Is a full doser always a sign of a bad cafe?

[ChrisC]

...split from Doser Accuracy by moderator...



As stated above, most home baristas grind only enough for one shot at a time, as we don't want coffee staling in our dosers, but I've seen several comments now that indicate that at least some folks here don't object to full(er) dosers in commercial environments. Even in a very busy cafe though I imagine some of that ground coffee has been in there for 5-10 minutes plus, and I've heard Mark Prince state that he's tested ground coffee sitting for between 1-5 minutes, and can clearly taste the difference with each minute that passes, and that as a result he tries to go from grind to pulling the shot in less than a minute. All the really good cafes I frequent grind for each shot and clear the doser, no matter how busy they are. The last time I tried an 'old school' Italian cafe where the doser was full when I ordered, the shot had crema but just tasted dead and dull, and I figured the staling grinds were probably the cause (although it could have been the beans, I don't know what their source is).

So, I guess what I'm asking is, are you guys okay with a shot pulled from a full doser (and if so under what conditions), or do you prefer a shot ground fresh just for you?

[cafeIKE]

A blend designed to suffer the indignities of a couple of the minutes in the doser, consistently pulled is preferable to a GP blend inexpertly pulled.

Shots pulled from full dosers tend to vary less than paddle-whacked shots, especially when pulled by multiple baristas.

[miKe mcKoffee]

Shots pulled from full dosers tend to vary less than paddle-whacked shots, especially when pulled by multiple baristas.

Based on? I've seen many Third Wave shops and in Competition baristi using the grind per shot paddle-whack dosing pulling very consistent shots. I've yet to see a quality shop filling the doser with grinds.

[cafeIKE]

Based on? I've seen many Third Wave shops and in Competition baristi using the grind per shot paddle-whack dosing pulling very consistent shots. I've yet to see a quality shop filling the doser with grinds.

Based on shots sampled all over the globe.

The creme de la crema may pull consistent shots by paddle-whacking, but the ROTM don't.

Just this past week, I had my first bad shot at Discovery Coffee. It was not pulled by Paul or Logan, paddle-whackers all, and it sucked. The only bad shot I've had there in a year. Paul pulled the next shot and it was sublime, as always.

On a recent trip to the eastern US, I endured a full 10 days of paddle-whacked sink shots before I found a shop that could pull a decent one. There the barista pulled from doser and I thought "Here's at least, I've got a chance" The shot, while not world championship class, was very enjoyable. Ditto every day after.

FWIW, NOT ONE of my friends who has patronized a recently opened LA shop has raved about the espresso. Several have been back more than once and all complain that consistency is non-existent. When there is a line at the bar, a doser could work wonders on improving consistency.

[HB]

FWIW, in a 15g basket a measured 15.0±1.0g amounts to very little more taste difference in the cup than normal shot to shot, day to day variation, if one stops the shot on color, not time. Light tamp, no taps, twists or twirls.

When there is a line at the bar, a doser could work wonders on improving consistency.

Not sure that I'm following you. Point 1: "anything within a gram is close enough." Point 2: "these pro baristas need a doser to get the measures right." Do you mean they're not consistently dosing within a gram? If so, that's surprising -- it's not difficult. Or are you saying they're dosing too much?

On a related note, I noticed the grinder at Murky Coffee in Arlington had a high-precision timer on it, though I didn't pay attention to whether they actually used it.

[HB]

So, I guess what I'm asking is, are you guys okay with a shot pulled from a full doser (and if so under what conditions), or do you prefer a shot ground fresh just for you?

One of the clear signs of a troubled cafe experience in the making is a doser filled with stale coffee. That said, if there's a line of people waiting for drinks, I wouldn't fuss about an auto-doser like the Kony that grinds every 12 pulls, assuming of course the drinks are good.

[Ardvaark]

On a related note, I noticed the grinder at Murky Coffee in Arlington had a high-precision timer on it, though I didn't pay attention to whether they actually used it.

I believe the only way to start the grinder is with the timer, and it is wired to automatically shut off the grinder after the time has expired. Presumably, the intention is to make it very difficult to grind too much at once by accident. However, for what it's worth, I have never noticed a barista at Murky who doesn't level off back into the doser. Clearly, they're not that worried about a small quantity of "old" grind being dosed back out.

[Bushrod]

Huh, what? I could swear they level into the knockbox at murky Arlington. No old grinds into the doser. In fact, they seem to waste quite a bit.

[Nick]

When we first started 5.5 years ago, we used Waring appliance timers (with 1.0 second resolution) to turn our grinders on and off. We haven't really used them for years, and have then hooked up to our decaf grinders only. Thanks for the reminder... those should really come off.

No leveling into the dosing chamber. Knockbox only.

