Is Gaggia Achille a good choice for a first time lever owner?

[cai42]

Greetings,

Several years ago I was very interested in purchasing a lever machine but I was talked out of it by a dealer who thought the Gaggia Achille was not a good choice for a beginner. After reading the review on HB my interest is rekindled. Is this a good choice for a first time owner of a lever machine?

Thanks,

Clifford Isackson

[timo888]

Greetings,

Several years ago I was very interested in purchasing a lever machine but I was talked out of it by a dealer who thought this was not a good choice for a beginner. After reading the review on HB my interest is rekindled. Is this a good choice for a first time owner of a lever machine?

A lever is an excellent choice for a beginner. Because of their narrower/taller basket shape (they usually run between 45mm and 51mm diameter, with Achille's standard 'commercial' 58mm basket being an exception) together with their manually controlled brew pressure, manual levers are more forgiving than a pump machine.

The Achille's choice of 58mm basket makes it not a very good machine for pulling singles. Pullling singles on the 58mm basket is not easy. Pulling singles on a 45mm or 51mm basket is quite easy.

I would encourage someone who is interested in levers for the qualities of the espresso they produce, to look for a used Olympia Cremina or Elektra Micro Casa a Leva on eBay, or for a new Ponte Vecchio Export or Lusso from a dealer with a buyer's remorse policy, and with the money saved, to get a good grinder. If I were buying a new home lever machine today, the Ponte Vecchio Lusso (it has a "club" form-factor) would be my choice.

Regards
Timo

P.S. The Cremina, like the Achille, is manual lever. The Elektra and Ponte Vecchios are spring-driven levers.

[grong]

timo888's above advice is right in line with my opinion.

I have been talked out of purchasing a lever machine by a well-intended salesperson on more than one occasion, in favor of a pump machine. I am really glad that I finally purchased a lever machine, which I thoroughly enjoy. In my experience, they are easier to use than pump machines.

Best wishes, cai42.

[hbuchtel]

Greetings,

Several years ago I was very interested in purchasing a lever machine but I was talked out of it by a dealer who thought this was not a good choice for a beginner. After reading the review on HB my interest is rekindled. Is this a good choice for a first time owner of a lever machine?

Thanks,

Clifford Isackson

What have you been using for the last couple years?

Henry

[zix]

I have tried the Achille, once. Being familiar with the E-61 group, which also has 58 mm filters, I started filling/packing it in the same way as I was used to. With a bit of tuning in of dose and tamp, I got nice thick crema out of it.
Said to myself that if this had been available at the time I bought my first espresso machine, I would have chosen the Achille instead of the Vibiemme Domobar (E-61 pump machine, single boiler). So no, I don't think you would have any insurmountable problems with getting good shots out of the Achille, but you *should* try it in real life to see if it is what you want. And it needs a good grinder, of course, otherwise you will get a whole set of new problems.

[cai42]

Greetings,

I should have included some background in my initial post.

I've been using a Zaffiro for the last few years. I only pull espresso shots so steaming power has never been a factor in deciding what machine to purchase. The beans are always fresh since I home roast and are ground in a Mazzer mini.

Cliff Isackson

[grong]

cai 42,

If you have been pulling shots you like on the Zaffiro, you can master to your liking any lever machine you choose.

Best wishes with your decision.

[another_jim]

The Achille's choice of 58mm basket makes it not a very good machine for pulling singles. Pullling singles on the 58mm basket is not easy. Pulling singles on a 45mm or 51mm basket is quite easy.

Timo, it's fine to have a theory about what baskets extract better. But it's high time you stop stating this as a fact, especially to people who may not know that it's simply your speculation.

You keep stating this as if you've personally confirmed. Instead you don't have a shred of evidence. How many 58mm machines have you used? How many singles have you pulled on them? Where's your data?

The evidence is all the other way. In Italy, 95% of the shots pulled are singles, and at least 95% of the machines have 58mm baskets. If the singles were really worse, would they have continued using them? I'm no expert in small gauge lever machines, but mostly I've had better luck with the double basket on them, since the singles tend to hold very little coffee if one allows sufficient clearance.

Your theory about the depth of the puck in 58mm single baskets shows you are not fully conversant with their design details.

