Is the new La Marzocco GS3 out of production? - Page 2

[skyryders90]

The amount of buzz on the web has been quite a wakeup call, as I understand it, and this buzz may help propel the project to market.

This is part of my point - the buzz (engineered or not) may very well support a higher price point. And as - presumably - good business people, they would be remiss to not consider this in setting a price. If the GS3 comes out at $6500 and the market accepts it, then LM would be foolish not to price it as such - I'd be disappointed, but mostly because that is more than I can justify for home espresso.

The only part of this where I would cast aspersions toward LM was if the $4500 price was floated in a guerilla marketing effort to (1) generate buzz by floating a price that might be palatable to high-end consumers, and (2) see whether it stuck. These aspersions would be based on their taking advantage of the goodwill of the espresso enthusiasts here, not on their being good capitalists by charging what the market will bear.

As far as I'm concerned, the buzz has been created by the competence of the machine.

I'm not for 1 second doubting the machine's performance, and your 100% correct that it's the performance that's driving the buzz. However, do you think there would be as much buzz if, along with the performance and photos, there was a $8000 price tag floating with it? Rather than a parade of "sign me up"s I think we'd be seeing a parade of "wow, I hope the 10 people that buy them will enjoy it" - admiration, but not buzz.

My comments are almost entirely based on the statement by Woofy that ESI is talking to pricing that is "much greater" than the $4500 floated price point. If this proves untrue, obviously my concerns are assuaged. If it IS true, I think these are reasonable questions to be asked.

[Woofy]

Maybe it's just my cynical predisposition toward marketing types, but I wasn't all that shocked at the "sudden" reconsideration of the GS3's price. After all, the only competitive equivalent to the GS3 in the marketplace is the $6400 Synesso Cyncra and, now that others have mentioned it, it sure does seem a little more than hokey that LM leadership would suddenly do a 180-degree and start "value" pricing a product. Now, if LM had announced product-line-wide price drops, I could see the $4500 tag. But someone once told me that greed is a much harder habit to kick than smoking. And free marketing is pretty tough to pass up as well. In hindsight, it does seem awfully suspicious that any savvy business would allow any web or print publication to evaluate a "pre-production" ANYTHING unless they were dead sure of the response and were hoping to generate some advance demand or "buzz" as some have termed it.

[skyryders90]

Maybe it's just my cynical predisposition toward marketing types, but I wasn't all that shocked at the "sudden" reconsideration of the GS3's price. After all, the only competitive equivalent to the GS3 in the marketplace is the $6400 Synesso Cyncra and, now that others have mentioned it, it sure does seem a little more than hokey that LM leadership would suddenly do a 180-degree and start "value" pricing a product. Now, if LM had announced product-line-wide price drops, I could see the $4500 tag. But someone once told me that greed is a much harder habit to kick than smoking. And free marketing is pretty tough to pass up as well. In hindsight, it does seem awfully suspicious that any savvy business would allow any web or print publication to evaluate a "pre-production" ANYTHING unless they were dead sure of the response and were hoping to generate some advance demand or "buzz" as some have termed it.

My thoughts exactly. I don't see them sending the pre-production units to ANYONE publicly if there were ANY chance that the feedback wouldn't be uniformly glowing - and it's very hard for me to disassociate "buzz-building" from that. Ok, so they get little nitpicks and input, but for the most part it's gonna be all good. And then they float a price point along with the machine ... now it's getting REALLY hard for me to disassociate the two.

Over on CG I linked back to Woofy's original mention of ESI talking higher price, and asked Mark P. if he had anything on that. His response was that he talked to Bill C. ~10 days ago and Bill didn't mention anything. Well, again call my cynical, but OF COURSE he wouldn't say anything. I don't think Bill's lack of mention confirms or denies the potential price change - if there's no talk of it and ESI is speaking on their own, then Bill wouldn't say anything, but if there WERE plans for a price hike, he wouldn't say anything until he absolutely had to.

The machine may very well be an engineering marvel, but I doubt that the engineers are going to set the price.

[Nick]

My thoughts exactly. I don't see them sending the pre-production units to ANYONE publicly if there were ANY chance that the feedback wouldn't be uniformly glowing - and it's very hard for me to disassociate "buzz-building" from that. Ok, so they get little nitpicks and input, but for the most part it's gonna be all good. And then they float a price point along with the machine ... now it's getting REALLY hard for me to disassociate the two.

To you (skyryders) and the other folks with "conspiracy theories,": the folks at LM aren't as shrewd or conniving as you guys seem to think. Those pre-production units went out with very few guidelines (if any).

