La Cimbali Junior - Burr "Wobble"? - Page 2

[Ken Fox]

While I don't intend to hurt anyone's business, I am sure that for those of you who have purchased your Junior Grinders because of their quality, then you would also want original parts to be used to replace those that wear out.

I am concerned that, due to the price (which is not the most scientific method for determining quality) the burrs being offered as replacements above are not "original" Cimbali parts.

Should anyone want "original" parts for your grinders or Junior DT/1 machines, I urge that you contact Chris Coffee. Please ask him for "original" Cimbali O.E.M. parts and we will be sure that he is able to obtain them direct.

Hi,

Glad to see you posting here.

The rest of this is off topic, but since you seem to have Cimbali's ear I'd like you to give it to them with both barrels.

If you do any sort of search under my name on this website and alt.coffee and coffeegeek.com (and maybe elsewhere too) you will see that I have been one of the larger proponents of Cimbali equipment over many years. No doubt, my posts over the years have encouraged many individuals to purchase Cimbali espresso machines and grinders for home use, especially in North America but perhaps also in other English speaking countries. I own two Cimbali Juniors of different vintages, both purchased new, and both still in my home, plus 3 Cimbali grinders, 2 Juniors and a Cadet. Both of the espresso machines have been extensively modified, with details of the modifications given on this website and on alt.coffee.

Unlike La Marzocco, which does a very good job of working with the home enthusiast community and of taking suggestions seriously, Cimbali as a company has a very bad reputation for this (at least among N. American dealers) and among those who have bought their equipment for home use. My opinion, and that expressed to me by several dealers, is that Cimbali, the company, couldn't give a rat's a** about what anyone thinks; take the products or leave them, pay for them, and then go away. That is my honest opinion of this company.

This opinion is reinforced by the sort of reception that an individual gets if he goes to Italy and tries to visit the Cimbali factory, or if one approaches the Cimbali booth at the SCAA trade show. The Cimbali salesmen I have encountered at the SCAA in 2005 in Seattle reminded me of the sort of people who work as salesmen at used car dealerships.

Home users of this type of equipment (1 group Cimbali machines) might have some good ideas for future improvements of the equipment (which would in turn increase sales) however these ideas and opinions are never solicited and there is no public face of this company that anyone can contact. In comparison, I don't own a La Marzocco, but I know I could pick up the phone and speak with important American based individuals from that company if I so desired (I had dinner in a group that included two of them 2 weeks ago; the possibility that this would ever happen with a Cimbali exec. appears to be zero). Is it any wonder that LM has received an incredible amount of essentially free promotion on multiple sites (including this one) from hopeful owners-to-be, about their upcoming new model, the GS3? I don't recall ever seeing a post anywhere asking what Cimbali will come up with next; the potential customers have no more interest in this company than the company appears to have in their customers.

I have no idea how large the Cimbali home user base is in N. America, but I bet it is a lot larger than Cimbali would acknowledge. With a little care and feeding of enthusiasts/home users, this company could bolster its image, make some worthwhile improvements to the machines, and as a result, sell more equipment. With their current approach, home users will soon regard them as a producer of commercial superautomatic equipment and of no interest whatsoever.

I've said my piece.

ken

[T.J.]

Dear Ken,


First, Thank you for your business. You are obviously a man who cares about the quality of his espresso.

Your comments are encouraging in helping us to identify some serious missteps in our coverage of the "home consumer" market.
In fact, in some respects I agree with you concerning the difficulty in approaching our booth at last year's SCAA show. I was fortunately and unfortunately not at the 2005 SCAA show due to scheduling conflicts. I am a proponent of the idea of the SCAA, but also feel that trade show venue has been used to spread as much mis-information as it has been used to spread information. Armed with global statistics and a global understanding of the Specialty Coffee market, the SCAA serves to show a rather small side of the total picture......in fact, players that seem to loom large here in America are barely present in most other markets across the globe.

While we are always impressed with La Marzocco's specialty market penetration here in the USA, we also must consider the global market to which we all belong. I am very close and personal friends with Mr. Guido Bernardinelli who is the global sales manager for LM and have spent time drinking coffee and even building a Linea by hand with Piero Bambi in their facility in Tuscany. Therefore, I am quite knowledgeable about their equipment and North American sales presence.

To put matters into perspective, we must consider the market. We care deeply about the M-21 Junior DT/1 sales to the home consumer and are working on several improvements (ie. more gauges, boiler temp control, etc.) without drastically raising the price of the unit to the end-user. We feel that $3,000 to $3,500 is the upper threshold for the price home consumer's will be willing to pay and feel that the introduction of any unit with similar capability at $4,500+ would prove fruitless in terms of sales. Also, the M-21 Junior has tested in formal tests to maintain brew temp. balance consistent with several other larger commercial machines such as the Faema E-91, La Marzocco Linea and the Cimbali M-29. These are statistics which we feel speak for themselves in terms of pure quality.

You have been noted by many people within our network as an advocate of our equipment and we most certainly appreciate your factual coverage of our espresso equipment. Your criticism is therefore all the more important for us to acknowledge.

We are happy to note that we do not expect to fall into obscurity as the large scale producer of super-automatic espresso machines. Cimbali introduced the first super-automatic in 1964...the Superbar. Since then, while we have paved the way for this technology and are still the largest manufacturer of Super-automatic machines globally (our US market sales increased last year by over 35% with the introduction of the M-2 Barsystem), we still find our "bread and butter" to be our traditional machines. To put in plainly, La Cimbali is the leader in technology and production of both Super-automatic and traditional espresso machines. However, we don't want to consider that sales results alone are a barometer for good customer service.

