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La Cimbali Junior - Burr "Wobble"? - Page 4

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Link to "La Cimbali Junior - Burr "Wobble"?"by Ken Fox on Mon Dec 31, 2007 2:20 am

zin1953 wrote:Having just discovered this old thread . . .

I am intrigued by a couple of comments made by TJ that no one has yet addressed.



The Bistro models are overkill for a home situation.

There are some new models coming out that I believe may be available to look at in the exposition at the next SCAA convention, in May of 2008. How soon these models will be commercially available is probably not yet known.

They are working on some improvements for the M21 Junior. I was contacted a while back for some details on what I have done in modifying my DT1 Junior. You can bet that if they decide to include anything similar (pre-infusion; electronic temperature control) in a production model that it will be much more cleanly and elegantly done than what I have produced, making my mods look like a hack job in comparison.

I think it will be a while before you see a changed/improved model of the M21 Junior in the retail channel.

ken
What, me worry?

Alfred E. Neuman, 1955
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Cimbali Junior Project

Link to "La Cimbali Junior - Burr "Wobble"?"by T.J. on Mon Dec 31, 2007 1:46 pm

I have been hesitating to post any response regarding what have become very serious considerations by myself and my company to develop an improved M-21 Junior for the Home Coffee Enthusiast.
For the most part I want to make sure that we can do what we say and do not mislead the market.
I also feel strongly that achieving a price point and honoring that price is fundamental in having a successful launch and long term support by those of you who will "jump on board" as soon as the product is made available.

In short, we are currently investigating an HX system (as you know I believe in the HX over dual boiler for what I feel are obvious reasons) which will incorporate several technological advances that have been incorporated into the highest level model of our M-39 series (which has become the choice of professional Barista's and Leading Cafes all over the world (with America slowly catching up!)).

This project, if it proceeds, will have been motivated by my own personal belief that the Cimbali HX system and our technology can create the best espresso machine for any type of use within any situation either professional or high end domestic. Behind the scenes, Chris from Chris Coffee and Ken Fox have lent support, market data and technical information which hopefully will prove to be beneficial in the advancement of this project.

As it stands right now, I feel the Cimbali Junior is clearly the best overall machine in the high end category.
With these many new improvements that are being considered, it will offer the Home Enthusiast the best brew characteristics, pre-infusion, thermostability and functional options of any machine available on the market within a single group chassis at any price.

The project is in the embryonic stage......perhaps 1 year to 18 months before test models may be delivered.
I will keep you posted.
T.J. Tarateta
G.M. Ammirati Imports
La Cimbali
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www.espressoparts.com: espresso machines, grinders, brewing equipment & parts
www.espressoparts.com: espresso machines, grinders, brewing equipment & parts

Link to "La Cimbali Junior - Burr "Wobble"?"by zin1953 on Mon Dec 31, 2007 4:06 pm

Thank you, Ken & T.J.
A morning without coffee is sleep. -- Anon.
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Link to "La Cimbali Junior - Burr "Wobble"?"by torretta on Mon Dec 31, 2007 5:23 pm

This sounds great. It's nice to see that a company as large as Cimbali is willing to cater to the smaller enthusiast market.
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Link to "La Cimbali Junior - Burr "Wobble"?"by CGP4 on Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:31 pm

If you care for "wishlist" requests for the next generation of M21 Junior, I'd love to see it get even smaller! Perhaps an optional set of feet for the home user, who doesn't need to comply with NSF standards, to lower the machine more. Likewise, the cup warmer "rails" in their current incarnation could be shortened, or even eliminated and replaced with a removable rail. These requests, obviously, are reflections of my personal bias for smaller machines to avoid spousal disapproval. The Junior is already pretty darn compact for a commercial machine!
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Link to "La Cimbali Junior - Burr "Wobble"?"by gscace on Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:38 pm

Ken Fox wrote:
RAS wrote:Just received my La Cimbali Junior after sitting on the fence too long and missing the incredible deal offered on two of them by Chris during the recent HB-anniversary sale. Oh well. When I amortize the price I paid over the number of years the Junior will last, I'm fine with what it cost me.

This last weekend was my first chance to play with it, and as others have already written, this is an incredible grinder. Being a tinkerer, I decided to take the hopper off and have a slightly better look at the burr and entry path for beans into the burrs. I came up with a feed-funnel idea that I've already implemented; it guarantees that no beans get hung up on the little ledge right before the burrs (I used a cycling water bottle which I cut down to give me a funnel which fits perfectly inside the throat).

