KitchenAid Pro Line or Breville Conical Burr? - Page 3

[HB]

As an espresso neophyte I feel that my opinion will more closely reflect those amateurs on Amazon vs. the die-hards in here.

I don't put much faith in Amazon reviews, in part because I've observed cases where a negative review would trigger a flood of positive reviews within days (especially around the holiday shopping season... surprise, surprise). After many years of moderating forums, my "shill meter" is both sensitive and accurate. But who knows, it's possible this split opinion is rooted in the manufacturing process itself. Let's hope you're one of the lucky ones.

One last comment about "newbies" versus "diehards". Ironically, entry level equipment is among the most difficult to use because it lacks the consistency of the next step up. Jim says it well, so much that I nominated it Best Quotable Quote of 2007:

Newbies invariably attribute their inability to pull two identical shots in a row to the lack of sufficient equipment settings they can change between shots. The fact is that the entry level equipment used by newbies is much more unforgiving than the commercial equipment people buy after they decide they'll pursue home espresso. This creates a double whammy, the people with technique good enough to use entry level equipment have moved beyond it; and the people buying it will have their weaknesses mercilessly exposed. The upshot is that entry level equipment gets a lot of unfair criticism; and that newbies get a very long hazing learning to cope with it.

However, I believe Jim refers to espresso machines, whose shortcomings can often be ameliorated with various machinations. For grinders, it's closer to "what you see is what you get." If you're struggling with extraction inconsistencies after a couple weeks of practice (e.g., gusher followed by channeling followed by good extraction ad finitum), you'll know where to look.

[zin1953]

Jim's quote captures perfectly, I think, my ability to pull great shots (and make great microfoam) on my Gaggia Coffee over the past 15+ years, yet the quality of my espresso (and certainly my milk!) took a nosedive when I upgraded to a La Valentina . . .

Now, of course, I'm pulling much better shots on the La Val than I ever could on the Gaggia, but that's another story.

[hbuchtel]

As the only person recommending the KA for espresso on this thread I thought I should post with some realistic expectations for what it can produce-

Dannyboy21, I don't know what espresso machine you'll be using, but here is a shot from my grinder and an unmodified Presso (which is also 'said' to be incapable of making espresso!)

There is much less crema then in Ian's pic above, but it tasted quite good (14g Colombian SO- ginger-spicy, light body) and is not much less than what Jim Schulman was getting from the Presso... with a M3 grinder

Question about this grinder, is it using the KA cast stainless burrs? If not the info is irrelevant because they are one of the KA's main shortcomings.

You've got a good point (and thanks for your comparison of the KA and I2), but I find it hard to believe that the burr set in the KA (see the photos here) produces worse grinds then my grinder!



I guess what I'm saying is that, given enough time, good espresso can be made with equipment that is considered by many to be substandard. Just so it is clear, I'm not sticking with my grinder out of some masochistic instinct, but simply because I'm a student and imported equipment costs a lot! Now that there is a good grinder (the Laranzato HC-600) being made locally I'm going to pick one up.

(EDIT written before seeing hb's and zin1953's posts above)
The folks who are advising against the KA are probably hoping to save the OP a lot of pain, so I respect that... I just get irked when I see criticism of a grinder that I think works fine.

Henry

[zin1953]

Dannyboy21, I don't know what espresso machine you'll be using . . .

My guess is a Breville Ikon!

[DannyBoy21]

Good guess. Equipment hasn't arrived yet, but I can't wait! Thanks, Ian, for the coffee suggestion.

[zin1953]

Good guess.

Wasn't too hard, trust me . . . too bad no one would take me up on the bet! Well, one down, one to go . . .

[DannyBoy21]

What does the "one down one to go" part refer to? I couldn't possibly have gotten one part of the equation right, could I?