Here in America we are proud to have several firms who have been dedicated to the Cimbali brand for decades. In New York, my company has been the master importer for Cimbali in the USA for almost 50 years. The same can be said in Los Angeles where Pasquini has been handling the Cimbali brand for roughly the same amount of time. In North Carolina, we are proud to have Tabor Espresso Company represent the brand for upwards of 25 years (there are dozens more dedicated professionals in each market across the country with similar experience). Long term relationships with independent distributors dedicated to one brand of commercial espresso machine is another barometer of our success in North America. In almost every market we have a dedicated and independent company handling our brand. In this way, our business platform assures that you get qualified help from a local professional. Unlike other firms which have you deal with local "salespeople" we find that in most markets across the globe you can deal with an owner of an independent company dedicated to the Cimbali brand.

While this business platform has some drawbacks such as our unified presence in the market during trade shows (ie. you don't find Cimbali importers wearing the same company shirt spewing the same marketing lines at trade shows), it also has some benefits (ie. you don't find Cimbali importers wearing the same company shirt spewing the same marketing lines at trade shows). In the end it is all about what floats your boat. We prefer the independent approach to our markets and try to find out what works in each city.....as a result (I encourage you to find 10 LM machines in Manhattan making coffee) sales could not be better and our clients could not seem happier when you deal with a Cimbali Importer directly.


We have also made several technical improvements of the M-21 Junior and the grinder which you fail to note in your critique. For instance, the old M-20 Junior DT/1 used a vibratory pump to reach brew pressure while the new M-21 Junior uses a professional grade volumetric pump. This is a considerable improvement. We also added a new touch-pad and CPU board to govern the function of the shot time. The machine is now fully ETL/NSF and UL approved. These major changes along with several minor changes have been made to improve both the experience of the Barista and also of the technician who works on the machine. Any company putting out as many machines as we do must make a concerted effort to maintain uniformity of production in order to insure that technicians around the world experience that exact same condition when working on the machine. Have you tried working on most other brands....have you noticed that solenoids, CPU boards and even wiring can vary from machine to machine.
We also introduced a new packaging for the Junior grinder which allows it to ship via UPS and save the home Barista quite a bit of money on shipping.

The M-21 Junior has the same brew group, the same pump, the same portafilter and the same heat exchanger as a full size La Cimbali espresso machine. Therefore it has the same attributes when producing espresso. Those attributes, to be quite frank, are that it is arguably the best machine available when considering technology, construction and implementation of its systems. If we accept this, then we can deduce that the Junior is not some mocked down version of a better self, but a one group version of the "original".

To compare the Cimbali experience in a metaphor I'd suggest the following. While the buying experience at Honda may be friendly and customer service oriented, in the end you are getting a car produced to go 55 miles an hour. Since the law and the constraints of society demand that 55 mph be respected, then great, a Honda will suffice. But in a world where there are no speed limits wouldn't you rather have a Ferrari..........the Cimbali is designed to do several hundred shots per hour in the highest volume Italian Cafes (and we have the sales numbers to prove that the overwhelming majority of the Italian foodservice and cafe market chooses a machine produced by the Cimbali group).....they are built for speed and for the most excruciating conditions......they are built, in essence, to go 200 mph all day long.
Now the ride may be bumpy and you may not get all the creature comforts (ie, the cup holder) but the Cimbali will surely do things that its competitors won't try.


The Cimbali group (which includes Faema as a second brand) maintains a market share of over 40% in Italy. This statistic is comprised of over 90% traditional machines. In Southern Europe, where we find a very educated specialty coffee market, our market share is roughly the same and also comprised mostly of traditional machines. In fact, we are confident that our single boiler HX technology leads all others in the ability to manage steam pressure and brew temperature control.

In 2006 we introduced the M-39 series, which revolutionizes the production and temperature stability of the brew. I would like to invite you to test drive on unit as soon as we get the first UL approved models here in New York.

Noting the enthusiasm and fondness that many consumers hold for the E-61 brew group, we made every effort to re-release this model using the original brew group design for the Faema E-61 (on the semi-automatic version). We hope to add a 110 volt version to the line with UL approval in the future. This would make the "authentic" E-61 brew group available to home consumers for the first time in over a generation.
To be honest, as someone quite familiar with the Faema E-61 brew group, the recent surge in the availability of E-61 group rip-off models has less to do with brew quality and more to do with the ubiquitous availability of the group to small garage manufacturer's in Northern Italy. The E-61 group may be romantic and readily available, but it has been replaced at Faema with new technology based primarily on brew performance.



Suffice to say, we care about our equipment and our clients and we feel that is evident through our continued growth in North America both in the professional "Away from home" market and also in the "At home" market.
You have my E-mail. Please feel free to let me know what you'd like to see improved on our home equipment that could help make the "At Home" Barista better enjoy their experience with the La Cimbali M-21 Junior and the La Cimbali Junior grinder.



Our goals within the next 24 months are to successfully launch the M-39, to successfully launch the new M-1 super-automatic and to consolidate our "At Home" presentation with better market support and a new drive to convey that La Cimbali is the overwhelming choice of the professional Barista and should also be the choice of the home Barista. In the end, we feel that quality and a long term commitment to the market will continue to prove fruitful for all of those who choose to buy an espresso machine or grinder based on quality and proven results (the Junior model has been successfully sold since the early 1970's) rather than fly-by-night firms who introduce opportunistic machines (ie. E-61 clones with romantic names and no history and poorly designed dual boiler machines with tiny brew groups and little or no temp control) to penetrate a market clouded by fog.

I will forward, with great interest, your post to the factory since I agree with you concerning our booth presence at the SCAA and also feel that Cimbali S.p.A. could take a greater interest in the home Barista. I hope that my response in some ways has given you a more three dimensional view of our market approach and shared some insights that have thus far been kept within our inner circle.

