Is Gaggia Achille a good choice for a first time lever owner? - Page 2

[peacecup]

Dan has done a nice job of moderating the disagreement between timo and Jim. I can see both Jim's and timo's points. Timo clearly did not identify the fact that he has no experience with the Achille, and Jim certainly could have been more polite in his replies. I hope that they can shake hands, and that the lever forum can soon return to the constructive dialogue which it has always been.

Peace,

PC

[timo888]

lever machines are harder to use than pump machines ... their narrow baskets are a limitation, not a blessing.

A couple of years ago, Jim Schulman wrote of the La Peppina (narrow 45mm diameter basket, spring-driven lever) that it can hold its own

... against most commercial machines, even though it has an underweight, undersized group and an operator with a total of 24 hours lever experience.

Jim also wrote:

My initial comparisons [of the Peppina] to the Tea were promising. Like the Elektra, it produced less crema, but an improved flavor for the all washed arabica blend I was trying. I got very nice shots from the get go. Since I sincerely doubt I'm any sort of lever prodigy, I'm guessing this is a fairly simple machine to use.

Bear these earlier statements in mind when you hear that "the narrow baskets are a limitation" and take with a grain of salt the statement that "lever machines are harder to use than pump machines".

All three of my lever machines are quite easy to use, much easier than a Rancilio Silvia. (Silvia is probably the most frequently wed and most frequently abandoned espresso-machine-bride.) The Cremina, of my three machines the closest to the Achille in design, has been a very forgiving machine ever since I lowered the boiler pressure by adjusting the p-stat.

When I am duly convinced that it was ill-founded, I will retract my opinion that the choice of 58mm diameter basket makes the Achille less adept at producing singles than are the vintage levers with their narrower baskets. I would note that Dave's (cannonfodder's) initial attempts to pull singles with the Achille tended to corroborate my opinion on that subject. Admittedly, Dave is of the tight-double-ristretto persuasion. It might be fairer to the Achille to have had Karl pull singles with it, since Karl is a singles man.

But my opinion of 58mm single baskets, though not retracted, is in limbo: the picture of the Faema style single basket looked promising; it seems more forgiving than the Rancilio's extremely shallow single basket. Can we get a picture and some relevant dimensions for the Achille's single basket and some information on what other manufacturers' single baskets are a good fit for the machine? Perhaps the WholeLatteLove sales rep who sings the Achille's praises can provide this useful info in addition to the glowing sales pitch? If he wants to send me an Achille to pull singles with, and any set of single baskets, I promise to give the machine a fair assessment on that front.

You owe the OP an apology, and this matter won't be closed until you give it.

I have not offended the OP. However, you have called me a liar. As Yosemite Sam might say, Them's fightin' words! But since I have learned a lot about espresso from you, and since it was you who got me onto the Peppina in the first place, I won't ask you to apologize for the ad hominem insults you've flung my way in this thread, and will treat them as a one-time aberration. I hope you get back to your usual self real soon, pardner.

Regards
Timo

[cannonfodder]

My apologies Clifford. Let me get back to the original question.

Yes, I think the Achille would make a wonderful first (and probably last) lever espresso machine. The commercial 58mm portafilter appears to make the machine much more forgiving and easier to learn. The heat exchanger design also give you a measure of consistency and longevity in use that most lever machines do not have (related to overheating after 3 shots).

I am not one to suggest 'renting' an espresso machine, but if you get one and change your mind, you can always return or exchange the unit. Don't forget it also includes a 2 year warranty. Something I have never seen with any other machine.

I have personally used the La Pavoni, Elektra, Cremina, and Achille. Given the pick of the lot, I would go with either the Cremina or Achille (for my taste), if I had to throw my hard earned cash on the counter, the Achille would win at 1/3 the cost of the Cremina.

I tried to hit both the strengths and weaknesses of the machine in the review so if you have read the buyer's guide and bench review, you know what my thoughts are about the machine.

[bill]

Clifford,
I have to second cannonfodder's response with the qualification that I've never even seen one of these machines. However, having owned and used several levers, including the La Pavoni, Elektra, and La Riviera, I can testify that the machine I currently use, a Gaggia commercial machine with the 58 mm group is by far the easiest to use of any of these. Other machines with the 58 mm group I've owned, a Conti and a Futurmat, also with 58 mm groups were equally easy to use. My conclusion, for what it's worth, is that the group size makes a big difference. If I were going to buy a machine like this today the Achille would probably be my first choice based on cannonfodder's review and my experience.

