive a call from him but it is late here.


I am sorry that you are having to go through the disappointment of these problems after enjoying the excitement of its arrival. Purchasing the most expensive and most advanced home espresso machine ever one would have to expect receiving the best in all areas.

I think that the mass of responses here are overwhelmingly in support of you and bewildered as to how one of the very most respected name in espresso machines could send out a machine that would seem to be in Beta testing stage as a finished product. Your comment, " ....Ettore told me last Thursday night that they are still trying to work out where to put the lugs," and the problem you reported with the software and the hot water tap, I wonder if they are as far along as they should be in developing this machine before offering it to the public?

As consumers we wield a lot of power- more than we might think. I remember talking to the Rancilio rep at the Seattle show (iirc) about the folks who had been adjusting the OPV on the Silvias. He kind of giggled and said that they test them and that they were all within a small percentage of ideal. Less than a year later all Silvias came equipped with an adjustable OPV. No, I am not at all taking credit for that. A few years ago those of us adding PIDs to espresso machines were thought of as geeky lunatics but now we see more and more machines coming equipped with them- mostly on the commercial side, but it is happening. Jim of 1st-line has taken a lot of feedback from customers and his own requirements and has had the Domobar line improved in a number of areas to be able to offer a better product to his customers.

In this particular case of the LM GS-3 problems, if consumers accept sub-standard workmanship then we can expect to receive machines that exhibit this low-level of craftsmanship. That hole would have had a grommet or even a washer welded over it during production- not only to reinforce the hole but to make it look like the folks who produced the machine possess some pride in their workmanship and the product they produce. I guarantee that the area around that hole WILL rust. Rust is oxidized steel, and that means that as time goes along there will be even less metal in that area, so at the very least you need to sand and paint that area now (save the photos for documentation purposes).

I hope this all works out for you in the end, but it certainly is a lot to have to deal with, and I am sorry for your hassles. We can all ask ourselves, If I would have after seen this machine in a showroom and a salesperson said, "Oh- that hole? They all come that way. Don't worry about it. We have disconnected the hot water tap and expect a software fix for it any day now." Would you have still bought the machine for $4500 USD?
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Link to "La Marzocco GS3 Disappointment"by Psyd on Mon Jul 30, 2007 4:43 pm

Randy G. wrote: a machine that would seem to be in Beta testing stage as a finished product.


I'm of the opinion that all new machinery (and software) are in Beta. It is my habit never to buy anything technical that hasn't been on the market at least a year. The GS3 is in Beta as evidenced by the upgrades and planned upgrades so soon after 'release'.

Randy G. wrote:As consumers we wield a lot of power- more than we might think.


In comparison to the commercial input, probably not. Rancilio took quite a while to come to the conclusion that their home market might be important, but LM hasn't really had a lot of that experience.

Randy G. wrote:you need to sand and paint that area now (save the photos for documentation purposes).


Ehm, I would consider that the perfect opportunity to cry 'consumer modification that voids the warranty' if I were inclined to want to avoid fixing a problem. If you've given up on LM, by all means, but if you haven't, let it rust and rot. This will be the perfect proof that it was sub-standard, and they'll replace it.

Other than these nits, I'm in perfect agreement with Randy. To a certain degree, the privilege of being the first with new technology carries with it the responsibility of helping to refine the latest updates. Whether its good or not doesn't affect whether its true or not. Become satisfied, but be patient. Insist that the machine is all they promised, but let them figure out the best way to do that, once, as opposed to in many small steps. Either that, or insist that they take the machine back and refund your money.
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Link to "La Marzocco GS3 Disappointment"by A2chromepeacock on Mon Jul 30, 2007 9:30 pm

I guess I take a slightly different, but nonetheless disappointed approach.

I dream of the GS3, the same way I dream of an Aston Martin Vantage, or even the way I dream of sipping some '90 St. Emilion Grand Cru Classe from the deck of a yacht, moored in the waters off Anguilla.

Granted, each example progresses to the abstract, but all are material comforts that are, for some consumers, more (or significantly less) attainable. But regardless of my ability to own a GS3, soon or someday, I'm happy that it exists. I, for one, am comforted by a sense of material continuum. I enjoy the massive distance between a Mr. Coffee and a La Marzocco, a Rocky and a Robur, and I enjoy my place on that continuum--regardless of where it is.

What bothers me, on a personal level, is when I feel the ceiling come down; the bookends pushed closer together--by hearing that the Vantage is underpowered, or that the GS3 is being shipped at a quality level that no one would approve of.

Sure, a ristretto from my Pavoni is fairly luxurious, I think, but high-end luxury is a far off thing, and I'm comforted by it's distance. I don't want the President to be "just like me," and I don't want the GS3 to have cheap attention to detail. My utopia isn't marked by homogeneity, so I look forward to the GS3 standing back up straight again, and soon.
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Link to "La Marzocco GS3 Disappointment"by another_jim on Mon Jul 30, 2007 10:06 pm

It strikes me that as flaws go, this one is really niggling.