I feel the crema always rises. Time will tell.

Respectfully,

T.J. Tarateta
G.M. Ammirati Imports
La Cimbali

[Ken Fox]

Dear Ken,

(snipped for brevity)

Respectfully,

T.J. Tarateta
G.M. Ammirati Imports
La Cimbali

Dear TJ,

Thanks for your kind response, which is to my knowledge the first response of its kind in an online forum. By this I mean someone, anyone, in the "Cimbali Hierarchy" taking notice of and responding to the online coffee enthusiast community. I hope that you will continue to read posts here and continue to contribute.

There are a lot of good things to say about Cimbali equipment but when all the good things come from a handful of home users, this stuff gets lost in the wash and Cimbali machines get dismissed as just another iteration of "ancient heat exchanger" technology.

I've done a few things with my Cimbali Juniors to try to make them more temperature stable (electronic temperature control, e.g. "PID" in this context), and created preinfusion in my rotary machine with a very cheap and readily available delay timer, plus a pressure regulator on the input mains water side, a modification that cost about $25 plus the cost of the regulator which should have been on the water line in the first place. If I can do this sort of stuff myself, given no engineering experience or technical training, than certainly Cimbali can do this sort of thing quite easily.

If you continue to spend a little time with us in this venue and perhaps also on alt.coffee, a usenet newsgroup, you'll find that the online community is very much unlike the average person who goes out and buys an espresso machine. We are an odd collection of home enthusiasts and devoted coffee professionals. We tend to be fanatical about the coffee we use, with many of us homeroasting our own beans or buying only extremely fresh coffee from the best artisanal roasters. While the average purchaser may not be like us, a lot of them come to this and other online sites to research purchases before they make them. Even though they may never post, the stuff that gets posted is read by a very wide audience.

I guess this is my way of saying, "Welcome to the asylum, we're glad you came to join us "

ken

[T.J.]

Ken et al,

Thank you for your wishes of welcome.

I am quite aware of your exploits with our espresso equipment and your modifications have become somewhat famous with the engineers both here in New york and in Milan.

We are actually quite interested to hear of all of the different modifications that so many of you in this community have made to the Cimbali "original" design.

I hope to help factually convey our insight into the art of espresso production.....as you know we are a leading member of the I.N.E.I. and work closely with over 1,300 roasters across Europe to produce perfect espresso using their micro-and-macro roasts.

I am also quite an enthusiast myself in the tasting of different blends of coffee and have access to several hundred blends in Italy which are not available in the United States. One of my job perks is receiving, free of charge, hundreds of samples from obscure roasters in Southern Europe who are looking for distribution in the USA and feel that my firm is the best to handle the job.
While I have found a few coffees roasted in North America that reach a level of drinkability, I can say without reservation that the world of micro-roasts in Southern Europe outclasses our own domestic efforts. However; I look to the NAPA, CA wine insurgency on the world market as a template for our own domestic roasters.....unfortunately, it will be decades before we reach the European level of quality.

I hope that my response before offered some insight into the perspective of La Cimbali. A company this large sometimes has difficulty making itself feel warm and comfy to every client worldwide (that is why we have importers or exclusive distributors in most local markets). I myself remain available to anyone who would like to discuss those items with which I have intimate knowledge.

T.J. Tarateta

[Ken Fox]

Ken et al,

Thank you for your wishes of welcome.

(snippage)

I hope to help factually convey our insight into the art of espresso production.....as you know we are a leading member of the I.N.E.I. and work closely with over 1,300 roasters across Europe to produce perfect espresso using their micro-and-macro roasts.

I am also quite an enthusiast myself in the tasting of different blends of coffee and have access to several hundred blends in Italy which are not available in the United States. One of my job perks is receiving, free of charge, hundreds of samples from obscure roasters in Southern Europe who are looking for distribution in the USA and feel that my firm is the best to handle the job.
While I have found a few coffees roasted in North America that reach a level of drinkability, I can say without reservation that the world of micro-roasts in Southern Europe outclasses our own domestic efforts. However; I look to the NAPA, CA wine insurgency on the world market as a template for our own domestic roasters.....unfortunately, it will be decades before we reach the European level of quality.

(snippage)

T.J. Tarateta

Hi TJ,

In addition to importing Cimbali equipment, your company imports coffee from Europe. Many of us (myself included) do not regard valve packed coffee that was roasted weeks or months ago as acceptable. If the comparison is with similarly old, valve packed, American pseudo-specialty coffee such as Starbucks, I wouldn't be surprised to find the European stuff "better." If the comparison is 3 day old Black Cat from Intelligentsia, or other truly high end and truly fresh out of the roaster coffee, then the American stuff wins hands down.

Obviously, there is no arguing matters of taste. I have had fresh coffee all over Italy. They are striving for a taste profile that I find "correct" and "uninteresting," but that is just me. My own favorite at this moment is Single Origin MAO Harrar Horse, roasted in my garage in a sample roaster with the aid of thermocouple monitoring, and consumed before it gets to be 10 days old.

Even Illy's vaunted gas infused cans do not produce a product that many of us like; although seemingly fresh on opening the can, the stuff deteriorates markedly to the point where after 2-3 days I'd toss it.

As I said, we are a peculiar lot and most people out there are not going to roast their own beans at home, and are not going to pursue freshness to the extent that many of us do. We are "outliers" in a great many ways, not just in the things we do to espresso machines

Thanks for your response.

ken

[T.J.]

Ken,

I have had the opportunity to taste the "Black Cat" blend from Intelligentsia as well as most other coffees considered artisan coffee by the vast majority of readers to this site.