The LM and Faema baskets hold 7 grams in the central portion of the basket, which is, in effect a mini-basket with the correct aspect ratios. LM figures the pure cylinder design works better, Faema thinks a slight conical shape is better (both carry these ideas to their double baskets). The Faema basket can be updosed, the LM basket cannot (profitably), and requires a 48mm tamper. The Rancilio basket, which has coffee spread over multiple steps when dosed with 7 grams, is unusable; at least, I couldn't get a non-channeling shot after a day of trying on three separate machines.

Finally, a theory stating that one can extract better with the same coffee in a long, thin cylinder as opposed to a short wide one is shaky overall. Channeling problems increase as the depth of the coffee cake increases -- this is the bane of the towers where instant coffee is made, and is turning into the bane of superautos. One needs a minimum depth to prevent the cake from dissolving and maintaining it as a control on the brewing speed. But beyond that, the lower portions of the cake extract into coffee rather than water, and at different pressures and temperatures from the top of the puck. The trend in design has consistently been towards wider gauges to create a more uniform extraction.

[timo888]

The Achille's choice of 58mm basket makes it not a very good machine for pulling singles. Pullling singles on the 58mm basket is not easy. Pulling singles on a 45mm or 51mm basket is quite easy.

Timo, it's fine to have a theory about what baskets extract better. But it's high time you stop stating this as a fact, especially to people who may not know that it's simply your speculation.

You keep stating this as if you've personally confirmed. Instead you don't have a shred of evidence. How many 58mm machines have you used? How many singles have you pulled on them? Where's your data?

The evidence is all the other way. In Italy, 95% of the shots pulled are singles, and at least 95% of the machines have 58mm baskets. If the singles were really worse, would they have continued using them? I'm no expert in small gauge lever machines, but mostly I've had better luck with the double basket on them, since the singles tend to hold very little coffee if one allows sufficient clearance.

Your theory about the depth of the puck in 58mm single baskets shows you are not fully conversant with their design details.

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The LM and Faema baskets hold 7 grams in the central portion of the basket, which is, in effect a mini-basket with the correct aspect ratios. LM figures the pure cylinder design works better, Faema thinks a slight conical shape is better (both carry these ideas to their double baskets). The Faema basket can be updosed, the LM basket cannot (profitably), and requires a 48mm tamper. The Rancilio basket, which has coffee spread over multiple steps when dosed with 7 grams, is unusable; at least, I couldn't get a non-channeling shot after a day of trying on three separate machines.

Finally, a theory stating that one can extract better with the same coffee in a long, thin cylinder as opposed to a short wide one is shaky overall. Channeling problems increase as the depth of the coffee cake increases -- this is the bane of the towers where instant coffee is made, and is turning into the bane of superautos. One needs a minimum depth to prevent the cake from dissolving and maintaining it as a control on the brewing speed. But beyond that, the lower portions of the cake extract into coffee rather than water, and at different pressures and temperatures from the top of the puck. The trend in design has consistently been towards wider gauges to create a more uniform extraction.

Jim,
We are talking about two things: relative difficulty, and differences in the cup.

First, relative difficulty. I would venture to say that ALL 58mm single baskets are more finicky when dosing for singles than narrower (45mm-51mm) deeper baskets, but some are more finicky than others. I have noted the differences in the design of 58mm singles (and pointed out the difference when discussing the basket size for the Beast). My firsthand experience is mainly with the Rancilio single basket. Countless budding baristas are advised here on H-B and on C-G to avoid the single basket while they are learning, it being the more difficult to master. That professional Italian baristas have mastered singles does not mean the 58mm single is easy or forgiving.

Even if the conical section in the middle of the basket were a perfect replica of a Cremina's 7g conical section, the rim around the cone is wider on the 58mm basket, and there you have a difference that makes a difference. With a 58mm single basket with a conical center section, (or the L-M's cylindrical center section), the water is dispersed across the entire diameter of the basket and flows in towards the center cone (or, with L-M, the inner cylinder). Updosing the 58mm single beyond 7g gives a shallow rim of coffee that is more likely to dissolve.

I can dose the Cremina 7g to 10g without any problems. The puck does not channel or dissolve and can be removed from the filter intact afterwards. My early experiences with channeling on the Cremina were the result of too high a p-stat setting which was causing the water to hit the puck with such great vehemence that the surface was disturbed. Lowering the p-stat was like installing a gicleur.

