KitchenAid Pro Line or Breville Conical Burr? - Page 2

[zin1953]

Let's focus on reviews, and leave the mods for another post . . .

Here's a favorable first-look from Coffeegeek where they mention the calibration (talked about in the manual, apparently) to make the machine grind finer or coarser depending on your preferences. http://www.coffeegeek.com/proreviews/firstlook/kitchenaidprolinegrinder/details. Although some people say that the grinder can choke their machines out of the box, so the finer adjustment might not even be necessary.

Amazon reviews are across-the-board enthusiastic: http://www.amazon.com/KitchenAid-...lic/dp/B00030IEJG/

Perhaps it's me, but I find it very difficult to take Amazon's online reviews seriously. Heck, I find it difficult to take some consumer reviews seriously on CoffeeGeek, here, or on ANY online forum unless and until I get the feeling of knowing and trusting the individual from reading his or her posts and have some mutual reference upon which to judge. (For example, if someone raves about a specific wine that I have experience with and also enjoy, I am more likely to give weight to that person's review of a wine I haven't tried before; conversely, if I dislike the wine he or she raves about . . . )

And, although I am picking and choosing among many coffeegeek reviews, here's one: http://www.coffeegeek.com/reviews/grinders/kitchenaidprolinegrinder/JoeZone. Here's the full list of coffeegeek reviews http://www.coffeegeek.com/reviews/grinders/kitchenaidprolinegrinder.

Let's look overall for a moment. 56 reviews is a lot of reviews -- more than, say, a Mazzer Mini (45)! The "score" averages 7.8 on a scale of 1-to-10. The Mazzer Mini (admittedly more money and out of your price range) averages 9.3. Rancillio's Rocky has 58 reviews and averages 8.9. Gaggia MDF, 25 reviews, 8.0 rating. Ascaso, 20, 8.2. You can grab a whole lot of numbers . . . I'm not sure it proves anything. After all, it's not the number of reviews, but the quality of the reviews (as well as -- obviously -- the quality of the machine itself!) that matters.

Clicking the "JoeZone" link you provided leaves me scratching my head. Kent Simmons' review describes it as "too coarse for espresso," and the author describes selling it on eBay and buying a Rocky instead!

I can understand budgetary limitations, Danny; but I cannot understand why you seem so wedded to the idea of a KA (unless you've already purchased it, in which case the discussion is moot).

Admittedly, a lot of reviews say that the grinder is not acceptable for espresso, but honestly, I find those reviews in every single grinder under $500. The espresso community is certainly diverse and vociferous (and more power to them!), so it seems hard to please everybody.

I honestly don't find reviews that say every grinder under $500 is unacceptable for espresso. Maybe we're looking at different places.

One more thing . . .

At the risk of opening myself up for more tomatoes, do all of your same criticisms apply to the KA when the machine is recalibrated to a 250 micron finest grind and the stepless mod is added?

First of all, never take tomatoes seriously. We are a passionate bunch, it's true, but don't take it personally.

Finally, about those mods -- even with the mods, though, I'd call your attention to what Henry Buchtel wrote:

If you do get the KA, I think the stepless is absolutely necessary, but I didn't notice any difference after doing the teflon tape mod (about 4 months ago). I am looking forward to upgrading my grinder to see what (if anything) I've been missing.

He did the mod four months ago, and is looking forward to upgrading . . . .

Cheers,
Jason

[DannyBoy21]

No, I haven't already purchased the KA, but I'm honed in on it b/c I can get it for $160 at B,B and B (with their 20% off coupon). From what I gather, one reason grinders get mixed reviews is that the machines people are grinding for are always different. I think the problems of something like a KA are exacerbated when you have a higher quality espresso machine. But I'm probably going to purchase a Breville Ikon, which is itself on the lower-end side of things, and so it might work better with a grinder of its own quality, yes?

[HB]

But I'm probably going to purchase a Breville Ikon, which is itself on the lower-end side of things, and so it might work better with a grinder of its own quality, yes?