This is classic over-thinking. LM-USA doesn't have some crazy marketing/PR department that's trying to infiltrate online discussion boards with GS3 hype. They wanted to send some test units to some folks, they came up with a list of "early-adopters" and people who would give them good feedback, and that's it. Guys like Tacy and Princey got excited and have been posting about their experiences all over the place, but that's what they do with everything.

Everybody chill. Let's all be like Fonzie.

[skyryders90]

To you (skyryders) and the other folks with "conspiracy theories,": the folks at LM aren't as shrewd or conniving as you guys seem to think. Those pre-production units went out with very few guidelines (if any).

This is classic over-thinking. LM-USA doesn't have some crazy marketing/PR department that's trying to infiltrate online discussion boards with GS3 hype. They wanted to send some test units to some folks, they came up with a list of "early-adopters" and people who would give them good feedback, and that's it. Guys like Tacy and Princey got excited and have been posting about their experiences all over the place, but that's what they do with everything.

Everybody chill. Let's all be like Fonzie.

I don't have conspiracy theories, and I don't think anyone else on here does either. I'm just making the assumption that the business people over at LM are actually trying to make money, and to make as much as they can - doesn't seem all that conspiratorial or even unfounded. You call this over-thinking, and I call not considering the motives of the big-company-trying-to-make-money to be naive. I'm just trying to critically look at what has gone on with the machine to this point, in light of some new information that may have become available, and to ask some questions as to what it could mean. Nothing more.

I'm not presuming that they are trying to take advantage of us, but I'm also not presuming that they AREN'T. LM stirred this pot themselves when they sent out eval machines and circulated a price point - they get both the good and the bad that comes with it. Perhaps the real question we should be asking is how credible Woofy's source at ESI is, and where that source is getting their info. Assuming it's a credible source, is the info coming from LM, or is it ESI that is thinking of seizing an opportunity to make some extra cash? If the source is credible, and the info is coming from LM, then I don't think any of this discussion is off-base or has been unfounded at all.

[malachi]

I think y'all need to learn a little more about the relationship(s) between La Marzocco (Italy) and LMI (US) to understand the situation.

The GS3 was a one-man crusade by someone at LMI that seems to have generated a ton of actual sales interest from commercial buyers (not buzz - not home users).
This interest (as noted) may have come as a shock to La Marzocco. Given, however, that they take such potential commercial sales interest very seriously, my intuition says that La Marzocco may well have started to take this seriously and the GS3 may no longer be a LMI crusade.

If La Marzocco were as devious and marketing driven as you seem to think they are, there would be no Synesso (for example).

[skyryders90]

I think y'all need to learn a little more about the relationship(s) between La Marzocco (Italy) and LMI (US) to understand the situation.

The GS3 was a one-man crusade by someone at LMI that seems to have generated a ton of actual sales interest from commercial buyers (not buzz - not home users).
This interest (as noted) may have come as a shock to La Marzocco. Given, however, that they take such potential commercial sales interest very seriously, my intuition says that La Marzocco may well have started to take this seriously and the GS3 may no longer be a LMI crusade.

Ok ... are you saying that the purported price hike is due to "big" LM catching on and taking control of it? If not, I'm not sure what you're implying re: the impact of the LM/LMI relationship.

[HB]

But someone once told me that greed is a much harder habit to kick than smoking. And free marketing is pretty tough to pass up as well.

I never understood the original $2500 price point mentioned at the SCAA conference in Seattle by Bill Crossman and Kent Bakke. With all the advanced capabilities and gee-whiz factor, why would they target a price below something as pedestrian as a Cimbali Junior DT1?

A little background... They were handing out invites to the ESI party at their booth; later that evening I introduced myself to Bill. We chatted a bit and got to talking about the GS3. He was surprised that I thought the proposed price was too low. "What do you think it should cost?" he asked. Looking at the commercial one-groups in the market and adding for the innovations over the Linea (electronic temperature control, programmable / manual preinfusion, compact size, etc.), I hoped for $1000 more than the well-known Junior as a street price, plus another $500 for MSRP. "A $3500 street price with $4000 MSRP seems reasonable," I replied.

I have no marketing background, these were only off-the-cuff comments based on my cursory knowledge of machines in the upper price brackets. Now that the GS3 appears by all accounts to be delivering more than what was promised and the first production run is reported to be sold in advance, I can't think of a good reason LM would choose to sell at less than premium prices.

[Woofy]

It all boils down to the old, "If it sounds too good to be true, it generally is" adage. LM's track record indicates that they have a tough enough time selling a grinder for under $4500 much less a machine as apparently advanced as the GS3. Shouldn't THAT have been enough of a clue for us to raise a little good natured scepticism at the $4500 pricetag of the GS3? I admit that I too fell under the $4500 spell as well and have delayed upgrading my current setup on the promise of a reasonably priced baby-LM that I could call my own.

