Kyle Glanville with a Silvia and $80 grinder

[Marshall]

For those of us complaining about the "problems" with our $$$ espresso equipment, here is another reminder why the most important tool is on the handle-end of the system. Watch Kyle pour a nice shot with a Silvia and $80 grinder after just one adjustment: http://www.boingboing.net/2008/06/20/bbtv-a-morning-at-in-1.html.

[jamhat]

Great video. Kyle not only makes award-winning coffee, but he also seems like a genuinely nice guy.
Thank you for sharing.

[shadowfax]

Man, watching Kyle is so amazing. I think my favorite thing about him is how unassuming and friendly he is in light of his great talent. Plenty of great advice sans pretense. That's impressive and endearing.

[Marshall]

By the way, Part 1 was a guided tour of Intelligentsia's L.A. roastery. If you watch carefully, you'll see a photo of Jim Schulman at a cupping in their Chicago roastery. http://tv.boingboing.net/2008/06/15/a-morning-at-intelli.html

[kahvedelisi]

I watched his performance live at WBC via ustream today.

Great performance... BUT He was soooo calm and relaxed, made me think he could fall asleep anytime during his performance. If he makes to finals he should show more "enthusiasm" or add some "excitement" to his voice (ie. Heather Perry from 2007) so far in that aspect australian barista champion did better than him (it's not only the taste, it's also how convincing and well organized you are.. that's also one of the reasons why Hoffman won against Perry though hers was the best tasting espresso in competition.. tobacco??? uh yeah, I'm a chain smoker :p )

[tcampbells]

Extraction time and look might have been fine, but how did it taste? Mark Frauenfelder's look at the end when he tried the espresso really showed how it tasted! It didn't look like he liked it much.

45 second extraction time for a 5 cup Siphon! He is getting close to an espresso extraction time. Usually a 1 cup or 2 cup can get away with 45 sec to a minute but after 3 cups needs more time.

[Dogshot]

Yah, you tell Kyle how it's done Thomas!

I actually learned a couple of tidbits from the video:
1) that a low-temp shot will contribute to crema with a yellow appearance. I recently replaced the thermoprobe in my Brewtus II and am still getting used to the changes it has brought. I have noticed lately that a blend I am using has a yellow appearance.

2) that an over-extracted shot smells like burned wheat. Unfortunately, I have not burned any wheat lately, so I am not sure how to interpret that description.

Mark

[RegulatorJohnson]

burned wheat would maybe be some burnt toast??

or get some straight flour and burn it?

how bout the bottom of a pizza from a coal oven?

i bet if it just smelt of a generic burnt smell.

jon

[tcampbells]

Yah, you tell Kyle how it's done Thomas!

We, to be honest, just because he won the Barista championship doesn't mean that he is the best at all methods.
I am was chef previously and a very good baker (in my opinion) but that doesn't mean I was able to make every meal and every baked good better then everyone else.

We can all learn, we can all improve and find new ways of doing things. As he said, he is new to the method.

I don't mean to say that I am better then him, just that I am surprised by the way he is making it.

[shadowfax]

Yes, but what criticism of him did you really offer, that he didn't proffer himself? He described the first shot as overextracted, made a wild guess about how to temperature manage a machine that he'd never worked with before (and one that was way below what he's used to), and pulled a great-looking pour. It had one flaw that he pointed out instantly, and he would--no doubt--gladly have poured a second with his second temperature management guess (flush to 3, one thousand), and maybe gotten it right.

If your third shot ever on a Silvia was flawless, stand and be counted, right? I don't think anyone was saying he's better than everyone else. And I think Dogshot took issue with your comment because you seemed to act like Kyle didn't criticize his own shot and say what he would have tried the next time.

[tcampbells]

I believe there was a miscommunication on my part to get me idea across and I must apologize for this.

"but what criticism of him did you really offer"? - Actually I don't think I offered and criticism at all, I wasn't trying to be critical, but rather comment my opinion.

My comment was more on the way Mark looked when he sampled the shot. Kyle tried it, made a comment, but when mark tried it his face make it look like it was horrible. That surprised me. especially his "Yah" and at the end of the video the look on Mark's face.

My comments were more on how he made the siphon then how he made the espresso. Which is was what I said "45 second extraction time for a 5 cup Siphon! He is getting close to an espresso extraction time." Meaning he is producing siphon coffee almost as fast as he produces a shot of espresso. Most people have a longer extraction time for a 5 cup siphon coffee "Usually a 1 cup or 2 cup can get away with 45 sec to a minute but after 3 cups needs more time."