In fact, I often use (since I have them at my disposal) a Cimbali two group M-32, a Faema E-61 (original model) and LM Linea and always a Junior DT/1, to taste the same blend multiple times on multiple temps using several different grinders.
I will keep my opinion of "black cat" to myself as I do have respect for their enthusiasm and feel that the effort they make toward education is better than most other brands.

Matters of taste should never be argued, but I find the infusion of an espresso which is less than 5-7 days old to yield high oxygenation levels which produce a sour taste and small bubbles in the crema. I've noticed this result in many of the photos posted using "Naked" and regular portafilters. I am always surprised that no-one has really mentioned the fact that most of the photos which are posted show a coffee which should be thrown away rather than imbibed. The rule on tasting espresso (although we don't all have to follow the rules) is never taste/serve an espresso which has been roasted less than 5 days ago. The beans need to De-Gas and settle. This is considered by those of us in the field as the Mendoza line of espresso brew.......sort of like gravity....a rule not to reckoned with.

While I don't have it on hand, data produced by the I.N.E.I. has shown that espresso coffees yield better results weeks after roasting when packed and stored in the correct containers. I have also had the opportunity to taste Illy, Lavazza, Kimbo, Bonomi, Cafe Jesi, Mokarico and several dozens others at the roasteries. I am confident that most of the impression that these coffees lose its taste in valved bags is almost impossible for the untrained palate to notice.

While I am sure I will gather the ire of many who read this thread I will say it anyway.

Many of the perceived benefits to many of the products in the world are a result of marketing and not of strict scientific analyzation.
Consider that the apparent science behind many "artisan" fresh roasts has been produced through a marketing effort by those who can profit from the idea that "Fresh Roast" espresso coffee is markedly better than valve sealed espresso coffee. My lack of enthusiasm for the SCAA as an association stems from their implicit conspiracy to foster this myth with local "American" roasters.
In conclusion, I feel that the Specialty Coffee Association of America produces literature and sponsors a frame of thinking which is entirely un-American. In fact, their policies are protectionist, bigoted, based on poor science which has no support outside the USA and ultimately result in the spread of a mis-informed coffee culture that results in poor quality standard of espresso brew here in the United States. I find the vast majority of espresso coffees roasted here in the USA to be un-drinkable (if you care I can list the exceptions whom I feel do a good to great job with espresso coffee).

Also, the reason Cimbali chooses not to sponsor the WBC is purely a matter of finance. We are approached every year by the WBC and just do not see the benefit in spending six figures to finance this competition. Perhaps we will change our stance in the years to come, but that is where we are right now. Truth be told, almost 80% of machines manufactured by LM are shipped to the US. This accounts for just a few hundred units in total. Without getting into specifics, the Cimbali group sells easily three times as many in the same market.

Also, while I do feel that New York City is both the beacon of truth and taste for the whole United States, I have yet to see any domestic micro-roaster's coffee used in a serious capacity either in a Cafe or Restaurant in this market. While we do have a few mid-sized coffee roasters working in this market, the high end cafe and restaurant business goes to the high end Italian coffee roasters (even for filter coffee).

I also feel that when a firm is doing the volume, they can import coffee from Europe which is still quite fresh by accepted tasting standards.....for instance, my company imports 2-3 40 foot containers each month (a container is roughly 18,000 pounds). This coffee is "fresh" by I.N.E.I. tasting standards.

related article: http://www.freshcup.com/back-issu...6/2006-04/long.htm

The concept of freshness is based on both time, packaging and accepted tasting parameters by trained people....therefore, I feel the truth of freshness has yet to be established here in america concerning espresso coffee. Until it is established, we can expect the same mis-information to continue to emanate from our domestic micro-roasters and the protectionist SCAA.

The crema always rises. Time and truth will tell......along with a good amount of science.

Regards,

TJ

[gscace]

Hi Mr. Terateta:

I'm reprinting your quoted reply from Cimbali so I can reference it while I type. Here are the bits that I want to respond to:

1) By removing the hopper and the fixed burr holder, and activating the grinder motor, you will be able to see the revolving burr in movement. This movement may create an optical effect, making the rotating burr appear to be misaligned. In reality, with specific regards to our grinder, it is extremely important to be certain that the seat of the rotating burr is in alignment with the fixed burr holder. Moreover, during assembly, we couple and set the seat of the rotating burr with the fixed burr holder. This enables us to make certain that these two critical components will be aligned and completely parallel to each other.

2) We noticed a customer attempted to verify the rotation of the burr by using part of a plastic water bottle. I feel certain you'll agree that this is not the most accurate of methods. Without having the proper instruments on hand, we suggest that the best way would be through extracting an espresso, verifying its cup quality, and checking the dregs in the filter holder. Adjustments effected on properly aligned burrs will vary the overall taste and cup quality of your espresso. In regards to the dregs, if the espresso has been extracted using properly ground coffee, the dreg will be compact, solid, and almost completely dry. On the other hand, if you are left with a wet and broken dreg, there may be issues with the teeth or with the alignment of the burrs.

3) The final method for evaluating whether your burrs are aligned is by setting them so they are slightly in contact with each other. At the point of contact, they will make a high pitched sound, which should remain uniform and constant during rotation.



Points 2 and 3 are carried out by our service engineers during preventative maintenance visits. Proper maintenance will ensure the production of quality beverages throughout the life of your LaCimbali products. In conclusion, given what we know about this specific case, it is our opinion that the customer's grinder is in perfect working order. Should you have any further questions, please feel free to contact us.



Kind regards.