While I had the hopper off, I plugged the grinder in and turned it on, then off, and noticed that, as the lower burr was slowly coming to a stop, it is not perfectly aligned with the upper burr, in a rotational sense. That is, it seems to wobble a bit relative to the upper, stationary, burr. My guess is that the mounting hole for the lower burr is larger than the motor shaft onto which it mounts, and that it was cinched into place while slightly out of alignment. (A bolt is used to secure the lower burr to the shaft.)

The grinder seems to grind very well in spite of the wobble, so I'm wondering if it's worth trying to correct... Though, if it grinds this well with the burrs slightly out of alignment, how good would it do if they were aligned?! Malachi, or anyone else who's gotten familiar with this grinder, as only a true geek can, I'd appreciate some insight.

Thank you!


I think you need to confirm that it is really out of alignment, and what you are seeing is not an optical illusion. Also, you need to be sure when this condition exists; if it is just as the burrs are coming to a halt, it may have something to do with the design of the grinder, rather than it being a manufacturing fault.

Any company can make a manufacturing mistake, or any product can be damaged in shipping, however Cimbali does have very high standards on everything they put out with their name on it.

Greg Scace called me with a similar problem he had observed on a Junior grinder that he bought a couple of years ago; in the end he had it replaced. How he confirmed that in fact there was a problem and not just an erroneous observation, I'm not sure.

For the record, I have essentially three of these grinders, a ten year old Cadet (bought new) which is more or less the same thing, plus two current vintage Juniors. I've not had any problems with any of them.

With the information you have given us I don't think there would be any way that we could tell you what the difference would be if you got one that ground in a more "aligned" fashion.

For the record, grinding for espresso the burrs are pretty damn close together. If there was a significant problem with the alignment you would either get poorly and irregularly ground beans with inability to make fine adjustments, or you'd be hearing metal on metal grinding as the burrs hit at some point, or both. In the absence of those observations and if the grinds come out well and you have no problems with adjustability, my guess is that you have either an optical illusion or a design situation in how the grinder stops once the power is cut.

ken


Yeah, they've been known to ship them that way. In my case, the clue was that the grinder vibrated on the counter when I turned it off. To answer Ken's post and to answer the OP as well - I measured it with a dial indicator.

I returned the grinder and got another one Jr. from Chris, which was much better wrt radial runout, but not perfect. The grinder worked fine - I really liked some aspects of it, particularly the adjustment mechanism and the doser. The runout offended my sense of proper mechanical function, but I'm not sure if it really affects anything as long as the runout is not large (not large being somewhat squishy). The most important issue for parallel plate flat burrs is that the two burrs are indeed parallel. Excess runout will cause vibration at resonant frequencies, for sure.

Measure using a dial indicator if you really wanna know the value. Talk to Chris if it makes you uncomfortable. IMO the level of tolerable runout is dependent on your threshold for things not being perfect, unless the thing dances on the countertop when it spools up or when you turn it off.

-Greg
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Link to "La Cimbali Junior - Burr "Wobble"?"by gscace on Wed Jan 02, 2008 4:43 pm

gscace wrote:Yeah, they've been known to ship them that way. In my case, the clue was that the grinder vibrated on the counter when I turned it off. To answer Ken's post and to answer the OP as well - I measured it with a dial indicator.

I returned the grinder and got another one Jr. from Chris, which was much better wrt radial runout, but not perfect. The grinder worked fine - I really liked some aspects of it, particularly the adjustment mechanism and the doser. The runout offended my sense of proper mechanical function, but I'm not sure if it really affects anything as long as the runout is not large (not large being somewhat squishy). The most important issue for parallel plate flat burrs is that the two burrs are indeed parallel. Excess runout will cause vibration at resonant frequencies, for sure.

Measure using a dial indicator if you really wanna know the value. Talk to Chris if it makes you uncomfortable. IMO the level of tolerable runout is dependent on your threshold for things not being perfect, unless the thing dances on the countertop when it spools up or when you turn it off.

-Greg


Glad to know that I responded to a 2006 post in a timely manner again. Doh!

-Greg
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Link to "La Cimbali Junior - Burr "Wobble"?"by zin1953 on Wed Jan 02, 2008 5:04 pm

You know what they say, Greg -- better late than never! :wink:
A morning without coffee is sleep. -- Anon.
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