www.paradiseroasters.com: passion for coffees of distinction and quality

It's driving me mad! Expobar Brewtus II vs Isomac Tea vs Izzo Vivi vs... ?

Need advice about equipment or want to share your latest discovery?

Link to "It's driving me mad! Expobar Brewtus II vs Isomac Tea vs Izzo Vivi vs... ?"by darrian on Wed Aug 15, 2007 4:28 pm

Hi guys, I'm new too the group and would like some advice.

All these machine roughly fall in the same price bracket, the brewtus is obviously a different concept.
I'm looking for an upgrade for my gaggia classic and have narrowed down to these three.

Hearing and reading lots of stories about Brewtus temp controller failure without good simple solutions.
Not reading too much about Vivi, wondering about temp stability and possible tweaking of thermostat
Its east to find critics of the brewtus, but not of the other two, but I must say the brewtus intrigues me.

Will be using machine for one or two morning shots and latte [for the other half], afternoon lattes and loads of weekend shots and lattes plus occasional entertaining. Would like my wife to be able to use machine, but are confident that she will be able to master a relatively demanding machine.

Any advise, thoughts and opinions are welcome, preferably not too biased.

Thanks.
darrian
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Aug 15, 2007
Location: united kingdom

Link to "It's driving me mad! Expobar Brewtus II vs Isomac Tea vs Izzo Vivi vs... ?"by cafeIKE on Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:06 pm

Not sure of the UK pricing, but the Vibiemme Domobar Super is a good choice
Review here : http://www.home-barista.com/forum...r-super-t4019.html
User avatar
cafeIKE
 
Posts: 1140
Joined: Jun 27, 2006
Location: Woodland Hills, CA
www.wholelattelove.com: our caffeinated commitment to you
www.wholelattelove.com: our caffeinated commitment to you

Link to "It's driving me mad! Expobar Brewtus II vs Isomac Tea vs Izzo Vivi vs... ?"by darrian on Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:30 pm

More expensive !
darrian
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Aug 15, 2007
Location: united kingdom

Link to "It's driving me mad! Expobar Brewtus II vs Isomac Tea vs Izzo Vivi vs... ?"by Niko on Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:46 pm

Out of those choices, I'd go for the Brewtus II.
Double boiler baby! :D
I think the temp control on it is rather nice and I haven't heard anything about them failing more than any other machine.
User avatar
Niko
 
Posts: 279
Joined: Feb 07, 2007
Location: S.F. Bay Area/Sacramento, CA

Link to "It's driving me mad! Expobar Brewtus II vs Isomac Tea vs Izzo Vivi vs... ?"by darrian on Wed Aug 15, 2007 5:51 pm

Apparently the thermostat controller goes on the blink very frequently in the UK !
darrian
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Aug 15, 2007
Location: united kingdom

Link to "It's driving me mad! Expobar Brewtus II vs Isomac Tea vs Izzo Vivi vs... ?"by Niko on Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:11 pm

I wonder if that has something to do with the difference in voltage? It's still a nice machine to consider. Have you personally spoken to anyone in the UK that owns one? I'd definitely go play with all those machines you mentioned, spend some quality time with each if you have access to that luxury.
User avatar
Niko
 
Posts: 279
Joined: Feb 07, 2007
Location: S.F. Bay Area/Sacramento, CA

Link to "It's driving me mad! Expobar Brewtus II vs Isomac Tea vs Izzo Vivi vs... ?"by darrian on Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:15 pm

Its made for 220 volt in spain, but perhaps coping better with 110......................

Should I consider Quickmill Andreja Premium ?

Any views on build-quality of Izzo/Isomac/Quickmill ?

Here we go again, endless choices, its infuriating !
darrian
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Aug 15, 2007
Location: united kingdom

Link to "It's driving me mad! Expobar Brewtus II vs Isomac Tea vs Izzo Vivi vs... ?"by Randy G. on Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:26 pm

darrian wrote:More expensive !
I know that these questions cannot always be answered accurately, but how long do you intend to keep this machine? How much use will you get out of it? I would say that once you are spending $1000-1200 USD for an espresso machine you may as well look for the one that will serve you for many years and spend the extra now to enjoy for a decade or more.