But, when you sell a single group pourover for $4500, you're not just selling a machine, or it's functionality, you're selling mystique and perfection. The dream-machine price means it needs to meet a dream-machine standard, namely, flawlessly perfect.
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Link to "La Marzocco GS3 Disappointment"by RegulatorJohnson on Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:14 pm

HB wrote:The analogy works for me. Much of what you pay for in a Rolex, Mercedes, or La Marzocco is impeccable workmanship, not just that the product performs its intended function well. I'm glad Rosemary brought this 'minor' problem up. Such a hack would be noted for equipment reviewed on this site costing 1/3 the price of the GS3. She's got every right to be miffed. The good news is that by all accounts, La Marzocco addresses such concerns promptly. I look forward to Rosemary's update.


i had a similar disappointment with a purchase of a vetrano. its only 1/3 of the cost. but after saving and drooling over the pics on the forums of the internal and the rotary. i had to have one. i memorized dans review, the chris coffee vetrano listing, countless forum posts, i visited a local friend who owns one. i finally bit the bullet, ordered, and it arrived. i had to see the inside and make sure there were no loose connections, etc. plus i had to wait for the water treatment stuff to arrive before i could plump it in.

i want to see the glorious shiny brass rotary pump everyone is hyped about. with anticipation i carefully open it up and see this.

Image

its probably not a big deal, it still works. although when it was squeaking i got worried, chris helped me out and assured me its no problem. i hope it isnt a problem later.

i was buying craftsmanship. though its not a huge blatant disregard for craft like the GS3 pics above. i sill think geez, what happened to that pump to cause that damage to it? it is misaligned and could it break down faster?

anyway not a deal breaker. chris rules, vetrano is great.

maybe a new sticker on the pump will help me sleep better?

:D

jon
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Link to "La Marzocco GS3 Disappointment"by Niko on Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:59 pm

Write the company in an email to Italy, attach the pic you posted here and mention your disappointment. Who knows, they might mail you a new sticker. I know I'd sleep better at night.
And just because your machine is a third of the price of a GS3 doesn't give that pump manufacturer the right to partially rub off the sticker, to me it's like partially rubbing off the logo of a BMW's valve cover and saying it still runs.
Either that or simply just remove the rest of the messy looking sticker completely for a nice clean appearance.
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Link to "La Marzocco GS3 Disappointment"by Randy G. on Wed Aug 01, 2007 5:56 pm

RegulatorJohnson wrote:i want to see the glorious shiny brass rotary pump everyone is hyped about. with anticipation i carefully open it up and see this....


I have stared at that image for a while and cannot figure out how it could have happened. It is difficult to tell from the image exactly what might have been the mechanism of damage. I think I would take the pump out, remove the sticker with some solvent, and polish the entire pump on a buffer until it looks like the sargent's belt buckle. Just plug the inlet and outlet and keep the compound away from the driven end.

At first I thought it was a matter of some sort of rebranding, but learned from their webpage: "Fluid-o-Tech makes pumps known by the brand name "Fluid-o-Tech", "FoT" and "Rotoflow". Fluid-o-Tech also manufactures pumps that are private labelled by others." maybe the "FoT" means they [screwd it up] on Tightening...? :o sorry... :oops:
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Link to "La Marzocco GS3 Disappointment"by RegulatorJohnson on Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:57 pm

Randy G. wrote:I have stared at that image for a while and cannot figure out how it could have happened. It is difficult to tell from the image exactly what might have been the mechanism of damage. I think I would take the pump out, remove the sticker with some solvent, and polish the entire pump on a buffer until it looks like the sargent's belt buckle. Just plug the inlet and outlet and keep the compound away from the driven end.

At first I thought it was a matter of some sort of rebranding, but learned from their webpage: "Fluid-o-Tech makes pumps known by the brand name "Fluid-o-Tech", "FoT" and "Rotoflow". Fluid-o-Tech also manufactures pumps that are private labelled by others." maybe the "FoT" means they [screwd it up] on Tightening...? :o sorry... :oops:


i have looked at it also.

the shell weighs about 40 pounds. it is 3 sides of the 70 pound machine. so its shaped like this from above |_| . the pump is near the bottom of the left side of the "U" shape. so it looks like given the weight of the shell it could have swung into the pump. if you how hit the pump with the shell it would do it. its a very straight across and down chop.

one other possibility i can think of is. that maybe the pump and motor are put together before they go in the machine. maybe somehow it banged into the frame. it also has a fairly solid and straight edge to cut a sticker with. maybe they rested it on the edge of the frame to get a better grip on the assembly before they installed it? so maybe it was gently gashed.

i have some more images for the forensic scientists in the crowd.

Image

another.

Image

im sure there is about 1/4" or more of solid brass behind that messed up sticker. so no worries on its operation probably.

sometimes i wish i was a fly on the wall when my machine got put together.

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Link to "La Marzocco GS3 Disappointment"by Makanmata on Wed Aug 01, 2007 7:06 pm

I have been on the waiting list for a GS3 for roughly two years now. I had initially been told to expect the machine fall 2006, then late 2006, then early 2007, then July 2007, and have now been told that machines are not expected in the US until early 2008. I was told that the holdup is now due to problems with UL listing, but I am wondering if there is more going on here. It shouldn't take a year to get a UL listing, and even if that was the only issue it makes me wonder why they have encountered such difficulty with UL that they have not been able to solve.

In any case, I have a ECM Giotto that needs to be replaced in the very near future. I have nursed that machine along in the hopes of replacing it with the GS3, but I can only wait so much longer, and my enthusiasm for waiting has been diminished by seeing threads like this. My problem is that I really want a great machine, and I am having trouble finding one in this general class that does not have to be plumbed in, which is simply not an option in my kitchen. I would probably buy an Elektra, but my understanding is that it does not come as a pour over. Is there anything available that I am overlooking, or anything that might soon become available (Synesso maybe)? I would have hoped that the extreme enthusiasm for the GS3 would have pushed other manufacturers to develop a machine to compete in this market segment, and Marzocco's inability to deliver the machine would seem to offer an excellent opportunity to do so. Any thoughts on where I might look for other options? Thanks.
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