[GreatDane]

Wow, what an exchange! I have a Cremina and a SAMA lever machine. I have pulled shots on a Pavoni and a Gaggia Factory. I am also in the custom tamper business. I have a large number of customers from Europe who buy a 40.5mm and a 58mm set of tampers for pulling single shots in their LM single baskets. I am now the proud owner of 6 single shot baskets for my Cremina and I much prefer pulling two singles to make a double. From Cannonfodder's review, I think learning to pull singles on the Achille would simply be a part of the learning curve. I also think that everyone needs to check out the work that Alchemist John did using the pressure gauge on the Pavoni. Having been there, there is a reasonably narrow sweet spot with a lever machine. The advantage and deceptive disadvantage is you can get a decent shot over a broad latitude. As I have applied the principles of what was learned with Alchemist John, I am now getting espresso that I couldn't have imagined 2 months ago. Personally, I don't want to settle for decent, I want outstanding. This mornings shots were thick and full of crema. The extraction was rich and smooth with a mouth feel that I have never experienced with an electric pump machine. There was only hints of caramel and sweet chocolate. There was not a hint of bitterness. The principles that Jim S. pointed out need to be taken very seriously when using a manual lever machine. In once sense these machines are much more forgiving and in another they can be monsters. I have been trying to teach my daughter how to pull shots and she is baffled. This is a girl that is a science major and a straight A student in college. Want to be baffled, I was at Alchemist's, until I blew the dust out of my brain concerning the behavior of liquids. Lest you need to know, Alchemist John is not really an Alchemist except when it comes to coffee and chocolate, but a professional chemist who works with fluid theory in the real world every day. So try this. Slam you puck with about 170 psi (12 plus bar), just pull the lever as hard as you can and collapse that puck. It won't stay collapsed. (Once you let the pressure off it will liquefy, the integrity of the puck is ruined anyway.) Then let the lever go and wait about 15-20 seconds, and give it a nice gentle pull at about 40 psi. It will drop nice and gentle like and you will end up with a cup of coffee that tastes about like what would come from a Mocha Pot. Alchemist John and I discovered that the best espresso shots were pulled from about 130psi to 150 psi. The puck would collapse at 160 psi. When pulling in the upper pressure levels and getting a shot we found bitterness. However an 80 or 90 psi shot didn't taste all that bad, However, if you know the taste potential of the blend, it was disappointing. The point I am trying to make is every machine has a learning curve, and I think the Achille would be an awesome machine, single or double. If you are not willing to learn how things work, you might just be better off letting an electric pump have all the fun. Personally, I like having the fun of getting the best out of my coffee. I think I have even figured out an easy way to put a pressure gauge on an Achille thanks to all the good pictures from Cannonfodder.

Les

[cai42]

Greetings,

Thanks for all your posts. Anyone know how to remove six inches off the bottom of a hanging kitchen cabinet so the Achille will fit under it.

Regards,

Cliff Isackson

[luca]

I wonder how many professional baristas in America who have experience with 58mm single baskets will agree with the statement that pulling top quality singles is as easy as pulling a top quality double. The headroom is an issue. The dose is an issue. Etc.

I'm not in America, but I'll presume that that doesn't invalidate my experience. And, yes, I agree with the statement, BUT you have to have a decent single basket. The rancilio single basket is worse than a joke. It is completely and utterly unusable and if you have one, I recommend destroying it immediately. I thought that I'd chime in because the single basket that we are using with our Synesso at work apparently came from an old gaggia baby. If the Achille uses the same basket, then maybe it won't be a problem. With both the (apparently) gaggia single and the LM single on the FB80 at my other workplace the dose required is significantly lower than for the double basket at any given grind setting. At first pour we are using two sweeping tools - one for the double and one that takes out more coffee for the single. As long as you stay on top of the grind, pulling acceptable shots is like shooting fish in a barrel. Of course, the front of the cafe being exposed to the elements makes staying on top of the grind relatively difficult, but that's life. At both places, I think that the singles produce a mildly cleaner cup, but with slightly less chocolate and richness.

I don't know if that's of any use to the OP, but there you have it.

Cheers,

Luca

[cannonfodder]

Greetings,

Thanks for all your posts. Anyone know how to remove six inches off the bottom of a hanging kitchen cabinet so the Achille will fit under it.

Regards,

Cliff Isackson

You must have very low hung cabinets. My cabinets are the standard US height of 18 inches (if I remember correctly) and the Achille fit with just a little to spare.

[cai42]

Greetings,

The specs on the Achille states that the height is over 21 inches. If wrong that would be great news. I have about 18.5 inches between the countertop and the bottom of the hanging cabinet.

Cliff

[cannonfodder]

No, that is not correct

I have measurements in the bench review, I just took a tape to it again, eyeballing it, 17 and ¾ inch.

[cai42]

Thanks for checking.

Cliff