Maurizio Azzarello

I am a previous owner of a Cimbali grinder as well and have had some email exchanges with the original poster regarding this problem. I am a mechanical engineer with expertise in machine design, among other things. A couple of years ago, I bought a Cimbali grinder that exhibited similar symptoms. In my case I put a dial indicator on the rotating burr and measured the runout. Based on the results of this test, and the fact that the grinder vibrated across the counter when spooling down, I returned the grinder and got another one, which performed better. So the original poster's issue is not unique.

Most people don't have precision measuring tools in their toolbox at home. Just because they don't doesn't make them idiots. In point 2, of course a component of a water bottle is not an ideal measuring device. That doesn't mean there isn't a problem. From your quoted message, it appears to me that the problem was considered solved based on sub-standard measurements by the customer, and an arrogant assertion that there isn't a problem by the manufacturer. That's not customer service to me. Where is the message in which the quality assurance people in Cimbali offer to examine the grinder, measure the runout, compare the findings to specifications on radial and axial runout that surely exist, and correct the problem if it exists. Surely Cimbali would want to know if there are production problems with their grinders.

Sincerely,
Greg Scace

[Ken Fox]

Ken,

I have had the opportunity to taste the "Black Cat" blend from Intelligentsia as well as most other coffees considered artisan coffee by the vast majority of readers to this site.

In fact, I often use (since I have them at my disposal) a Cimbali two group M-32, a Faema E-61 (original model) and LM Linea and always a Junior DT/1, to taste the same blend multiple times on multiple temps using several different grinders.
I will keep my opinion of "black cat" to myself as I do have respect for their enthusiasm and feel that the effort they make toward education is better than most other brands.

Matters of taste should never be argued, but I find the infusion of an espresso which is less than 5-7 days old to yield high oxygenation levels which produce a sour taste and small bubbles in the crema. I've noticed this result in many of the photos posted using "Naked" and regular portafilters. I am always surprised that no-one has really mentioned the fact that most of the photos which are posted show a coffee which should be thrown away rather than imbibed. The rule on tasting espresso (although we don't all have to follow the rules) is never taste/serve an espresso which has been roasted less than 5 days ago. The beans need to De-Gas and settle. This is considered by those of us in the field as the Mendoza line of espresso brew.......sort of like gravity....a rule not to reckoned with.

While I don't have it on hand, data produced by the I.N.E.I. has shown that espresso coffees yield better results weeks after roasting when packed and stored in the correct containers. I have also had the opportunity to taste Illy, Lavazza, Kimbo, Bonomi, Cafe Jesi, Mokarico and several dozens others at the roasteries. I am confident that most of the impression that these coffees lose its taste in valved bags is almost impossible for the untrained palate to notice.

While I am sure I will gather the ire of many who read this thread I will say it anyway.

Many of the perceived benefits to many of the products in the world are a result of marketing and not of strict scientific analyzation.
Consider that the apparent science behind many "artisan" fresh roasts has been produced through a marketing effort by those who can profit from the idea that "Fresh Roast" espresso coffee is markedly better than valve sealed espresso coffee. My lack of enthusiasm for the SCAA as an association stems from their implicit conspiracy to foster this myth with local "American" roasters.
In conclusion, I feel that the Specialty Coffee Association of America produces literature and sponsors a frame of thinking which is entirely un-American. In fact, their policies are protectionist, bigoted, based on poor science which has no support outside the USA and ultimately result in the spread of a mis-informed coffee culture that results in poor quality standard of espresso brew here in the United States. I find the vast majority of espresso coffees roasted here in the USA to be un-drinkable (if you care I can list the exceptions whom I feel do a good to great job with espresso coffee).

Also, the reason Cimbali chooses not to sponsor the WBC is purely a matter of finance. We are approached every year by the WBC and just do not see the benefit in spending six figures to finance this competition. Perhaps we will change our stance in the years to come, but that is where we are right now. Truth be told, almost 80% of machines manufactured by LM are shipped to the US. This accounts for just a few hundred units in total. Without getting into specifics, the Cimbali group sells easily three times as many in the same market.

Also, while I do feel that New York City is both the beacon of truth and taste for the whole United States, I have yet to see any domestic micro-roaster's coffee used in a serious capacity either in a Cafe or Restaurant in this market. While we do have a few mid-sized coffee roasters working in this market, the high end cafe and restaurant business goes to the high end Italian coffee roasters (even for filter coffee).

I also feel that when a firm is doing the volume, they can import coffee from Europe which is still quite fresh by accepted tasting standards.....for instance, my company imports 2-3 40 foot containers each month (a container is roughly 18,000 pounds). This coffee is "fresh" by I.N.E.I. tasting standards.

related article: http://www.freshcup.com/back-issu...6/2006-04/long.htm

The concept of freshness is based on both time, packaging and accepted tasting parameters by trained people....therefore, I feel the truth of freshness has yet to be established here in america concerning espresso coffee. Until it is established, we can expect the same mis-information to continue to emanate from our domestic micro-roasters and the protectionist SCAA.

The crema always rises. Time and truth will tell......along with a good amount of science.

Regards,

TJ

TJ,

The best N. American espresso is different than Italian espresso; if the goal of the better roasters was to copy the Italian style, than I would agree with you that these artisanal roasters have failed miserably. But that is not what they are trying to do; they have their own styles. One can like them or one can hate them, they are what they are. I happen to like (some) of them.

I see the Italian "style" as being like blended scotch; the roaster attempts to produce more or less the same taste all the time, in spite of inevitable crop variations. This is most easily accomplished with coffees I generally consider bland. The better American blenders are more flexible, and willing to tolerate some variation because bean crops and availability change; the benefit is that they can produce what amounts to shots which provide an explosion of flavor.