Actually, it's just the opposite.

You can compensate for many of an espresso machine's shortcomings with extra effort (e.g., temperature surfing, pressure modifications, different baskets). With a grinder, it's either got it or it doesn't. You can take your chances on the KitchenAid's mixed reports and it may work out great (Henry) or work out badly (Ian). If you have the same troubles that Ian reports, there's little hope of recovering much of your investment on resale. A good grinder holds its value better because experienced espresso hobbyists know they keep going and going and going...

[zin1953]

But I'm probably going to purchase a Breville Ikon, which is itself on the lower-end side of things, and so it might work better with a grinder of its own quality, yes?

No. A cheap grinder won't make a cheap machine better because they're both cheap. But a really good grinder can make a mediocre machine better . . .

Besides, why are you looking to get a machine with a pressurized basket/portafilter?

You're looking to spend -- what? -- $300 on a machine, and $200 on a grinder? Am I right? $500 total? (And, of course, the same quality for less money is always preferred!) Well, I think you may have missed the sale Peet's was having on a Coffee Gaggia ($225, I think, down from its regular $299), but I think it's still within your budget and -- IMHO -- a significantly better machine. (uh, 26 reviews; 8.2) I've had two of these machines over the past 15 years -- still use one of them in my office, and it's g-g-g-g-g-reat! for the price point.

Granted, I paired it with a Gaggia MDF grinder, but the Le'Lit should work great, too. And at $229 (vs. $299 for the MDF), no sales tax, and free shipping, you're still UNDER your $500 budget (which I presume does not include tax, just because -- well, just because I presume your budget doesn't include tax!)

[RapidCoffee]

No, I haven't already purchased the KA, but I'm honed in on it b/c I can get it for $160 at B,B and B (with their 20% off coupon). From what I gather, one reason grinders get mixed reviews is that the machines people are grinding for are always different. I think the problems of something like a KA are exacerbated when you have a higher quality espresso machine. But I'm probably going to purchase a Breville Ikon, which is itself on the lower-end side of things, and so it might work better with a grinder of its own quality, yes?

Danny, let me pose the obvious question: why ask for advice if you aren't going to listen? This goes for your posts on CoffeeGeek as well as H-B. You've gotten lots of good suggestions, and so far you're disregarding them all.

Notice that nobody here is recommending the KAP (or Capresso) as an espresso grinder, and I predict that nobody will recommend the Breville Ikon as an espresso machine. OTOH, you will get numerous recommendations for entry-level Gaggia espresso machines, which can readily be found for under $200 on sale. If you're willing to go used, here is an eBay auction for $150 shipped that includes a tamper, pitcher, and cups. You've already gotten some good grinder recommendations, to which I would add the Nemox Lux for $170.

So for slightly over $300 you can have a complete entry-level espresso setup, capable of excellence in the cup. But go ahead and disregard all our advice if you want. You'll get it figured out sooner or later. We're just trying to help you make it sooner.

[DannyBoy21]

I'm not ignoring anybody's advice, Rapid, and I bristle at the implication. I've been nothing but humble and deferential throughout my posts, as I understand that I'm consulting with people who have much more experience in this arena than I do. And I'm certainly not going to come on here to blame anybody if my machine choices don't satisfy me. I understand that I am building my own palace or digging my own grave.

[cafeIKE]

But I'm probably going to purchase a Breville Ikon, which is itself on the lower-end side of things, and so it might work better with a grinder of its own quality, yes?

No.
At the time I purchased the KA, I had a Solis SL-90 I'd tweaked, an arguably decent entry level machine. Grinders were a Solis Maestro and a PeDe hand crank. Over the years, several guests had raved about the espresso. It was OK.

After the KA arrived, the espresso went to hell in very short order. Drippers followed by gushers. If I went back to one of the other grinders, no problems, so I was reasonably certain the SL-90 was still OK.

After about 4 months of utter frustration, I bought a Macap MC4 based on the recently discovered H-B review. The espresso immediately recovered.

