Is Zassenhaus 156 Kneemill suitable for espresso

[Psyd]

So, I picked it up from another coffee enthusiast, with the caveat that I wanted it 'if it can get me twenty-five to thirty second doubles on my Silvia'. If I dial it down' to where the burrs are constantly in contact (and any tighter would be the two burrs against one another under tension) I can just get an acceptable pull on the Silvia in thirty seconds. My feeling is that this can't be that great for the hand-grinder, and that it probably won't last, as it's on the very edge of acceptable performance at the start.
Am I worried over nothing, or am I justified in thanking this person for their offer, but returning the grinder as not fit for the task I described?
Does anyone else have a recent vintage 156 kneemill that makes great espresso grind without full burr contact? My PeDe will choke my Silvia and my Astoria if I get the burrs to touch.

[cannonfodder]

I tried a hand mill once, once being the operative word. It was one sold by one of the hand mill enthusiasts on this site and was adjusted for espresso. While it was novel to use, it was a far cry from what I get from a good electric grinder. The cup was more monotone, better than trying to use a whirling blade of death grinder, but not what I would call a good espresso grinder. The novelty lasted for a couple of shots, and then it went away. I think a Mini produces a much better shot and it does not even come close to what you get from a big conical. Sorry hand grinder guys, but I just don't like them. They may work good for press pot at the camp site, but I don't care for the espresso it produced. I am sure some do better, but I don't want to get a dozen grinders to find one that works. By then, I could have gotten a Mazzer for the same $$, just my two cents, take it at face value.

[petunia]

That's interesting, Psyd... I ordered the same model from Sweet Maria's only to be told they had just sold out. I ended up getting the open-hopper model and I'm slowly dialing it in for my Silvia. The SM site says you can run the burrs together without damaging them, which sounds weird - maybe the much slower RPM makes it okay, I dunno.

The two concerns I have right off the bat are (1) the burrs aren't centered with each other exactly - when cranking, the sound of them meeting comes & goes, and so the grind isn't all that consistent, especially for coarse; and (2) the adjustment likes to wander a little bit. There may be ways to fix these things, I just don't know what they are.

That said, it still beats the pants off my Virtuoso. I have neither cash nor counter space for a Macap (or, ok, Mazzer ) just yet, but luckily I think this Zass will hold me for a while while I get my technique down etc.

I think this because last night's final pull was 24 sec, and this morning's (grinding halfway between the 24 sec point and the choke point) was 38 sec. I don't have a tamper that fits the basket yet, and I can tell my distribution is way off, but these are the best results so far. Thanks to the Zass and reverse temp surfing, I've finally made shots I actually enjoyed drinking. But as a n00b, my standards (and palate, budget, etc.) are surely vastly different from cannonfodder's, so take it as you will.

[Psyd]

I tried a hand mill once, once being the operative word.... ...Sorry hand grinder guys, but I just don't like them.

You tried one hand grinder one time and you're ready to give up an entire world's worth of possibilities?
My PeDe competes well with either of my Mazzer Majors. The complexity of the cup, the evenness and lack of clumps, and the consistency of the pull is amazing.
My question wasn't whether hand grinders are up to the task, they are, with exceptions (the one you used and possibly the one I have) but whether the recent minting of the 156 is up to the task. Or, perhaps it's just my recently minted 156.

[cannonfodder]

Yup, but keep in mind that this was not a grinder off the antique store shelf, but a proven and adjusted grinder tweaked for espresso. It produced an OK shot but lacked the range and definition of a larger grinder. If I was camping or had nothing else, I would use it, but I am not going to replace my other grinders with one.

[Psyd]

Yup, but keep in mind that this was not a grinder off the antique store shelf

My antique (ca. 1950's?) PeDe is showing my Majors that they aren't so tough. The newer Zass is the one that I'm having issues with. I'm just looking for other Zass users to see if adjusting the thing right down to where the burrs are in constant contact with one another to get something that is even possible for espresso is to be expected, or if my grinder is not up to Zass' usual standard.
In other words, do I return this one and try another 156, or is it endemic in the product, and I should really try something else?
I'm pretty sure that there are hand grinders out there that can give your larger electric grinder a run for its money. It's just unfortunate that the first one that you used wasn't up to the task. I'm saying that you ought try a few others before you give up on the whole genre.

[orwa]

... If I dial it down' to where the burrs are constantly in contact (and any tighter would be the two burrs against one another under tension) I can just get an acceptable pull on the Silvia in thirty seconds. My feeling is that this can't be that great for the hand-grinder, and that it probably won't last, as it's on the very edge of acceptable performance at the start ...

I think that your judgment is a good one. I was leaning toward the espressomühle model, which I am not sure if it's the one you're talking about or not (that one has the model number "156 ES SW"), but went with the Turkish model for it being the one tried and most trusted. On my ugly, cheap-looking Turkish model, the grinder can do a very long pull at the point just before the "two burrs" are put "against one another under tension". Note that I use hard beans, which usually require finer settings. The Ethiopian large, fragile beans I buy on the other hand can be ground satisfactorily under a relatively-loose setting, even though I am using a lever, which supports your conclusion.