I have a Silvia, recently retired, that I used for over 6 years. Dollar for dollar, that would mean that the Vibiemme Domobar Super I now have should be good for the next at least the next 18 years or so. By then I would be older than any male has lived in my immediate family for quite some time...

If you keep a machine for ten years, and pay an extra $300 for it, that's only $2.50 a MONTH! For less than ten cents a day more we can put you in this beauty right now. Wouldn't you like to drive this home? Think of it-- you could be making espresso with this machine first thing tomorrow morning... Grab this handle and just take in that new espresso machine smell... Mmmmm.... That's fresh Italian air... What? Call the wife.. Sure.. it's just that.... well, MY wife let's me make decisions, but if that's how your marriage works, then please, use my phone... Go ahead and talk- I'll be right back. I need to go see the manager so we can laugh at you together through that big glass window behind you. :wink:
Espresso! My Espresso!
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
User avatar
Randy G.
 
Posts: 619
Joined: May 12, 2007
Location: Yankee Hill, CA

Link to "It's driving me mad! Expobar Brewtus II vs Isomac Tea vs Izzo Vivi vs... ?"by Niko on Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:39 pm

The QuickMills are fantastic machines, they have some nice heavy duty parts that last a long time with the proper care and maintenance.
Someone in my family had an Andreja Premium for at least 2 trouble-free years until he sold it and as far as I know the new owner couldn't be happier.
User avatar
Niko
 
Posts: 279
Joined: Feb 07, 2007
Location: S.F. Bay Area/Sacramento, CA

Link to "It's driving me mad! Expobar Brewtus II vs Isomac Tea vs Izzo Vivi vs... ?"by darrian on Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:57 pm

Randy G. wrote:If you keep a machine for ten years, and pay an extra $300 for it, that's only $2.50 a MONTH! For less than ten cents a day more we can put you in this beauty right now. Wouldn't you like to drive this home? Think of it-- you could be making espresso with this machine first thing tomorrow morning... Grab this handle and just take in that new espresso machine smell... Mmmmm.... That's fresh Italian air... What? Call the wife.. Sure.. it's just that.... well, MY wife let's me make decisions, but if that's how your marriage works, then please, use my phone... Go ahead and talk- I'll be right back. I need to go see the manager so we can laugh at you together through that big glass window behind you. :wink:


Isn't that JUST what the problem is, trying to make a well informed choice, without getting distracted by salesmen/women !
darrian
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Aug 15, 2007
Location: united kingdom

Quick Mill Andreja Premium, ECM Giotto

Link to "It's driving me mad! Expobar Brewtus II vs Isomac Tea vs Izzo Vivi vs... ?"by boar_d_laze on Wed Aug 15, 2007 7:20 pm

Darrian,

You're looking for a top-drawer E-61 HX with good steam performance. Although you're intrigued with the Brewtus, you're put off by rumored unreliability. Assuming you cannot plumb in, you might limit your short list to the Quick Mill Andreja Premium and the ECM Giotto. The machines are sufficiently similar in overall quality that you can buy by looks, price, and relationship with a preferred retailer.

While the list may not be fair to Isomac, Expobar, Izzo, Grimac and any number of other builders -- so what? It's fair to you Don't torture yourself. There are other choices in your price range as good, possibly a few better, but none so much better as to create a quandary. Choose, brew, enjoy.

Life is short, so is ristretto,
Rich
boar_d_laze
 
Posts: 56
Joined: Jun 04, 2007
Location: Monrovia

Link to "It's driving me mad! Expobar Brewtus II vs Isomac Tea vs Izzo Vivi vs... ?"by magnim on Sat Aug 18, 2007 3:48 am

I'm new to this forum as well, and I can definitely appreciate what you're going through...

I was looking at the Isomac Tea and the Anita, and later added the Andreja Premium to my short list - and was trying to decide for the last couple months.

A few days ago I brought home the Andreja Premium, a couple things that helped me decide were things like the finish of the machine, the steam and hot water handles, and the insulated steam and hot water pipes. It really helped being able to touch and feel the machines - trying out the switches and steam valves etc.... and the ones on the Andreja just 'felt' better to me.

