Izzo Alex Duetto first pictures - Page 2

[eastpresso]

Sorry, none is planned. There is only a handful of units coming to the US in 2008. We'll revisit this question when the production picks up.

According to a mail from Chris' Coffee the machines (edit: 110 V 20A 60Hz ONLY) have been ordered and are expected somewhere around September.

With all the enthusiasm - keep in mind that it's a new machine. The durability of the electronics in the locations they are mounted now (PID as well as SSR are very close to the boilers), usability of the PID in that location (between hot group head and hot water tap) and servicability (AFAIK no boiler drain and no access to the heating elements from below) are things to be considered. Having said that I am sure that CC will take care of their customers and think of improvements (if needed).

Just my 2 yen.

[chris]

First of all I would not call 54 machines a hand full. That is how many are on order right now that will be ready for shipment the end of the month. They will definitely be ready then because they close for the entire month of August for Holiday. Those will be here the end of August. When Izzo gets back from Holiday in September they are going to start building more machines for me that should be here in November. Therefore if all goes according to plan I will have over 100 units for sale before the end of the year.

Now I need to correct the previous post. These machines are 110 volt, but they are NOT 15 amp. They are 20 AMP ONLY.

[DaveC]

With all the enthusiasm - keep in mind that it's a new machine. The durability of the electronics in the locations they are mounted now (PID as well as SSR are very close to the boilers), usability of the PID in that location (between hot group head and hot water tap) and servicability (AFAIK no boiler drain and no access to the heating elements from below) are things to be considered.

Another correction for you.

A bottom plate can simply be unscrewed (4 machine screws), giving full access to the heating elements.

The 25A SSR is near the brew boiler, the switching is so brief during normal operation that it's not under a very high loading and is 6 x more amperage than the load (because of the temperatures). Mine has been on 16 hours per day with no problems for the last 2 months.

Steam Boiler can be easily descaled as it almost drains completely, so quite easy to flush out descaler. The brew boiler is no harder than an Isomac Zaffiro to descale....so the lack of boiler drain fittings is not a major disaster and they would have been quite hard to use.

[eastpresso]

First of all I would not call 54 machines a hand full. That is how many are on order right now that will be ready for shipment the end of the month. They will definitely be ready then because they close for the entire month of August for Holiday. Those will be here the end of August. When Izzo gets back from Holiday in September they are going to start building more machines for me that should be here in November. Therefore if all goes according to plan I will have over 100 units for sale before the end of the year.

Now I need to correct the previous post. These machines are 110 volt, but they are NOT 15 amp. They are 20 AMP ONLY.

Thanks for the update - the 15 amp info was provided by your staff - probably just a misunderstanding because it's a new product.

[eastpresso]

Another correction for you.

A bottom plate can simply be unscrewed (4 machine screws), giving full access to the heating elements.

The 25A SSR is near the brew boiler, the switching is so brief during normal operation that it's not under a very high loading and is 6 x more amperage than the load (because of the temperatures). Mine has been on 16 hours per day with no problems for the last 2 months.

Steam Boiler can be easily descaled as it almost drains completely, so quite easy to flush out descaler. The brew boiler is no harder than an Isomac Zaffiro to descale....so the lack of boiler drain fittings is not a major disaster and they would have been quite hard to use.

First of all thanks for your very detailed review- good to hear about the access plates - any pictures?

The SSR at espressoparts.com is spec'd at 70C http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf/2934540.pdf the PID will be less than that (my Omron is spec'd at 55C) The brewboiler is running at 90+. The (uninsulated) steamboiler is probably running at 120+. What is the inside temperature after 16 hours with both boilers running?

No offense but 2 months is not long enough to make any judgement. Other manufacturers put the electronics under the drip tray on the bottom and/or install a fan for a reason.

[cafeIKE]

The Gicar PID is probably spec'd to 40°C.

At 70°C, a 25A SSR without heatsink is good for about 2A.
At 50°C, with a 10cm x 10cm x 1cm iron plate, about 7A.
Stainless is a poor thermal conductor and the group is heating the front panel, so the SSR capacity is probably in the area of 5A.

[EDIT : 'Spec'd to' is not the same as Maximum operating temperature. Accuracy and longevity are reduced at higher temperatures. Having twice replaced the controller in my kitchen oven because the unit roasted itself, blown lamps and PSU in HDTVs due to inadequate cooling and directing the replacement of about 7 million failed capacitors due to elevated temperatures, I'm particularly sensitive to conservative implementations:
PID under the machine runs at room temperature
SSR at the coldest part of the chassis keeps SSR cool
Heatsink capable of maintaining full capacity up to 40°C ambient ensures full power when needed
All give no pause in expecting a decade or more of reliable service.]

[networkcrasher]

Speaking of a Gicar PID. Does anyone know how to interface into the serial port on it?

[chris]

The Gicar PID is probably spec'd to 40°C.

I called Italy this morning as well as performed my own tests on the machine I have in my display room. First of all the specs of the Gicar PID controller are for 0 to 60 degrees C NOT 40 degrees C. See page 6, section 3.1 here. Second my test confirmed what Izzo told me. The demo machine I have is currently running approximately 51 degrees C which is exactly what they told me. Izzo thought they could do better even though they were within Gicar's specifications. Since Izzo does all their own stainless steel fabrication they redesign the top covers on the machines and added more ventilation at the top. This will promote a convection type cooling since the bottom of the machine is very well vented, adding more vents at the top will lower the temperature surprisingly quite significantly. This is the same thing Jim Gallt had us do on the Alexia and the internal temperature, by simply adding more opening at the top, dropped several degrees. I do not see this as an issue, both Gicar, Izzo, and myself have done our homework.

[networkcrasher]

See page 6, section 3.1 here.

Does anyone have an English version of that doc? I was able to dump the doc to text (took a bit of work - has weird Italian fonts embedded in the PDF) and get a translation, but its not the best translation.

[eastpresso]

I called Italy this morning as well as performed my own tests on the machine I have in my display room. First of all the specs of the Gicar PID controller are for 0 to 60 degrees C NOT 40 degrees C. See page 6, section 3.1 here. Second my test confirmed what Izzo told me. The demo machine I have is currently running approximately 51 degrees C which is exactly what they told me. Izzo thought they could do better even though they were within Gicar's specifications. Since Izzo does all their own stainless steel fabrication they redesign the top covers on the machines and added more ventilation at the top. This will promote a convection type cooling since the bottom of the machine is very well vented, adding more vents at the top will lower the temperature surprisingly quite significantly. This is the same thing Jim Gault had us do on the Alexia and the internal temperature, by simply adding more opening at the top, dropped several degrees. I do not see this as an issue, both Gicar, Izzo, and myself have done our homework.

Sounds good! Thanks a lot for providing this info Chris. Just for reference - How long had the machine been running and what is the temperature in the showroom? Measured at the top I suppose? Can you upload a parts list or provide a link?

[Stephen Schulman]

Marshall,

I still say that incedent is how you made your bones in the coffee industry. Third degree burns are an ocupational hazard and scars are badges of honor. Seriously, a warning sticker isn't such a bad idea. However, I hate warnings in coffee cups that say contents hot.

Stephen Schulman