About 9 months ago, a fellow Angeleno contacted me about his Breville machine and grinder combo as he was unsatisfied with his shots. He brought his gear over and we tried pulling a few Supreme Bean Dolce Terra. Sinker followed sinker. Next we tried the Breville grinder on the Vibiemme. At the finest setting, we could not pack enough coffee in the basket to get a shot anywhere close. Next we tried the Macap on the Breville. While we could get volume and time close, the temperature was all over the place as is typical of low end machines.

Finally, after he was satisified we were just wasting coffee with the Breville gear, he pulled his first shot on the Vibiemme / MC4. Picture perfect and yummy. A few weeks later, his Brevilles were replaced with a used Vibiemme and MC4.

We all wish you the best in your quest and hope you avoid wasting your money as so many of us have done.

[zin1953]

I'm not ignoring anybody's advice, Rapid, and I bristle at the implication.

Don't bristle, and don't ignore . . .

Danny, people have been pretty consistent in this thread. In 20+ out of 27 posts, people have been steadily suggested to you that the KA grinder are not the best choices you could make, and you have been pretty consistent with your replies:

-- "So, if you had a gun to your head, you would choose the $90 Capresso Infinity over the $200 Kitchenaid Pro Line?"

-- " . . . do all of your same criticisms apply to the KA when the machine is recalibrated to a 250 micron finest grind and the stepless mod is added?"

-- " . . . I'm honed in on it [the KA] b/c I can get it for $160 at B,B and B (with their 20% off coupon)."

I asked if you'd already purchased it precisely because you seemed to be wedded to the KA even though no one came back at you and said, Great choice! As I pointed out, even the one "semi-supportive" comment was from someone who did the mods and -- after four months -- was looking forward to an upgrade. Even the review you linked to -- the individual got rid of the KA on eBay and got something different.

John merely said the same thing I did, albeit perhaps a bit more bluntly.

NO ONE, Danny, is trying to fight with you, argue with you, or otherwise put you down. You have received a lot of very good suggestions here. People here have no private agenda; people here are merely trying to give you the benefit of their past experience. But so what? It's your money; it's your choice; and you are certainly free to get whatever machine you want (and you will!).

[hbuchtel]

(...) but your comment strikes me as overly broad and mildly inflammatory. (...)

I'm genuinely sorry it came across that way. I should say that it wasn't directed at anyone in particular, but rather an impression built up from reading the many posts regarding the KA grinder on Coffeegeek. To explain in more detail, it seemed that most posters who were negative about the KA were in that painful stage of espresso making where the internet is full of chocolate and fruit and the kitchen is full of bitterness...

I certainly went through that particular stage (and am slowly working my way out ) learning how to make espresso with a KA lookalike (actually Jericho clone) and a Presso, but can now make quite good and fairly consistent espresso on that same setup, thus my comment.

On the other hand, there is also a few people who have been able to compare the KA directly to quality commercial grinders, and they all say the commercial grinders are better. That is not such a big surprise though... and a comparison with a cheap conical (?) such as the Le'lit would be more fair. I haven't seen a head-to-head before... can anybody point to one?

Sorry to have taken the thread off in this direction! To Danny, maybe just get the grinder you prefer and stick with it until you feel an upgrade coming. It'll take longer achieve your goal then if you get pro-sumer equipment but you'll get there in the end.

Regards, Henry

[joellawry]

To back up the comments here - the grinder totally is key.

When i started out i had a Solis SL90 - a great little machine, but it was paired with a cr*ppy grinder.
While i was searching for a second hand grinder i found my current machine - an E61 Expobar HX machine with a built in Cunill grinder. (i still have no idea what the machine's actually called but its a fully commercial machine!)

I had to re-build the espresso machine, but straight off the pot the grinder worked and with the Solis machine it was AT LEAST (literally) 30x better espresso (i see no point in exaggerating {however i seem to find copious amounts of brackets amusing... hmmm}) - now that it is paired with the E61 Machine the espresso isn't actually all that much better in my opinion - just easier.