Good luck!
magnim
 
Posts: 1
Joined: Aug 18, 2007
Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada

Link to "It's driving me mad! Expobar Brewtus II vs Isomac Tea vs Izzo Vivi vs... ?"by Randy G. on Sat Aug 18, 2007 9:12 am

OK.... Seriously:

In this price range , all the machines are going to be fairly close. Many will share some of the same components like pressurestats, control boxes, and pumps.

My primary concern would be to find one that makes the best possible espresso. This does not necessarily mean one that has a PID or has two gages instead of one, and so on. Espresso quality comes from the way the water is delivered to the coffee (dispersion pattern as well as flow rate), temperature stability and repeatability. Just because the pipes of a machine are insulated means nothing. A good machine with uninsulated pipes could mean that it was designed that way to work best. A machine with an insulated boiler could mean that it was designed in a way that it had so much heat loss that its heating element could not keep up. I am not commenting on any specific design feature nor machine nor manufacturer, but stating that simply looking at features or design does not mean good coffee.

If you have locked yourself in a price range and have no flexibility, make a list of the machines in that range that acceptable to you. Do a spreadsheet of features in the order of importance to you and give them a point score. Then go to http://www.coffeegeek.com and look at the user reviews. Specifically look at the negative comments only as to what people did not like about the machines. Do the same list and subtract those points from the totals.

I hesitate to recommend my machine to you because it is out of your price range as well as being the only HX machine I have ever used, so my opinion is compared against nothing. But I will offer this- the previous machine I used for 6½ years was Silvia and Rocky. Silvia was PID'd for a good three or four years. My current HX machine makes better coffee all the time than the Silvia, and I have only had it for about two months- same water, same coffee, same grinder, and consistently better coffee. So I would say that whatever you get, you will be ahead of the game. Be wary of similar reports (and mine as well). I would offer that few home baristas have ever had REALLY excellent espresso. They may be making better espresso in the home than they ever had tasted, but all the espresso they have ever tasted may have been sludge.

I do my own service work on my machines, and I tend to keep things around for quite some time (still have the motorcycle I bought in 1981 and still have the wife I boug... errr... married in 1971). I try to buy things that are dependable and easy to service. That may not be important to you. The point is that just because someone else has a machine they love and recommend to you does not mean it will be the same for you.

The best source of information is probably here on HB because of the hard data available. The recent graphs showing temperature stability of the Vibiemme Domobar as well as the graphs Eric posted of the Silvia are good examples.

Don't get me wrong-- I already have a long list of things that could have been done better with my Vibiemme.

Take all that, then ignore it, and get the machine YOU want....
Espresso! My Espresso!
http://www.EspressoMyEspresso.com
User avatar
Randy G.
 
Posts: 619
Joined: May 12, 2007
Location: Yankee Hill, CA

Link to "It's driving me mad! Expobar Brewtus II vs Isomac Tea vs Izzo Vivi vs... ?"by edwa on Sat Aug 18, 2007 10:11 am

Sorry to sound like a broken record, but what grinder are you using or going to upgrade to? I ask because I once had a Gaggia Coffee Classic paired with a Gaggia grinder but the grinder was not up to the demands of a better machine.
User avatar
edwa
 
Posts: 261
Joined: Sep 25, 2006
Location: Los Angeles

Link to "It's driving me mad! Expobar Brewtus II vs Isomac Tea vs Izzo Vivi vs... ?"by darrian on Sat Aug 18, 2007 11:31 am

Thinking of Macap MC4.

D.
darrian
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Aug 15, 2007
Location: united kingdom
www.dailygrind.com: artisian roasted coffee and espresso equipment
www.dailygrind.com: artisian roasted coffee and espresso equipment

Link to "It's driving me mad! Expobar Brewtus II vs Isomac Tea vs Izzo Vivi vs... ?"by luca on Sat Aug 18, 2007 11:53 am

Hi Darrian,

I think that when you get to this sort of price level, the differences between machines tend to be small, but significant. Worse still, manufacturers might well make their machines slightly differently for different markets; for example, I got to have a quick play on the vibiemme domobar here in Australia a few weeks ago and was surprised to see that it seemed to run very hot, whereas the 110V version is reported to be pretty good in that regard (I think that the Australian importer is going to do something about it, though). You might be better off heading over to the TMC forum and asking for some opinions there, or posting another thread and asking the UK members who frequent this site.