[spro745]

I just stumbled onto this thread and thought I'd throw my opinion out there. I own the Pro Line and the Infinity. I'll start with the Infinity. It's a great all-around grinder, especially for the low price. It does grind well for most purposes, but has a few issues. The way the grind adjustments are made makes it all but impossible to really fine tune it for good shots. I made mine stepless, but it's still a pain in the butt to find and maintain the perfect setting. Second, it does retain quite a few grounds. After grinding 40 grams for 2 doubles I only get back 37-38 grams. If you don't vacuum it out daily you will get stale grounds the next day.

Onto the Pro Line. I bought mine because I knew it could be radically modified and was dirt cheap. $120 for a new one from Amazon. I have since done lots of things such as made it stepless, removed the finger guard to promote better bean feeding, removed the gearbox and replaced the crappy grease with high temp. food safe grease due to a slight leak, made an aluminum chute extension so I grind right into the basket with no mess or static and finally took it completely apart and painted it because I hated the stock red color. I like lots of things about this grinder, the most important thing being the vertically mounted burrs. This allows the grounds to drop straight down and this grinder leaves next to nothing behind to go stale. Recently I cleaned the grinder out and ran 1 lb. of Black Cat through it and then cleaned it out again. I caught every single ground and it ended up being only 2 grams. 2 grams of grounds retained after 1 lb. of beans. Now to me that's a tiny amount compared to alot of others out there.

Will the Pro Line grind like a $300 Rocky or something higher? Probably not. BUT, it is the best choice for a long lasting, well built grinder compared to anything in its price range.

BTW, I e-mailed Jon Stovall several months ago and asked him how the Pro Line burr swap was going. He said it made quite a difference over a stock one. He also went on to tell me that even a stock Pro Line grinds much better than most people think and it doesn't deserve the bad rep it gets. I totally agree!

[cafeIKE]

...Infinity... After grinding 40 grams for 2 doubles I only get back 37-38 grams. If you don't vacuum it out daily you will get stale grounds the next day.

SOP here is run ANY grinder for few seconds to clean out yesterday's detritus.

Onto the Pro Line... even a stock Pro Line grinds much better than most people think and it doesn't deserve the bad rep it gets. I totally agree!

From this thread one could surmise the only ProLine consistency is its inconsistency.

[zin1953]

So, let me understand . . . you own an Infinity. But in order to get it to work even close to the way you want it to, you have made it into a stepless grinder, yet "it's still a pain in the butt to find and maintain the perfect setting." (The grinds aren't that much of an issue -- as Ian says, SOP -- unless you're retaining way too much . . . )

And you also own a KA Proline, but in order to get IT to work right, you have: a) made it stepless (again), b) removed the finger guard, c) removed the gearbox in order to replace the lubricant, d) made an extension to make it (in a sense) doserless; and e) took the entire thing apart to paint it a different color. Do I have that right?

So I'm left with two questions -- well, three really: a) how much is your time worth per hour, and how much do you think this grinder really cost you; and b) ever thought about buying a stepless, doserless grinder from the get-go?

[spro745]

Well you make it sound as if I bought cheaper grinders one after another just to work on them. Not really the case. I bought the Infinity a few years and that was all I was allowed to buy. A marriage, mortgage, kids, medical bills, etc. wreak havoc on a few dreams like "the perfect espresso setup." When you have a life-threatening illness you learn to put things in perspective....... I recognized the Infinity's shortcomings and made a few minor mods to make it work better. Even though it's stepless the way the grinder is made makes it hard to tune it in and keep it there. No real reference points to speak of. And I don't care what others say about grounds retention not being a problem. You can't simply run the grinder for a few seconds and get all the stale grounds out of this thing. It must be vacuumed out daily to maintain freshness.

My next stop was to buy the Pro Line. I don't exactly have $300+ to spend on something as simple as a grinder. The manufacturers must know this and think these chunks of metal are way more valuable than they really are. I'm also a natural born tinkerer. I don't care if I owned a Versalab M3 or whatever. I would tinker with it and try to make it better. So when I bought the Pro Line it was natural for me to come up with some mods to make it even better.