If you were to drop me in a country and the only criteria to choose was consistent quality of espresso, I'd pick Italy hands down. This would not be because I thought the blends matched my taste, but rather because the basic standard of barista skills is high so the shots are generally technically well made. Most anywhere else in the world you'd get plonk most of the time. But if you gave me a choice of Intelligentsia in Chicago or a couple of places in Seattle or the Elysian Room in Vancouver, I'd take any of these places over any espresso I've ever had in Italy. That's just my opinion.

I don't think it is valid to say that because one works in the industry one knows what is best. There are many ways to acquire a palate, and there's a lot of folks on the eccentric consumer and professional side who have one. I've blind tasted a lot of espresso shots and been forced to make choices between them, as have others here. I've done the same with wine, and in the distant past was on a wine tasting panel for a publication. There is no magic, just the willingness to put in the time to learn what one likes, what one does not like, and why.

As to when a coffee drinks best as espresso, this is going to differ by the coffee and the water used. Water of what is often considered the "best" hardness, around 3-5gpg, produces more crema than cation softened water, which is what I use. I've had espresso made with both, and prefer the former, but the expense and effort of setting up a system that would give me this hardness, coupled with the need to descale, has stopped me from putting in a more involved water treatment system. With the water that I use, crema stops being excessive at the 3 day mark, and I find that the enhanced freshness from (generally) consuming in the 3-7 or 3-8 day after-roast-time-window compensates for some of what I think I lose by using acceptable but not great water.

As to barista competitions, they don't do anything for me personally but they do something for a certain segment of the market. That segment of the market can be ignored, but there is a trade off.

Getting back to my original post, and the comments about Cimbali's approach to home users, whether you think that Italian valve bagged coffee is better and I think that Black Cat (or my SO Harrar Horse) is better is immaterial. Whether Cimbali supports the WBC is also immaterial. What is material is that with the deafening silence coming out of this company over the last years the perception among the enthusiast community is that Cimbali uses "old" obsolete heat exchanger technology and has no interest in improving this or interest in interacting with their base of enthusiast users. The enthusiast users are the ones whose posts are read by the multitude of people who do not post on forums like this one, but rather are your typical purchaser who does online research before buying. I'd bet there are 10 or 20 or maybe even a hundred of those for every owner who ever posts.

I know for a fact that Cimbali is doing a lot of research and is continually improving their machines. I'm in the process of doing some thermometry with the Scace device looking at the impact of frothing on the temperature stability of shots made, and have been surprised so far at how little impact frothing has. Obviously this has been thought about in Italy in the Cimbali factory, because it would not be so if it hadn't been engineered in.

But if no one from the company ever interacts with us, then it is just a few misfits such as myself saying the same things over and over again, while at the same time other manufacturers give the appearance of being more client centered and responsive to their own enthusiast base.

I hope you will continue to participate here, and that you will encourage others in your organization and in Italy to become more visible to the enthusiast community. Your market presence and market share demand nothing less.

Have a good weekend.

ken

[sprsso]

I am new to this forum, but let me preface my response by saying that I spent almost 7 years as a Cimbali technician, 6 years with illycaffe and some other time with a distributor of Conti, Saquella, illy and Unic machines. I have spoken with T.J. on several occasions and have been trained by Maurizzio on all the Cimbali superautos.
I have a Cimbali Cadet, whose automatic function has been disabled, rendering it a Junior. It has recently replaced blades and is used every 3-4 days for drip and espresso coffee.
I too notice a wobble on startup and slowdown, neither phase of which is used to grind coffee. I attribute this to the baffling of the motor, not misalignment of the burrs. The motor shaft seems to go back and forth as maximum speed is achieved, allowing the motor to maintain stability, and coffee is best ground after stable speed is reached. This, in my opinion, is a good thing. Things happen as a motor/ drive assembly ages and a process that allows stability to be reached without damage to the critical components is admirable. If you observe the process of rotary pump drive , you will see the same thing, only faster. There is a visible quaking as the motor energizes the pump, and if you look closely, you will see the baffling on the pump base.
There are start and run capacitors on pump motors, and on grinder motors as well. The Cimbalis have, as I recall, 4 capacitors, to ensure proper performance at all levels.
Just let the grinder achieve maximum performance speed, and as long as the grind performance is really acceptable, don't worry about the warmup and slowdown.....al

[HB]

Welcome T.J. and thank you for sharing some of the background behind Cimbali's upcoming efforts to reach out to home baristas.

I also feel that when a firm is doing the volume, they can import coffee from Europe which is still quite fresh by accepted tasting standards.....for instance, my company imports 2-3 40 foot containers each month (a container is roughly 18,000 pounds). This coffee is "fresh" by I.N.E.I. tasting standards.

This week I'm travelling, but I could not help but notice this from the article you cited:

All of the Italian coffee companies I spoke to for this article said freshness was not an issue when importing coffee to the United States. With today's high-tech systems, coffees that are packaged and sealed properly can have a shelf life of up to 18 months. It can take two or three months for imported coffees to reach the United States, which still leaves many months before the coffee reaches its expiration date. In the United States today, the coffee you buy from large U.S. roasters may have been roasted four to six months ago. If this coffee is delivered to a retail store and a pound is used in a matter of hours after opening, staling should not be a problem. If that same coffee sits for days in the grinder, it will quickly lose many of the attributes required to produce a great cup.

The Long Voyage, The Fresh Cup

I was aware that Italian coffees enjoyed a leisurely ride across the ocean, but two to three months and an 18 month shelf-life?!? Let's say I store a pound of Black Cat in a dark cabinet. Do you believe that a group of amateurs would judge it acceptable after 2-3 months storage compared to a bag of 4-day post roast? Or is "accepted tasting standards" a measure of acceptable taste degradation?

[cannonfodder]

Good evening T.J. This certainly has been an informative and enjoyable conversation. Seeing you position in the equipment market and interaction with manufacturing and marketing, I have a question (or two) for you.