ANYWAY!!!

back to the point i have been trying to make - if someone offered me a Mazzer Super-Jolly or a Versalab M3 for free on the condition that i could only use the SL90 with it - i would JUMP at it!!

The grinder is three quarters of the equation (at least) so don't skimp on it!!

[cannonfodder]

The conversation is getting a little heated. So let me suggest something very simple. Go to bed bath and beyond and get one. Try it out for a couple of weeks. If you don't like it, return it; if you do like it, then hang onto it. It is as simple as that to resolve.

Personally, years ago when I was starting, I thought they were good. Heck, I even had the KA proline espresso machine at one time. Then I learned what good was and never looked back. To each his own.

[RapidCoffee]

John merely said the same thing I did, albeit perhaps a bit more bluntly.

Thanks for putting it so diplomatically. I apologize to Danny and others on this thread for any feathers I may have ruffled with my inflammatory language. That said, I do believe the OP has gotten some great suggestions from very knowledgeable people, both here on H-B and CG, and should stop rejecting their advice. I guess that makes me a blunt instrument, 'cause I just don't know how to state it any more gently.

I'll now leave this thread to those with the "tactfulness" gene, which I so obviously lack.

[ntwkgestapo]

OK, I've been 'away' for the last few days (now clawing my way back up from the "tastebuds, we don't need no stinkin' tastebuds" side of the flu), so I hadn't seen this thread at all until just now.

BUT, that being said, I can say that while I never purchased one, I DID look @ the KitchenAid grinder a few years back, when it was new, and wasn't impressed at all. AND, at that time, I wasn't as "astute" about espresso as I am (ha!) today. It just had too many things wrong with it, as I saw. Too much "wobble" in the burrs, too coarse steps, etc. AND at that time, the only grinder I had to compare it to was my Solis 166/Starbucks Barista burr grinder!

I CURRENTLY use the Le'Lit PL53 that's been mentioned before in this thread with my Gaggia Factory (manual lever) espresso machine and, while I'm SURE I'll upgrade the grinder at some point in the future, for now, it's a GREAT dedicated espresso grinder (due to it's extremely fine adjustment, it's only good for ONE type of grinding, in my opinion. Pick one, espresso, drip, french press. It'd be good for any ONE of those, but NOT good for swapping between them!).

When I ordered my Le'Lit my Gaggia was back for some warranty repair and I first tried it with my old Starbucks Barista espresso machine and, for the FIRST TIME EVER, got a GREAT espresso from that machine! 7 years of trying and I'd gotten a few "good" espressos, but never a GREAT one. Second shot from the machine with the Le'Lit was fantastic! Dark, rich crema (and LOADS of that!), great taste, etc. Getting MUCH better from the Gaggia now on a regular basis, but...

I'd really recommend you spend more on the grinder (and it doesn't have to be a LOT) and get something that'll allow you to experiment with the OTHER variables (beans, temp, etc). Many of the grinders mentioned here, the Ascaso's, Gaggia MDF, Rocky, etc., will work fine and provide years of use... My "lust, lust" grinder is the Cimbali Max hybrid and that's what I'll probably upgrade to... Just my $0.02 worth.

[zin1953]

Hey, Danny --

WholeLateLove.com has a refurbished Gaggia Coffee for $223.50 (free shipping; no sales tax), as opposed to $299 (free shipping; no sales tax) brand new. See here: http://www.wholelattelove.com/outlet/products/newcoffee.cfm?cid=2

With the money you save on that, you can easily afford the Le'Lit!

[danetrainer]

espresso with a KA lookalike (actually Jericho clone)

Question about this grinder, is it using the KA cast stainless burrs? If not the info is irrelevant because they are one of the KA's main shortcomings.

and a comparison with a cheap conical (?) such as the Le'lit would be more fair. I haven't seen a head-to-head before... can anybody point to one?