I don't care what my time costs, because after all it is just time. We all have it one way or another. And some people aren't satisfied with buying something that is over the top and being satisfied. Is it more practical to buy a $200,000 Ferrari and be satisfied? Or buy a $20,000 Mustang or used Viper and make a few modifications and have something bada$$ for alot less money? Personally I get alot of satisfaction in taking something less than great and making it outstanding for less money than others choose to spend.

[zin1953]

I don't care what my time costs, because after all it is just time. We all have it one way or another.

Valid point.

I'm also a natural born tinkerer. I don't care if I owned a Versalab M3 or whatever. I would tinker with it and try to make it better. So when I bought the Pro Line it was natural for me to come up with some mods to make it even better . . .

. . . Is it more practical to buy a $200,000 Ferrari and be satisfied? Or buy a $20,000 Mustang or used Viper and make a few modifications and have something bada$$ for alot less money? Personally I get alot of satisfaction in taking something less than great and making it outstanding for less money than others choose to spend.

Well, let me tell you where I'm coming from -- my thinking is simply this: if you're a "natural born tinkerer" (which I presumed from all your mods), then I would have sought out a top-quality used grinder -- think Mazzer or Macap, to name but two manufacturers -- from a place like eBay, Craigslist or the member forum on CoffeeGeek. In other words -- it may not be a Versalab, but I'd at least start with something worthwhile and turn the Viper into a Ferrari (to use your analogy). After all, that's at least somewhat feasible . . . turning a VW Beetle into a Ferrari is not.

[mhoy]

I'll try to take a picture some morning (not my best time, always rushed), but my Anita and KA Proline can produce 80% crema with fresh beans. Yeah, it's not the best grinder, but it can certainly do a good job. (I've done some tinkering with it, but it only took 10 minutes). I have no comparisons with a better grinder so it's only my opinion.

Mark

[cafeIKE]

I have no comparisons with a better grinder...

No offense, any comparison with any other grinder?

If yes, what improvements were noted?

[Whirly blade whackers don't count as grinders ]

[mhoy]

No offense, any comparison with any other grinder?

If yes, what improvements were noted?

[Whirly blade whackers don't count as grinders ]

No offense taken, I should have written, "no comparison against any other grinder", instead of "any better grinder".

Yeah the whirly blade one doesn't count, nor should I count the pre-grinding at Peet's/$tarBucks/etc. Not counting the cans of pre-ground Illy, nor the coffee pods either.

When a good deal comes along I'll probably pickup a better grinder. I'm not in a big rush to spend more money (that's reserved for the Elektra rebuild ).

Mark

[DannyBoy21]

How's this for funny? My whirly blade grinder makes a better shot of espresso than using the pre-ground "espresso blend" from Peet's found at the supermarket.

[zin1953]

It's not particularly funny. I think it's a bit sad that someone would be using pre-ground coffee from a supermarket -- regardless of the specific roaster or brand. That said, we all have to start somewhere, of course, and one hopes we've all progressed beyond that point now . . .

As far as blade grinders are concerned, those, too, are something that we have all probably owned at one time or another, and progressed beyond . . . .

[zin1953]

Yeah the whirly blade one doesn't count, nor should I count the pre-grinding at Peet's/$tarBucks/etc. Not counting the cans of pre-ground Illy, nor the coffee pods either.

Agreed!

When a good deal comes along I'll probably pickup a better grinder. I'm not in a big rush to spend more money (that's reserved for the Elektra rebuild ).

Mark, if you're ever up Berkeley way . . . who knows? Maybe we can play on my Elektra and learn a few things together?

[cafeIKE]

My whirly blade grinder makes a better shot of espresso than using the pre-ground "espresso blend" from Peet's found at the supermarket.

With what coffee and which espresso machine?

Unless one compares hwacked Peet's whole bean espresso blend of the same vintage as the preground, all bets are off.

[DannyBoy21]

The whirly blade produced a better shot with stale and frozen Starbucks whole beans than the Peet's pre-ground did. Both in a Gaggia Carezza.