Is the new La Marzocco GS3 out of production?

[Lars]

Hello guys, I am from Denmark and new on this great board.

One bad shot after another......I have invested the last Dime in poor low spec. machines, it's over

So I have decided to get the Aston martin........ The Lamborghini....... The Ferrari, of espresso machines thats it. all those money I have used on those cheap plastic-crap-thinfoil-made in the republic of copyland. I could have bought the ultimate machine.

So please guide me to the creme-de-la-creme

I have reading alot about the La Marzocco Linea, but after reading alot of great reviews about the La Marzocco GS3 I decided that this Jewel should be a part of the our family.
I just have one problem, were can I buy it???? and more confusing is, that the reviews from this site and some other sites, are they speaking about the "NEW" La Marzocco GS3.
I have just called La Marzocco in Italy, and they are telling me that the GS3 is and old model that is out of production I don't get it, Please give some expert help here.

Cheers Lars
Denmark

[malachi]

The GS and GS2 are old (out of production) models.
The GS3, on the other hand, is a new model that is not yet in production.
Current rumours are that it will be available sometime in the coming year.

[HB]

So I have decided to get the Aston martin........ The Lamborghini....... The Ferrari, of espresso machines thats it. all those money I have used on those cheap plastic-crap-thinfoil-made in the republic of copyland. I could have bought the ultimate machine.

I can certainly appreciate lusting after high-end equipment, and based on what I've read, the GS3 leads the pack in lust-worthiness. But there's an excellent reason this site's name is Home-Barista.com (hint). You can spend less than half of the GS3's rumored list price and have a phenomenal envy-enducing setup. One of my favorite machines is the Elektra Microcasa a Leva. Compact, beautiful, fast, nice shots, excellent steaming capacity.

More directly to the point: Investing in your skills will deliver faster and better results than equipment upgrades.

[Lars]

So malachi, your well written and detailed review in the "Bench" is made on a Prototype, 110V made.??

[Lars]

More directly to the point: Investing in your skills will deliver faster and better results than equipment upgrades.

Your absolutely right. But the problem is that the machines I have bought, until now, have been of such a poor quality so I simply have weared them down way to early. The last machine I have is/was the Francis Francis X1, which i thought was NOT only a design icon. Before this machine I have had 5 other crappy machines. So I have had enough. Normal I never go on compromise when I am buying some "Hardware" from golf equipment to electric working tools, I always buy the best quality and if dont have the money for it, I rather those to wait. On that way if there is something wrong, there is only myself to blame for crappy results. So I am pissed at myself on how I could go on compromise with a espresso machine

Btw. the Elektra Micro Casa have I had a good eye for, it's a nice piece of machinery?

[HB]

Btw. the Elektra Micro Casa have I had a good eye for, it's a nice piece of machinery?

Elektra designs and manufacturers mighty fine equipment. Mark wrote up the Microcasa and I recently evaluated the A3. Needless to say, they are on the opposite spectrum of technique and capacity. Steve has been taunting me about the Olympia Cremina versus the Microcasa. He thinks the true lever experience should not involve any springs.

Those are just examples of machines that will last for decades. You can spend more, but in 98% of the cases, I would argue that the barista is the gating factor, not the equipment.

[malachi]

So malachi, your well written and detailed review in the "Bench" is made on a Prototype, 110V made.??

Yes.

[Teme]

Hi Lars,

If you still lust after the GS3, you can check with the guys at Kontra Coffee in Copenhagen. They have also played around with a prototype at some stage and seem to know the La Marzocco people well...

The Elektra is an entirely difference kind of a machine from the GS3. I think it is well built, definitely beautiful and good value for money. However, you will have trouble pulling large numbers of shots e.g. at a party - it will overheat. But if all you need is a maximum of 3-4 consecutive shots this is not a problem. You can see it, the semi-automatic Micro-Casa as well as a few other machines at Osterlandsk Thehus in Copenhagen if you want to seem them "in the metal" and possibly even try them out.

There are numerous machines that fit somewhere between the above two.

Out of curiosity - what went wrong with your earlier machines? Using tap water in your espresso machine in Denmark - at least in Copenhagen will quickly ruin any machine, even a GS3 (unless properly and frequently descaled). I only use bottled water with low mineral count.

Br,
Teme

[espressobsessed]

Lars, if the best machine you've had was a Francis x1, I'd consider going for an e61 heat exchange machine, like an isomac, euro 2000 or other similar machine. If you get a mazzer mini and use good quality beans (what is cafe europa using these days?) - you shouldn't have trouble getting near the quality in the best commercial bars.

[malachi]

...you shouldn't have trouble getting near the quality in the best commercial bars.

Ummm...
I guess this depends on your definition of "near".

I would, instead, say "once your skill level is similar to that of the baristas in the best commercial bars, you should be able to produce espresso of similar quality on any good or better home machine."

[Teme]

what is cafe europa using these days?

They switched from Illy to Kontra Coffee in June this year. A huge improvement.

Br,
Teme

[Lars]

The Mazzer Mini, that I have I am still reading and learning all about the e61 group/group head, and I can feel that i'm still a green bean, but hey!! I am a quick learner

[Woofy]

Last week the official word from ESI (LM's American Importer) was that the GS3 will not be readily available for the masses until the last half of 2006. Also, final pricing has become somewhat nebulous, hinting that final pricing is likely to be much greater than the $4500 initial estimate, slightly below the cost of a Linea 1-group. Sure would be great if they could get close to their initial target price, though.

[skyryders90]

Also, final pricing has become somewhat nebulous, hinting that final pricing is likely to be much greater than the $4500 initial estimate, slightly below the cost of a Linea 1-group.