That said, LM could sure make up for the loss of the Charbucks mega-account by offering high-end home machines. Their reputation for quality and workmanship is already well established. At the moment, LM has the golden opportunity to become the Mark Levinson of the growing home espresso market. Given that, it would make perfect business sense for them to sell the GS3 around the $7000 price point. From what I've read about the GS3 on this website alone, it provides users with a level of extraction control unheard of at ANY price, and THAT is worth a LOT more than $4500. The R&D and tooling costs alone for a machine like the GS3 is well into the seven digits. To begrudge LM a reasonable rate of return on what's already a considerable investment on what's turned out to be a remarkable product is simply ridiculous.

It would be far more constructive to make a concerted effort as consumers to let LM know that there are truckloads of coffee-geeks and home baristas out here who'd love to get their mitts on a machine based on the GS3 mechanicals but with conventional control systems, provided it could be offered at or below the $4500 retail price point. I doubt many consumers would object if the machine was offered only as a semi-auto if it included a quality PID-based brew boiler temp control and conventional (Sirai) pressurestat regulating the steam/hot water boiler. If the street price for such a machine were in the $3000-$3500 range, I bet LM would easily dominate that portion of the espresso machine market.

From a manufacturing standpoint, the only additional tooling costs would be those associated with substituting a simplified control panel piece for the more complex one to be used on the upcoming GS3. All the other parts unique to the form factor of the machine are already tooled up for production of the GS3. If nothing else, it's fodder for thought...LM, if you're reading this, consider this your clue.

[barry]

I honestly believe this machine's origins were in the home market.

i think this machine's origin was as a "proof of concept" vehicle that would demonstrate that if certain techologies were feasible and affordable to put into a high-end home machine, then those technologies belong in commercial machines, as well. recall where the machine was created versus where the commercial design/build normally takes place. i really think this was bill saying to italy, "look, if i can put all this in such a small package and under such-and-such price point, and have it work well, then why can't you put the same technologies in the big machines, too?"


--barry "or else he just wanted a bitchin' home machine"

[malachi]

Thanks Barry.
I think both of your explanations are true, accurate and well-stated.

[another_jim]

If the street price for such a machine were in the $3000-$3500 range, I bet LM would easily dominate that portion of the espresso machine market.

From a manufacturing standpoint, the only additional tooling costs would be those associated with substituting a simplified control panel piece for the more complex one to be used on the upcoming GS3. All the other parts unique to the form factor of the machine are already tooled up for production of the GS3. If nothing else, it's fodder for thought...LM, if you're reading this, consider this your clue.

At decent volumes, the electronics is almost no cost, so simplifying the controls is not going to much reduce LM's cost. The real cost is inherent in the package size and the use of stainless-- fabricating oddly shaped pieces in stainless steel is expensive, even at volume. The street price will heavily depend on how good a deal they get on that from their suppliers.

[malachi]

And given that stainless prices have, in the last 18 months, increased... what? 300%? 500%?
Yikes.

[another_jim]

And given that stainless prices have, in the last 18 months, increased... what? 300%? 500%?
Yikes.

Mark mentioned they were thinking of redesigning the package (hope they don't, since this one is so cool); perhaps it's to go to simpler rectangular or cylindircal boilers, rather than the oval shapes I made out when Bill opened the machine up at the SCAA.

I think stainless is the wave of the future for espresso machines. There is probably a slight benefit to the taste, especially in a machine with a large brew boiler. I get fairly large TDS increases in my steam boiler from leached brass, smaller ones in the small HX. But with a large brass brew boiler, there probably would be 50 ppm metal leaching in the brew water. Stainless is probably easier to maintain down the line, although brass is pretty durable too -- at least my stainless pots are a lot less of a pita than the copper ones.

[AndyS]

I doubt many consumers would object if the machine was offered only as a semi-auto if it included a quality PID-based brew boiler temp control and conventional (Sirai) pressurestat regulating the steam/hot water boiler. If the street price for such a machine were in the $3000-$3500 range, I bet LM would easily dominate that portion of the espresso machine market.

From a manufacturing standpoint, the only additional tooling costs would be those associated with substituting a simplified control panel piece for the more complex one to be used on the upcoming GS3.

Eliminating the flowmeter might save LM $25. Controlling the steam boiler with a pressurestat would probably cost them more than the temperature sensor/Gicar brainbox combo they're using now -- plus it would be a lot less reliable. Eliminating a couple control buttons...I think they're going to do that anyway.

Basically, your suggestions wouldn't make a "GS-2.9" significantly more affordable. I suppose you could make it $150 cheaper by putting in a (yuck) vibe pump.