I have indeed made claims (though not in this thread) that a taller narrower column of coffee produces a DIFFERENT result in the cup than a wider shallower column of coffee. I am careful enough when describing taste and preferences not to call one thing BETTER or SUPERIOR than other. I don't believe I have ever called the results of a taller-narrower column of coffee SUPERIOR; rather I have said that lower brew pressure coupled with a taller/narrower column of coffee might account for the CLARITY in the cup that espresso enthusiasts have noted when using domestic spring levers.

The tallish narrow conical single baskets on these vintage domestic machines, baskets that taper to a filter under 30mm in diameter, seem to keep fines from migrating downward into the cup and I suspect the thickness of the puck is responsible for that. Now, couple this tallish-narrowish basket shape with a spring capable of producing no more than 6 bars, and you get a gentler extraction which even further reduces the release of solids.
...
I'm not saying domestic spring-driven machines are the cat's meow, but only that the espresso they produce is different in its quality from machines that operate 1) at higher pressure, 2) at constant as distinct from waning pressure over the duration of the extraction, and 3) with wider shallower baskets.


-- excerpted from the How domestic spring-levers produce espresso noted for clarity thread.

I have always talked about optimal diameter-to-height ratios, and have never suggested that 'a long thin cylinder' works best. A certain thickness in the puck can prevent center channeling, yet you don't want the puck to be so thick that the pressure has to ramp up beyond optimal levels, as that can then lead to side channeling.

Comparing the flow-rates of various single baskets at all diameters would be an interesting exercise. There is a big difference between the two single basket styles I have for the Cremina. The same grind cannot be used in both. One requires a significantly coarser grind. Differences in the coarseness of the grind and the rate of flow can be tasted in the cup.
Regards
Timo

[another_jim]

... I have always talked about optimal diameter-to-height ratios, and have never suggested that 'a long thin cylinder' works best. .... [snip]

Timo. Will you stop and listen to yourself! I'm saying you have no evidence and no experience with commercial machines or 58mm groups. If you want to post theories, post them. But if a newbie asks a question, don't give your extraction theories as if they were a fact; it's uninformative at best, misleading at worst.

My explanation as to why your theory is suspect were addressed to the OP. I and many others have already posted them for your consideration previously, and got similarly repetitious, seemingly uncomprehending, responses.

My only reason for posting here is to ask you to not give your purely personal opinions as if they were fact to people who don't know your posting style. It seems even this very plain request is fruitless; and I and others will continue to be forced into these tedious clarifications.

[timo888]

Timo. Will you stop and listen to yourself! I'm saying you have no evidence and no experience with commercial machines or 58mm groups. If you want to post theories, post them. But if a newbie asks a question, don't give your extraction theories as if they were a fact; it's uninformative at best, misleading at worst.

...
My only reason for posting here is to ask you to not give your purely personal opinions as if they were fact to people who don't know your posting style. It seems even this very plain request is fruitless; and I and others will continue to be forced into these tedious clarifications.

[emphasis mine]

Jim,
I would like you to take a dose of your own good advice.

My comments to the OP had to do with the difficulty I (and others) perceive with 58mm single baskets generally, variations in their shape notwithstanding. I wonder how many professional baristas in America who have experience with 58mm single baskets will agree with the statement that pulling top quality singles is as easy as pulling a top quality double. The headroom is an issue. The dose is an issue. Etc.


It was you who brought my ideas about basket dimension, puck thickness, and basket flow and their relationship to extraction qualities into this thread. I had indeed posted on the extraction qualities of domestic spring levers in another thread, and I don't want to disavow advancing those ideas. However, in self-defense against your nasty allegation that I am parading theories as if they were a fact, I quote again from the recent thread, and please note the words I am now placing in boldface:

The tallish narrow conical single baskets on these vintage domestic machines, baskets that taper to a filter under 30mm in diameter, seem to keep fines from migrating downward into the cup and I suspect the thickness of the puck is responsible for that.

When I used the phrases "seem to" and "I suspect", I am not presenting theories as if they were a fact. I was doing just the opposite. I wanted the reader to understand I was making educated guesses based on things I had noticed and on things I had read from a recognized authority. I did not make those tentative suggestions in a vacuum: Illy remarks upon the relationship of basket height-to-width ratio to brew pressure, and also hypothesizes about the migration of fines and its effect on flow. In that earlier thread, I referred the reader to Illy's book.