Paint me a skeptic, but this really doesn't surprise me a bit.

Were they to sell the GS3 at $4500, it would effectively kill the 1-group Linea. So, assuming they weren't having trouble selling the Linea 1-group at its price point, there's no reason to kill that machine by making this one much cheaper. Make this one a little less, and position the Linea as a true small commercial machine, and the GS3 as smaller commercial, catering, and super-high-end home machine.

Bye-bye "consumer" machine ...

[HB]

Paint me a cynic, but what if all this [past] talk of a "consumer LM" was a ruse to assure that the project was discussed online?

Many coffee professionals follow forums dominated by consumers, so anything hyped in that venue would reach their ears too. Had the GS3 been promoted as a commercial / catering machine from day 1 and at the prices traditionally expected of La Marzoccos, the interest level for your typical enthusiast would be at best as spectator instead of potential buyer (albeit of the "I wish someday" variety).

I've read nothing to suggest that the GS3 isn't superior to today's one-group Linea. So I have to agree with you, what possible motivation would they have for undercutting their own product line in the face of no cheaper competitive offering?

Of course, this is pure speculation on my part. La Marzocco may have plans to sell at a huge loss for a couple years and drive the Expobars of the world out of business. If this comes to pass, remember you heard it here first.

[another_jim]

1. If I've followed everything correctly, the head on the GS3 is slated to go on the new models of their other machines
2. The GS3 at $4500 is overpriced for a commercial 1 group; the 1 group Linea outrageously overpriced. I doubt they sell a lot of Linea 1 groups
3. Therefore, it's just as possible that they will retire the one group Lineas in favor of the GS3 when they bring out the new line.

[HB]

The GS3 at $4500 is overpriced for a commercial 1 group.

Admittedly I'm not well versed on espresso equipment at such lofty prices. Are you comparing the GS3's price to another competitor's offering, and if so, which ones? I rarely see one groups in commercial establishments; the few I have seen were Cimbali Juniors. The rest were pricey super-automatics.

[skyryders90]

Paint me a cynic, but what if all this [past] talk of a "consumer LM" was a ruse to assure that the project was discussed online?

I've wondered this from the start, in addition to how much of the GS3 "evaluations" are intended to create buzz and demand. For example - if this is an eval machine that has the potential for HUGE rework (as pointed out to us over and over again by Mark P), why would LM go to the expense of sandblasting the big LM logos into the side panels? I can't help but notice that those logos are missing on Chris' eval machine. Is that because LM knows that Mark will photograph the hell out of it and feature it on his site? Also, the $4500 number came from LM, so this is something that will circulate along with it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't LM a company who's largest customer (the mermaid) has chosen to move on to other equipment? I'm guessing they wouldn't mind creating a little buzz here and there.

[cannonfodder]

I kept telling myself that the $4500 MSRP was just that, Manufacturer's suggested, and that the street price would be much lower. Just like the Linea MSRP of $8K+, but they can be had for $5k+. I was hoping the GS3 would market in the low $3K, making it somewhat viable. If I am willing to spend $3K on an Elektra A3 why not put another couple hundred into the investment and get the GS3.

With all of the technical innovations, a price increase would not surprise me. I honestly believe this machine's origins were in the home market. LM has market dominance in the commercial sector but no footprint in the increasing home market. As others have suggested, creating a machine that outclasses it big brother for a substantially lower price point would not be the wisest decision, unless they are planning on phasing out the one group in favor of the GS3.

This may simply be a case of product evolution, or a classic example of what happens when the engineers are given a free hand to design without constraints from the bean counters. You start with a good base, and then the 'if we add this or change that it would be even better' goes into overdrive. Before you know it, you have a very innovative machine that blows the original price point out of the water.

Regardless of the end price point and target market, the interesting thing will be how the other manufactures respond. Competition breeds innovation and the end consumer benefits. I would almost be willing to put money down that within a year of its release to market, someone else will be offering a factory PID controlled machine, maybe even a new lineup of dual boiler machines.

[gscace]

I've wondered this from the start, in addition to how much of the GS3 "evaluations" are intended to create buzz and demand. For example - if this is an eval machine that has the potential for HUGE rework (as pointed out to us over and over again by Mark P), why would LM go to the expense of sandblasting the big LM logos into the side panels? I can't help but notice that those logos are missing on Chris' eval machine. Is that because LM knows that Mark will photograph the hell out of it and feature it on his site? Also, the $4500 number came from LM, so this is something that will circulate along with it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't LM a company who's largest customer (the mermaid) has chosen to move on to other equipment? I'm guessing they wouldn't mind creating a little buzz here and there.

I've been somewhat familiar with the project for a few years now. The original intent was to create a very stable home machine using energy management techniques borrowed from steam generation technology (tain't nuthin new). The fact that the performance of the prototypes is so good has pretty much bowled them over. Commercial folks (who read these websites by the way) were quick to get REAL interested in the machine as an evaluation tool and as a catering machine, so the machine has broader appeal than LM thought it would. The engineering of the GS3 was mainly accomplished and driven by Bill Crossland from LM International, in the US. The Italian side of the company apparently didn't think there was any market and didn't give it much priority. The amount of buzz on the web has been quite a wakeup call, as I understand it, and this buzz may help propel the project to market.

As far as I'm concerned, the buzz has been created by the competence of the machine. It is extremely well executed and it has been an absolute pleasure to use. The evaluation that I've been doing is purely from an engineering / quantitative testing POV. I don't claim to be a Bronwen Serna or Chris Tacy. I'm happy to be able to quantify the level of performance of the GS3 and very happy to help my friends at LM by posting it here.

I don't believe that there was any intent by LM to engineer buzz.

-Greg