When Dogshot wrote "Yah, you tell Kyle how it's done Thomas" I though he was referring to how what I said about the Siphon. Which was why I said "We(ll), to be honest, just because he won the Barista championship doesn't mean that he is the best at all methods. As he said, he is new to the method."

and
"I don't mean to say that I am better then him, just that I am surprised by the way he is making it."

[shadowfax]

Thomas, thanks for explaining! I apologize for my part in the misunderstanding, I think it was probably my fault. You're definitely right that his looks after sampling Kyle's coffee are somewhat quizzical--he's definitely not in espresso heaven, or vac-pot heaven for that matter. I wonder what he's reacting to. You could certainly argue that the look on his face could mean, "darn, this guy is a pro?" or at least something along the lines of that the coffee was a bit much for him.

I like Kyle a lot, but I don't know that I care for the format of the video. I would have been much more interested in them picking out one machine (Silvia or the vac-pot) and doing several shots/brews on it and actually demoing how he made the adjustments to get it where he wanted it. I would have loved to see Kyle pull a shot he thought was great--on Silvia. With the POS grinder would have been super-impressive, lol. Anyway, Thomas, I apologize again for misreading your post and talking like I know what I'm talking about... just a "fanboy," I guess.

[tcampbells]

Maybe Mark does have that "OH My God! This is amazing. He is a master" look. Not the way I saw it, but then again, who knows. He looked the way my wife did the first time I served her espresso from my SILVIA (The day I received it with OLD Starbuck beans (about 6 months old)) Her looks are a lot better now, and she actually "Demands" coffee from Silvia in the mornings now.

with regards to the Silvia, I agree 100%. That would have been very interesting for me as well. I love to watch how people look, taste, adjust and make a perfect shot (especially with a grinder of that quality) That sure takes skill!

[DavidMLewis]

Why is he doing the water dance on a Silvia? Is he starting with the steam switch on?

David

[Psyd]

Well, mostly because, even with the 100c thermostat, Silvia will take water to the point where it will produce steam, and be far too hot to make decent espresso. If you run the pump til it stops producing boiling water, you have an idea (like, just below the local boiling point of water) of what the temp of the water coming out will be. Using that as a starting point allows you to have a reference to count from. If a four count is too cool, try a three. If it's too hot at three, try four, etc. It allows you the reference for repeatability, which is a bit of a watchword in espresso.
For me, with the 100C thermostat, I find that a lot of min work well with a two second wait after steam stops at my altitude.

[Dogshot]

We, to be honest, just because he won the Barista championship doesn't mean that he is the best at all methods.
I am was chef previously and a very good baker (in my opinion) but that doesn't mean I was able to make every meal and every baked good better then everyone else.

We can all learn, we can all improve and find new ways of doing things. As he said, he is new to the method.

I don't mean to say that I am better then him, just that I am surprised by the way he is making it.

The reason for my response to your initial comment is that we know nothing about the circumstances of that interview. There are lots of things going on in those situations, and lots of possible reasons why Kyle may not have been able to show his true skills. It is an assumption to guess that the shot was bad, and another assumption that Kyle intended to vacuum-brew exactly the way it came out; both those assumptions attributed a lack of skill to an otherwise proven performer.

And that's ok - I actually appreciate reading your point-of-view. I viewed the video with the hope of learning something from him, and you clearly viewed it from another perspective that had not even occurred to me. Pointing out his faults seemed pretty brave to me, thus my comment. I hope I did not offend you.

Mark

[tcampbells]

Dogshot, thanks for your response.

Actually I was watching the video for the same reason as you. Being a silvia user myself and knowing that I always need to improve my skill, I thought it would be very informative.

However the things I notice just surprised me. I figured that almost any shot Kyle would make (and would be shown of video) would have been at least OK. What surprised me, as I mentioned, was the look on Mark's face both when he drank the shot Kyle previously sample, and at the last frame of the video.

Though, what surprised me most was his method of using a siphon pot (Something I really did not expect in the video as I thought it was entirely a espresso video). Siphon has been a method I have learned and used for the past 10 year in Taiwan (one country which has never stopped using this method to make coffee, and is one of the main produces of siphon pots (besides Japan)). I was taught by different shop owners during this time as I have found better shops, who have been using siphons to produce coffee as far back as they can remember (2 of them are in their late 70s, and one is in his 50s) so I trusted their experience. Their methods are all very similar, though fineness of grind varies a little as does preferred roasting level.