My explanation as to why your theory is suspect were addressed to the OP.

I guess you mean that your "explanation" was for the benefit of the OP, since you began the post by addressing me by name.

I and many others have already posted them for your consideration previously, and got similarly repetitious, seemingly uncomprehending, responses.

Many others? You and Dan? That qualifies as a crowd only here on H-B. Dan said he had never pulled a single, BTW.

Where have you marshaled a set of facts that would support the idea that basket dimension, maximum 6 bars brew pressure, and the flow characteristics of the conical basket have a negligible effect in the cup?

These factors in combination will determine the range for the coarseness|fineness of the grind, the dose, the headroom, the weight of the tamp. Q.E.D.

Regards
Timo

[HB]

Dan said he had never pulled a single, BTW.

That's true. But what caught my attention about your earlier post was the comment below. Some readers may well assume that you speak from experience with this particular machine, which I believe you do not.

The Achille's choice of 58mm basket makes it not a very good machine for pulling singles.

[cai42]

Greetings,

Remember me, I'm the guy who started this thread and now I can't remember the topic.

Lost,

Cliff Isackson

[zix]

It was "Is Gaggia Achille a good choice for a first time lever owner?"
Personally, as I said (well, approximately...) I would go for it if I didn't already have a lever. These words below, taken from the buyer's guide you refer to, did you see them? They may also help:

In summary, the Achille is breaking new ground in the home lever machine market. It combines many of the sought after features of a lever machine while delivering some pump like shot nuances. And let's be honest - lever espresso machines have a reputation of being difficult beasts to master. For the Achille, that simply is not the case. It is very easy to learn and quite forgiving, even for a novice lever operator.

[cai42]

Thanks Zix,

It's all coming back to me now. I was becoming a "basket" case from reading my own thread.

Cliff

[mogogear]

There is a broad spectrum of machines in this "small" subgroup of espresso enthusiasts. When you buy a quality espresso machine you are faced with the same prospect a lot of college graduates face... armed with a degree and a wonderful education , and you'll still have a learning curve applying that "tool" .

You will have a fun time enjoying the Achille and/ or any other of the other machine available to you. We all look forward to your input here from the lever you select. YOU are the biggest variable in the equation, we all are different here as you have read above. We all observe things and experience things very differently. We all apply the wealth of information differently. We appreciate things differently. You will bring us all new ways to look at the machine you settle on.

So welcome to helping us add to the" tapestry" that has been taking shape under our table here at the Cafe'. We are the noisy table, over in the corner. With a lot of people that wink and know they really pull shots......

Can't wait to see the picture in the LMWDP roster of what you decide on

[timo888]

That's true. But what caught my attention about your earlier post was the comment below. Some readers may well assume that you speak from experience with this particular machine, which I believe you do not.

The Achille's choice of 58mm basket makes it not a very good machine for pulling singles.

My statement above follows this structure: Ferrari's choice of bright red makes it not a very good automobile for camouflage maneuvers in white desert sands. The subject is Ferrari's choice of bright red. One does not need to have driven a Ferrari for that type of assertion to remain meaningful.

My opinion is that it is easier to pull great singles with the narrower baskets of yesteryear. That opinion could have limited validity, based as it is on hands-on experience with one of the more poorly designed among 58mm single baskets, but the way to show that the opinion does not hold generally would be for the reviewers to pull great singles with the Achille's basket as easily as they pull doubles.

I tried to make the case as strongly as I could, citing other H-Bers' high praise of the single, to show that it was not merely an idiosyncracy on my part. Dave considered singles quaint, a "curiosity", and you, Dan, never pull them, so getting the review to focus some of its attention on singles was an uphill effort.

The bench reviewers' criteria for judging the Achille were somewhat different than mine, even if there is some overlap. The review praises the Achille for its "pump like shot nuances". If pump-like shot nuances are different than lever-like shot nuances, then these nuances could be a reason for someone who is looking expressly for a lever machine to choose another model (Elektra, Ponte Vecchio, Cremina) over the Achille? Perhaps there is a place at H-B for a Minority Report.