Cheers,

Luca
User avatar
luca
 
Posts: 379
Joined: May 23, 2005
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Link to "It's driving me mad! Expobar Brewtus II vs Isomac Tea vs Izzo Vivi vs... ?"by darrian on Sat Aug 18, 2007 11:57 am

luca wrote:Hi Darrian,
whereas the 110V version is reported to be pretty good in that regard

Luca


True,

I think the same goes for the Brewtus, a lot of problems in the UK, not in the states, thermostat gives up quickly with 220V.
darrian
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Aug 15, 2007
Location: united kingdom

Link to "It's driving me mad! Expobar Brewtus II vs Isomac Tea vs Izzo Vivi vs... ?"by edwa on Sat Aug 18, 2007 7:29 pm

darrian wrote:Thinking of Macap MC4.

D.


is that the same as the MXK?

Sounds like a good choice after reading this thread
http://www.home-barista.com/forum...r-robur-t4499.html

There's alot to agree with in Randy G's opinion. Something else you have not mentioned is a shopping list of preferred features, ie. plumbed vs pour-over. They are personal and probably every point on a list you make has been debated to a large degree. In the end, is it going to nag at you two years down the road if you didn't get that feature? It would be nice to have a crystal ball to see ahead to know what's going to really matter. Before buying a year ago I didn't know that, for me, rotary vs. vibe would end up being a non-issue compared to having a machine direct plumbed. I also wouldn't care if it was a 53mm or a 58mm PF compared to having a direct draining pan. Double boiler vs. Hx for me came down to, not enough counter space for the Vivaldi and not enough faith in the Brewtus 2 compounded by complaints from posters on the retailer that sold them. I can't say enough about the importance of a good customer service if you don't have the mechanical resources and knowledge of someone like Randy G. Thermostat control or PID?, that one got a hold of me real good, and put me through indecision for days. I even installed Eric's adapter on my Volante and have a controller that just reads out the temperature before it hits the head. But, after getting the hang of the flush, I'm not far from Bob Yellin's rules of thumb and, have verified that my shots taste very close to what I've tasted at the roaster's I bought it from - ie. Supreme Bean and Klatch Roasting. Albeit from memory during the drive home to my machine, rather than having them side by side. Like you I gave the Brewtus a lot of thought, to me it looked really good on paper. After that, was the Marte that Luca owns, but nobody carried them in the States. La Val was neck and neck with the Vetrano, Fiorenzato Volante, and Andreja Prem. Izzo didn't exist then. Christ, I even built styrofoam mock-ups to see how much counterspace was being lost. Finally, years of filling and draining Miss Silvia and exterior dimensions became the factors that created a decision from an admirable field.

I fully realize my point of view falls into the saying (cleaned up for publication), "opinions are like rear ends, everyone's got one and they all stink."

May the Schwartz be with you.

P.S. After being to the SCAA 2007 I have serious Elektra A3 envy but fortunately neither the cash nor the counterspace.
User avatar
edwa
 
Posts: 261
Joined: Sep 25, 2006
Location: Los Angeles

Link to "It's driving me mad! Expobar Brewtus II vs Isomac Tea vs Izzo Vivi vs... ?"by darrian on Sun Aug 19, 2007 5:44 pm

edwa wrote:is that the same as the MXK?


http://www.macap.it/

D.
darrian
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Aug 15, 2007
Location: united kingdom

Link to "It's driving me mad! Expobar Brewtus II vs Isomac Tea vs Izzo Vivi vs... ?"by HB on Sun Aug 19, 2007 7:49 pm

edwa wrote:is that the same as the MXK?

To add to Darrian's reply, no, they're not the same. The thread Macap grinder naming confusion explains the model numbers (MC4 = 58mm flat burr doserless, MXK = 64mm conical with doser). I get them confused all the time too.
Dan Kehn
User avatar
HB
 
Posts: 7212
Joined: Apr 29, 2005
Location: Cary, NC

Next

Return to Espresso Machines