During the video Kyle mentioned he was using a 5 cup siphon and he liked to steep it for 45 seconds. Why this surprised me, as mentioned, is that is the common thought of time for smaller cup siphon with a fine grind (see COFFEE-GEEK http://www.coffeegeek.com/guides/siphoncoffee where Mark states he steeps for 70 to 75 seconds with a lower flame for a 2 Cup Yama, but later posts in the Forum he says he has adapted his method to use a finer grind and slightly shorter steep time)

How long should you brew for? It's personal preference - the longer the brew, the stronger (and more bitter) the coffee will be. I like to give 2 and 3 cup siphon coffee makers about 70 seconds of full infusion time - 70 seconds after the last of the water "travelled north" up the siphon tube, I remove the heat source completely. For 5 cup models, a bit longer is good - probably 90-120 seconds (up to 2 minutes). And for 8 and 10 cup models, I give about a full 3 minute infusion time, depending on how controllable the heat source is.

- From the same article.

I would agree with you that it was an "assumption to guess that the shot was bad" - I was just using what I saw. The extraction time and volume seemed good though the color a little light (as Kyle mentioned.) Though the look on Mark's face was what would make it look bad. It could have been great. Not being there, not seeing everything that happened and not trying the espresso myself, I have no way of really knowing. I was not finding fault in him or his method, but rather surprised by Mark. His methods, which were rather amazing for a machine, if as the video showed, he only watched someone brew on and then prepared on shot himself, adjusting both the grind and temperature and getting it that close to great. I know it is not something I have the skill to do.

Though, to say that it was "another assumption that Kyle intended to vacuum-brew exactly the way it came out", I need to disagree. (though not in an aggressive way. )

He said he was using a 5 cup siphon, he outline his method, and he stated his steeping time. He stated that it was "becoming one of my favorite ways to make coffee" - implying that he has done it many times before. Based on that, it would imply that this is his "normal way of making siphon coffee". From that I was simply commenting on his method, the method he both followed and said he followed. No different then how other members comment on other members methods of tamping, leveling, and brewing espresso.

Though he is a Us Barista Champion, it doesn't mean that what he says or does it always the best. Even his methods will change or be tweaked with time (as do all of ours). I respect his skill and his performance, and know in many areas I could learn a great deal from him. But, I do not have a problem with commenting on his methods and i do not feel this is finding "faults" in him. I meant nothing negative to Kyle personally in my post, but just commented on what I saw and what surprised me. Contradicting what I have been taught and told by others.

PS - I was not offended, nor do I hope you were. One of the terrible things of forums is people seem to get offended too easily by comments of others they do not know. We use our own bias to assume an implied tone by the way people write and become offended by it, when it is often the case that no offence was intended nor should be intended. we are simply strangers who say things based on our points of view. In a normal face to face conversation we have visual cues, intonation and tone to react to. In a type post we only have words, and the way words are used differs from people to people.
No comment or writing I would ever put on a forum would be done so to cause offence to someone else I do not know. So if after reading my post, you feel I have, please stop, and realize it is not intended and then read my post again imagining it in a positive (or at least neutral way)

[Marshall]

Though he is a Us Barista Champion, it doesn't mean that what he says or does it always the best. Even his methods will change or be tweaked with time (as do all of ours). I respect his skill and his performance, and know in many areas I could learn a great deal from him. But, I do not have a problem with commenting on his methods and i do not feel this is finding "faults" in him. I meant nothing negative to Kyle personally in my post, but just commented on what I saw and what surprised me. Contradicting what I have been taught and told by others.

Your comments were, in fact, presumptuous. Kyle would be the last person to say "Watch this, if you want to see how I make a godshot." My point in directing people to the video was to demonstrate that a skilled barista could draw a decent shot from a cheap grinder and low-mid-range machine in two tries with a few, simple dosing and distribution adjustments. You took it as an opportunity to critique the shot and facial reactions as if you were a WBC judge at the finals.

[tcampbells]

I apologize. I should have said the following:

"I found mark's expression rather comical (both after trying the espresso and at the end of the film - I find it difficult to interpret the meaning of it.) Though Kyle's methods are enlightening. It leaves hope for the people who can not afford to purchase a $250+ grinder. It is interesting that Kyle says using a siphon to brew his coffee has become his favorite method. I wonder what kind of grind setting he uses to get such a quick brewing time for a 5 cup siphon."