How do the manufacturers view the current and future status of the US market? With the emergence of the specialty coffee and home coffee market in the states, are we being targeted as the next big growth sector in the market or more of a necessary evil, an 'owe yes, we need to toss something to the Americans as well'.

With the perceivable jumps in technology and control systems over the past few years, are we looking at some innovative design changes and enhancements in the future?

[Marshall]

If you are still checking in T.J., could you comment on the following? I believe the enthusiasm for double boiler machines that you have observed among high-end U.S. consumers is driven by the special circumstances of home brewing. Left to stand idle for hours at a time, HX machines get quite hot and must be flushed with precisely enough water to cool to proper brew temperature. This introduces considerable variability into the brewing process. While it is true that most double boiler machines must be flushed "up" to brew heat, the flush tends to be minimal and, in the LM GS3, unnecessary.

At this point, the only HX reported to have "walk up" temperature stability is the new NS Aurelia, which is cumbersome to adjust and nowhere near home size.

I came very close to buying a Junior, but backed off largely for this reason. Is La Cimbali going to address this issue for home users, or am I totally off base?

[Nick]

T.J.,

With all due respect, this is the second thread in which you seem to equate sales volume with quality.

I'm a (relatively) short drive down I-95 down in Washington DC. I'd love to take a trip up to New York and experience what you believe to be quality espresso.

I'd hope that would involve pulling shots and tasting them. If you were to just show me pallets of Lavazza stacked sky-high, I'll be really disappointed.

[Ken Fox]

T.J.,

With all due respect, this is the second thread in which you seem to equate sales volume with quality.

I'm a (relatively) short drive down I-95 down in Washington DC. I'd love to take a trip up to New York and experience what you believe to be quality espresso.

I'd hope that would involve pulling shots and tasting them. If you were to just show me pallets of Lavazza stacked sky-high, I'll be really disappointed.

I have edited this response as well, from the original that I posted in haste.

I would like to see a discussion come out of this that can give people with opposing viewpoints and (yes,) agendas, a chance to understand each others position and maybe benefit the coffee community as a whole. With that in mind:

TJ obviously has a different perspective and orientation than many of us here (including myself) have. I have raised some of my own issues in my own response, but I think it is incumbent on industry professionals such as you, Nick, to raise those issues of importance to you. Therefore, I think you should specifically respond to issues you have with TJs post and hopefully he will respond to them.

I apologize for the absence of apostrophes in my post; my computer is failing to accept them from my keyboard and I am going to have to reboot!

ken

[King Seven]

I too have done some work with the INEI, and to me their goal seems to be reclaiming espresso and defining it specifically for Italy. (Which is a wise thing - espresso on its own is too wider a definition when you put a shot from Vivace on the table next to one from Illy[it seems an appropriate post to use the big brand names!])

I tasted, with the Odellos (who run the INEU), 4 different INEI certified blends, brewed by me and by them as they wished to taste them. The fact that I didn't enjoy a single one of them is neither here nor there. Dull, too much cheap robusta, a little old and flat they all were but if that is how you like your espresso then that is fine by me.

I work in a vaguely similar capacity to TJ - I work for an Italian machine importer in the UK, and we too get sent a lot of Italian coffee from little roasteries. I have only ever found one I enjoyed - ATT, who roast over wood and are based in Trieste, though the best shot I had of it was from them in Milan, where it was doubtless much closer to roast.

I enter barista competitions, and personally subscribe to a very different style of espresso preparation and a very different cup quality to what is expected in Italy. (I now take a great pleasure in watching the faces of people horrified that I am using more than seven grams, until they rush over and start to lecture me on it!) I think Black Cat is an awesome coffee, with great potential held within its beans. Italian espresso blends still seem to have deep roots in the cost of coffee, as Brazilian naturals and robustas have been staples of blends not down to taste but down to what was available to roasters in Italy at the birth and development of espresso culture.

I want espresso to evolve in different countries, with different styles, cups and preparations. This is a good thing. I am always ready to surprised by someone breaking the rules and still serving something incredible.

I think espresso machine manufacturers the world over have to realise that their kit is being bench tested more rigourously by the home market, who are able to open source their findings and fixes through the web, and they have to work with them and to some extent be a little inspired by them. I can see technological improvements really gathering pace in the next ten years, and some startling innovations in all aspects of espresso coffee.

Telling people what espresso is or, criminally, telling them what it should be will only act as a hindrance. Whilst I respect Italy for working hard to define its espresso I think it is a shame that there are some wonderful things they are doomed never to taste.

[T.J.]

Good evening T.J. This certainly has been an informative and enjoyable conversation. Seeing you position in the equipment market and interaction with manufacturing and marketing, I have a question (or two) for you.

How do the manufacturers view the current and future status of the US market? With the emergence of the specialty coffee and home coffee market in the states, are we being targeted as the next big growth sector in the market or more of a necessary evil, an 'owe yes, we need to toss something to the Americans as well'.

With the perceivable jumps in technology and control systems over the past few years, are we looking at some innovative design changes and enhancements in the future?

While I cannot divulge the juicy details of the advancements in new technology that we will see in the next 24 to 48 months, I am excited to say that the focus on the American market from the Cimbali point of view has now moved from interest in existing model sales to R & D for the needs of the American market. Of course, this is a business and they will choose those technologies that yield the greatest advantage from a sales perspective, but I am happy to say that the new brew group technology on the M-39 series is by far the most technologically advanced and thermobalanced of any I have seen in my years in this business.

The engineers at the Cimbali group are also focused on the intrinsic differences in brewing Italian style espresso (miscela di cafe) versus the rise of the single origin coffees with dark roasting complexions that are becoming en vogue in America.