Ok, I went down that road, first let me say I love the KA, the slow speed, quiet, mine happens to provide a fluffy grind...but the shortcomings are summed up entirely by Ian:

DoReMi bears no relationship to the KA grind quality. The KA is a stylist's, not an engineer's, creation.
I tried to make two ProLines work because I really liked the style.

- stepless
- eliminate burr wobble
- grind* burr cutting faces flat
- grind* burr mounting surface parallel to cutting surface

It's hopeless.
When eBay'd, the ad read NOT suitable for espresso

If the grinder budget is $200 and the KA ProLine was free, I'd choose the Le'Lit.

*aerospace machine shop.

So, my next purchase was the Ascaso I2 with conical burrs (I'm told the same burrs as the Le'Lit) I am not sure if the rest of the grinder is comparable, but I have already reworked the I2 twice and I am still not
satisfied with the grind...The burr carrier moved up and down by as much as 1.5mm and I have since shimmed it, and the upper burr housing was barely a thread into the lower housing before the burrs made contact, so I shortened the dispensing paddle under the lower burr so the upper carrier would thread in further and be stable enough! I grew up in machine shops, so this is not a big undertaking...BUT, the point is as an "end consumer" I should not have to modify the engineers design to make it function properly!

I now bought a Fiorenzato commercial grinder that was trashed...on ebay for $20 and now have a better starting point than either of the "budget" $200 grinders. The quality of the housing, castings, and machine
work will provide the needed stability to get an excellent grind out of it with new burrs.

I have not owned a Rocky, but may think that might be the lowest starting point for a new grinder, although I have read a lot of concerns with it in reviews...so I can't speak of my experience with it.

As nearly all the previous posts have pointed out, focus on getting a better grinder.

[gislipals]

I owned a KA at one point (found a half priced display item) and I'll also throw my hat in the 'not good enough for espresso' basket (which to be honest is more overfilled with hats than an Aussie's portafilter is with grounds) .

I think the reason the KA discussion doesn't seem to die out completely is that there are some people who are either pulling a major Vladimir Pozner for the KA grinder cause, or that they are geniunely getting passsable results.

That suggests that the the cast burrs and assembly might just be really inconsistent, and that once in a while, a KA grinder is put together right enough for passable grinding. Unlikely though... I'm more inclined to think that some people are just trying to defend it after having blown alot of money on the thing, or that they're comparing their espressos with superautos or something.

Mine, at least, had a WILDLY broad range of grinding, with a fines-to-flakes range on most settings. The problem was never that it didn't grind fine enough.

[DannyBoy21]

Well I went ahead and purchased the KA, even with all of your cautionary voices floating around in my head while I did it! As an espresso neophyte I feel that my opinion will more closely reflect those amateurs on Amazon vs. the die-hards in here. And that's not to say that I am not thankful for your advice. And I will report back on my results (and try to do it without any bias!).

[cafeIKE]

Well I went ahead and purchased the KA

You'll need some good coffee, that's easy to pull. So, may I recommend
West Coast Roasting Espresso Torro.
Nate's local to Los Angeles, roasts every day and ships same day via USPS 2nd day [mine arrives in one]


Espresso Torro after about 20 seconds. YUM!

And I will report back on my results

Please do... say in about 30 years when your shots look this good...

[gislipals]

Well I went ahead and purchased the KA, even with all of your cautionary voices floating around in my head while I did it! As an espresso neophyte I feel that my opinion will more closely reflect those amateurs on Amazon vs. the die-hards in here. And that's not to say that I am not thankful for your advice. And I will report back on my results (and try to do it without any bias!).

Brave man. Btw, you should check the consistency of your grinds and if it's particularly uneven, call KA and ask for a replacement burr citing that as a reason, I seem to recall people on that big CG review thread doing that and getting a positive reply - KA might be aware of the finicky nature of their cast-made burrs

[zin1953]

Well I went ahead and purchased the KA. . . .

I wish you luck. Sincerely.

As for the rest -- well, I've made my predictions. I look forward to your report.