ADDITION: Regarding hand-crank grinders in general, I would like to say that though I tried a very little number of grinders myself, and though the Mazzers were not of those grinders that I have tried, I have a planar-burr grinder that is using the Mini burrs and operating under an rpm of 450, which I couldn't use to get a cup that is totally devoid of bitterness, no matter how much I tried. I claim that I can easily distinguish astringency and charcoal flavours from bitterness... Which is an awful brewing imperfection that I cannot tolerate, whereas these other attributes I can accept as taste varieties. The point here is that although the Zassenhaus grind doesn't look fancy to me, that is, it contains a lot of considerably large granules, and upon tamping shows a surface that is indicative of a lot of unevenness in the grind... Its grind "tastes" best (when the burrs are relatively clean), and I sincerely cannot detect bitterness, with a cup that tastes the same way a fresh grind would smell.

[peacecup]

I need not mention I don't entirely agree with cannonfodder on this issue! In fact, having used one once, I humbly suggest his opinion is rather overstated! (i.e. I don't like espresso - I tried one from a Krups once )

If the Zass was expensive and money a concern I might return it. If you can afford it as an experiment, just keep using it with the burrs touching and see if it gets better. My "theory" is that the grind will become finer and more even as the burrs wear, but I have no real evidence for this. Only a handful of old grinders that make have been used for years and still make great espresso (and are, at this moment, unfortunately, somewhere on the Atlantic Ocean between N. America and Sweden).

PC

[orwa]

I read your theory in some other post, and what I would like to say is that it depends on whether the hand grinder we're discussing does use a ball bearing, or any sort of an axle-centering mechanism or not. If it doesn't, then the wear will be uneven, dependent on the usage patterns, and will most probably make the situation worse over time. However, in the case of your old grinders, which may be using such a ball bearing, the wear will indeed help achieving finer settings over time, though I cannot comment upon the change (if any) in grind quality. In the case of that model however, the 156, it's one of the poor designs where the axle is long and there is no bearing at the bottom, hence resulting in a considerable horizontal play upon grinding and uneven wear of the burr's grinding surface. I personally do not recommend keeping it, unless you may not have a better alternative.

[cannonfodder]

To each his own. As a said, it did produce a shot but I personally did not care for it, but if my two choices were a whirly blade, preground or the hand mill, I would go with the hand mill in a second. If I had to purchase 10 units to find one that worked, I would not bother, but then again, I don't think the manufacturer intended it to be used as an espresso grinder but a drip/press pot grinder.

P.C. Weren't you in Alaska? Now Sweden?

[espressoed]

To each his own. As a said, it did produce a shot but I personally did not care for it, but if my two choices were a whirly blade, preground or the hand mill, I would go with the hand mill in a second.

Um, Dave aren't those three choices? On second thought, given those options I guess it's really only one choice: the crank.

I'm kinda curious about that Zass knee mill labeled "espresso" and given a different SKU number than their other knee mills. Is it actually different from the others outside of having an "espresso" label on it? If so, too bad it's not available in N.A. I believe Mark Prince at one time also took note of this mill but didn't have any info on it. Can anyone else shed any light?

[SteveN]

I have a Zass box mill I bought from Sweet Marias about 7 years ago. I sold my Rocky and I am using it while I wait for the Cimbali Hybrid to be back in stock.

It makes an ok cup. I find it is better to leave the adjustment and change to dose to hit numbers. I do like that if I put 17 grams in, I get 17 grams out. I get good consistent pulls but the flavor is flat. Even my unsophisticated taste buds can tell that. The burrs are touching when I grind but SM said that is fine so....

-Steve

[woodchuck]

I have a Zass 156. I use it as my second espresso grinder (M4 is the primary grinder) and for my press pot. I pretty much screw it down until the burrs touch for espresso. For press, it is excellent - takes no time at all. For 16gr ground for espresso it takes a good couple of minutes of cranking but the results are pretty consistent. Would rather have a second M4 but the better half has ruled that out. I wouldn't use this as a primary grinder but for a second grinder it works fine.

Cheers

Ian

[peacecup]

I have little experience with Zasses, and the ones I've used have not ground as fine as some other hand mills I have. Most of the ones I use regularly have ball bearings to center the inner burr, but I'm not sure all of them do.

I'd like to propose a test to all those convinced that they can taste differences between hand grinders and the more expensive electric version - dial both in with your favorite beans, then grind enough for a shot with each. Figure out a way to do a blind test (e.g. mark the baskets, etc), then do so. I'd like to know how many of you honestly can say that your electric grinder tastes better. If anyone decides to accept the challenge, remember you'll need to do it at least five times, probably ten or more, to provide anything like a "significant" result.

PC

[Psyd]

I'd like to know how many of you honestly can say that your electric grinder tastes better.

PC, I tried to give the impression that, if anything, the shots from my PeDe were better than those from my Majors. No scientific data, but that's the impression I was left with.
Speaking of scientific data, I'd rather have a mill that I can use now than experiment with the present 156 to see how it progresses. It will be my travel mill to go with my travel kit, and I need something that performs. The PeDe is nice, but it's old and fragile, and I need something a bit more robust.
If you'd like to continue the experimentation, however, I'd happily get you the grinder for whipping and what I have into it... ; >

I'm still trying to find someone that can tell me what the differences between the espressomuehle and the kaffemuehle are, and how to tell one from another. Ya know, for future purchases.

[peacecup]

I actually left an Zass behind when I moved, due to space limitations. It did not seem to work as well as some of my others, but I did not give it much of a chance.

I have one Kym grinder that for some reason I sometimes "felt" made a better cup. Never tried to compare, or explored why. Maybe I'll have a go when they arrive.

Two months without an espresso machine is a LONG time....

PC