While I don't expect that the traditional machine market will see any significant advances (other than the new M-39 brew group) over this period, I do feel that we are moving closer to defining a more perfect espresso through the use of volume dosed super-automatics with sophisticated pre-infusion characteristics and dual boiler technology.

[T.J.]

Welcome T.J. and thank you for sharing some of the background behind Cimbali's upcoming efforts to reach out to home baristas.


I was aware that Italian coffees enjoyed a leisurely ride across the ocean, but two to three months and an 18 month shelf-life?!? Let's say I store a pound of Black Cat in a dark cabinet. Do you believe that a group of amateurs would judge it acceptable after 2-3 months storage compared to a bag of 4-day post roast? Or is "accepted tasting standards" a measure of acceptable taste degradation?

The travel time from Italy to the USA is roughly five weeks door to door for high volume importers with direct brokerage routes and government cooperation. That is eons to many of you out there....however; I find that properly stored and packaged coffee can survive almost unblemished in flavor profile in the correct environment for many weeks.

I feel that if you put a bag of anything in a dark cabinet for 2-3 months without proper packaging then you will taste the degradation in the blend.

Packaging technology is key to trans-atlantic shipping.

For instance, any coffee that is shipped overnight via air will suffer weeks of degradation through pressurization. So if someone is thinking they'd enjoy a pound of coffee shipped overnight via air without suffering the result of the pressurization through the flavor profile is mistaken. Just a small point to consider.

[T.J.]

T.J.,

With all due respect, this is the second thread in which you seem to equate sales volume with quality.

I'm a (relatively) short drive down I-95 down in Washington DC. I'd love to take a trip up to New York and experience what you believe to be quality espresso.

I'd hope that would involve pulling shots and tasting them. If you were to just show me pallets of Lavazza stacked sky-high, I'll be really disappointed.

Nick,

I am not as familiar with your professional experience in the Specialty Coffee Industry as are some others who read this site, so I cannot offer a response specific to your professional experience. I have tried to be careful when separating the idea of quality and quantity in all of my posts when discussing the success of equipment or coffee roasters in the market.

With respect to your above post I offer the following response:

1. Was the NY Times' article focused only on the quality of the beans produced by those growers in Central America? or was it also discussing the intrinsic benefits that "fair trade" buyers can offer to many of the impoverished coffee growers all over the world. I feel it was doing both. Therefore, the first point of quality aside, I am considering the benefit that large coffee buyers and roasters can offer the growers through large scale "fair trade" purchasing.
2. It was the efforts few North american coffee professionals who encouraged and continue to encourage our suppliers (ie Lavazza, Segafredo etc) to move more of their buying toward "Fair Trade".

Rather than being offended by the fact that I illuminate that the one of largest commitments of any roaster in the world to "Fair Trade" coffee is by Lavazza, you should be excited to see that those firms which account for significantly higher quantities are now paying attention to the needs of many Central and South American coffee farmers.

My thread had nothing to do with "quality" and had everything to do with "quantity" because, yes I am happy to see a larger "quantity" of fair trade coffee purchased by rich countries. I am also interested in the fact that people who are interested in "Fair Trade" coffee buying have some information which they may not before been aware of.

Now, your second part of the post seems to me that you are calling me out on my taste preferences. I would hope that by this point, we can all agree that matters of taste are truly matters of personal identity and have little to do with objective truth. Then you follow with an insult suggesting that I simply classify quality through having a large warehouse filled with my own fresh roasted coffee along with hundreds of pallets of Lavazza coffee.

While I don't feel obliged to respond fully, I assure you that yes, we do actually pull shots of espresso and then (no it's really true) we actually drink them. Hopefully, you are not too disappointed.

[HB]

That is eons to many of you out there....however; I find that properly stored and packaged coffee can survive almost unblemished in flavor profile in the correct environment for many weeks.

Last year at the SCAA conference, I spoke with Andrea Lattuada, former Italian national barista champion. He was surprisingly critical of his home country's practices and lauded praise on US cafes and roasters (I recounted our conversation at length in Performance Anxiety). Back to our discussion, he bluntly said (paraphrased): Why use packaged coffees when genuinely fresh roasted coffees are available locally?

For instance, any coffee that is shipped overnight via air will suffer weeks of degradation through pressurization. So if someone is thinking they'd enjoy a pound of coffee shipped overnight via air without suffering the result of the pressurization through the flavor profile is mistaken.

HB's resident chemist offered his opinion in How well does coffee travel by airplane?

Even though the passenger cabin is pressurized, it is slightly below 1 bar. This means that the CO2 in the beans will have more volatility than normal. I would predict that the sealed bags will expand like a filled balloon during flight and then return back to normal appearance after landing.

In theory, this would mean a slightly shorter use life for the coffee, but probably not significant since your flights are reasonably short. The effect is much like taking the coffee to a ski resort at about 5000 ft above sea level for a few hours.

[cannonfodder]

Evening T.J. Glad to see we did not scare you off with all of the questions.

It is good to hear that the US market is starting to garner more than a second glance. Most all machines are retrofitted for the US power requirements which tend to result in an underpowered machine for home. The mass production of items like the PID controller have brought the pricing down to the point that an off the shelf tricked out machine is achievable, provided the market is willing to pay a slight premium. The upcoming GS3 being a prime example.

In matters of coffee taste, that is a subject of much controversy, and rightly so. Taste is a matter of personal preference. If it were not, we would not have hundreds of artisan micro roasters, not to mention the army of home roasters. If you enjoy Illy or Lavazza, than enjoy it in good health. My personal preference, I will stick to a fresher roast date, when my espresso blends hit 14 days, they go into the drip brewer at work.