Regards
Timo

[another_jim]

OK let's do this again. Timo this is is what you wrote as the first response to someone asking a question:

A lever is an excellent choice for a beginner. Because of their narrower/taller basket shape (they usually run between 45mm and 51mm diameter, with Achille's standard 'commercial' 58mm basket being an exception) together with their manually controlled brew pressure, manual levers are more forgiving than a pump machine.

This statement, the very first thing posted to the OPs inquiry about a machine, is contradicted by the last 60 years of espresso machine design. It is also contradicted by the two most common themes among home lever users: that lever machines are harder to use than pump machines; and that their narrow baskets are a limitation, not a blessing.

So, in terms of giving balanced advice on what machine to buy, this post is, quite simply, a lie. It is an outrageous violation of the norms required to make this board successful, one of which is to give balanced, objective answers to questions, and separating your opinions from the community consensus.

Timo, you can opine all you want. But when someone asks a question, they don't want Timo's opinion, they want the consensus view by experienced people. As someone with no experience on good pump machines, commercial machines, or the Achille, it was not your place to answer this post, it was Cannonfodder's or HB's, who tested the machine. If you answer the post, it was not your place to falsely give your opinions as fact, but to give the consensus of lever users, then disagree if you want to. You owe the OP an apology, and this matter won't be closed until you give it.

[MINI c]

Thanks Zix,

It's all coming back to me now. I was becoming a "basket" case from reading my own thread.

Cliff

Cliff,

To be honest with you, the first lever machine I used was the Gaggia Achille model.

My first impressions: All around gorgeous machine, the cup tray looked a little flimsy but that would be it for external flaws. The grips on the handles are from the antique Gaggia machines which give it a nice, retro look to the machine. The housing is wrapped perfectly with again, a retro design, the shudder patter around the machine.

Warm up: After drooling over the machine for a few minutes, trying to figure out every aspect and angle of the machine, I finally plugged it in. The heat up was about ten minutes and at that point I ran some water through the group to temp check it. Everything was in order, but as we know with Heat exchange machines, they aren't entirely stable. After pulling the cool down shot, it was time for some espresso.

The first shot: I have to tell you this before anything else, the shots were incredible off of this machine. I'm willing to say it beats out the Rancilio S24 we've had in the office for what seems to be ten years (exaggeration). The process was as simple as can be, grind, dose, tamp, lock, pull, enjoy. The crema was thick, shot was amazing, and truth be told, it was a single shot.

I would advise reading the review on this website of the machine.

[HB]

It's all coming back to me now. I was becoming a "basket" case from reading my own thread.

Glad to see you're keeping your sense of humor.

One does not need to have driven a Ferrari for that type of assertion to remain meaningful...My opinion is that it is easier to pull great singles with the narrower baskets of yesteryear.

That's good information based on hands-on experience. However, I try to avoid applying my experience on one machine directly to another with similar specs after a few missteps, one of which I documented in Pressure profiles, preinfusion and the forgiveness factor. Jim's Why is the Elektra Semiautomatica So Good? describes a similar "ah ha" experience.

The review praises the Achille for its "pump like shot nuances". If pump-like shot nuances are different than lever-like shot nuances, then these nuances could be a reason for someone who is looking expressly for a lever machine to choose another model (Elektra, Ponte Vecchio, Cremina) over the Achille?

I agree that it's a point worth considering. Dave made that point in the Espresso Performance section, comparing it to the Cremina and Microcasa. Karl elequently describes why he prefers the clarity of the Microcasa's espressos over the Cremina's. He's right, it is not a subtle difference, and I like both for different reasons.

If you answer the post, it was not your place to falsely give your opinions as fact, but to give the consensus of lever users, then disagree if you want to.

Varied opinions are welcome, but like Jim, I believe it's important to distinguish between opinion based on actual hands-on experience versus extrapolating one's experience from machine X to machine Y. As noted above, I try to avoid it after being burned a couple times by assuming similarly spec'd machines performed similarly.

I'm willing to say it beats out the Rancilio S24 we've had in the office for what seems to be ten years (exaggeration). The process was as simple as can be, grind, dose, tamp, lock, pull, enjoy. The crema was thick, shot was amazing, and truth be told, it was a single shot.

I know your affiliation with WholeLatteLove is clearly indicated in your signature, but readers should also note your profile indicates your occupation is "Sales Rep".