Every so often, we get weird renegade barista techniques that creep into our baristas' repertoire. It's definitely possible that one or more of our folks were leveling off into the dosing chamber. They shouldn't be. I won't spare the rod.


There are a few good reasons for grinder-per-shot, and a few good theoretical reasons for the opposite.
a) if the grinds sit in the doser, they can dry up or absorb humidity, possibly throwing off the extraction rate a.k.a. throwing off the grind.
b) if a grind adjustment needs to me made, a full-doser won't allow the adjustment to be effective until the old-grind stuff is out of the doser... and by that time... you see what I mean.
c) on the other hand, there is evidence that, especially with very fresh coffee (within 1 week from roast), letting the ground coffee sit for a little while allows for some additional degassing that can yield better extraction result.

The problem is that the first two issues probably outweigh the possible benefits of the third.

[cafeIKE]

FWIW, in a 15g basket a measured 15.0±1.0g amounts to very little more taste difference in the cup than normal shot to shot, day to day variation, if one stops the shot on color, not time. Light tamp, no taps, twists or twirls.

When there is a line at the bar, a doser could work wonders on improving consistency. (emphasis added)

Not sure that I'm following you. Point 1: "anything within a gram is close enough." Point 2: "these pro baristas need a doser to get the measures right." Do you mean they're not consistently dosing within a gram? If so, that's surprising -- it's not difficult. Or are you saying they're dosing too much?

The two points are from different threads and the meaning expanded, but I'll endeavor to clarify.

Point 1 : This was a simple, unscientific test I ran for a week where I used 15.0±1.0g. Stopping shots on color, not volume or time, resulted in a shot taste variation little different from the previous week where 15.0±0.1g doses were used. No grinder adjustments were made over the two week period. The coffee was from the same roast, frozen with a couple of hours of roasting. The coffee was all days 4-8. Under those conditions, with that coffee, within a gram is close enough.

Whether Point 1 is related to Point 2 is undetermined.

Point 2 : Some pro baristas make consistent shots, regardless of how they dose. Some don't. The bad shot at Discovery Coffee was clearly overdosed as it ran very slowly and pulled too long to get a doppio volume. As the next excellent shot was pulled at the same grinder setting, a doser adjusted by the second barista may have given the first barista a fighting chance at pulling a decent shot. Both shots were pulled nekid and neither appeared to have any visual defects. In shops with a high throughput and staff not of championship calibre, a properly adjusted doser could help save the customer from sinkers.

Two weeks ago, in another shop, the poor P-W PBTC choked the machine twice before getting something resembling espresso. Presumably, it was not his first day on the job as he could talk the talk. In yet another shop last week, after a full dribbling minute, I told the P-W PTBC to either start over or return my brass. Her second attempt was a very ristretto 40 sec, which I implored her to end. Tolerable, but only just. Scenes like these rarely occur in shops with dosers used as designed.

The likelihood of getting a decent shot in a bar with a doser used as designed may be higher than that of paddle-whacked, except for exceptionally skilled baristas. Slightly stale is infinitely preferable to undrinkable.

[HB]

Under those conditions, with that coffee, within a gram is close enough... In shops with a high throughput and staff not of championship calibre, a properly adjusted doser could help save the customer from sinkers.

Championship calibre? If an experienced baristas can't consistently dose ± one gram, they were improperly trained. You may be right though that the combination of improved consistency and lower dosage could help avoid mishaps like yours at Discovery Coffee. A precision timer and doserless grinder would probably be a better answer. Mazzer is planning to introduce doserless versions of their cafe grinders later this year (more).

Scenes like these rarely occur in shops with dosers used as designed.

You refer to a cafe in the US? I've only see a few that use the doser as designed, and their espressos were among the worse I've ever tasted ("ashy cardboard flavored brown water" is the kindest description I can think of). I visited Milan and Rome many years ago, but wasn't seriously into espresso at the time. Those that I did drink were with two quick scoops of sugar from a community bowl. I thought they were good espressos, certainly better than what was served in the majority of cafes in Paris, but they were nothing remarkable.

[Jasonian]

You refer to a cafe in the US? I've only see a few that use the doser as designed, and their espressos were among the worse I've ever tasted ("ashy cardboard flavored brown water" is the kindest description I can think of).

I'll second that.

I see it far more often than I had ever wished, and in all fairness, the practice was actually improving the situation. The problem wasn't the doser. The problem was the lack of training. More often than not, situations involving "use of the doser as intended" are the direct result of a roaster trying to grasp SOME amount of control over quality standards where training just isn't present.

[cafeIKE]

Championship calibre?

Definitely. Unless the barista is capable of holding their own in at least a regional contest, they have no business using techniques that require considerable effort to master. Would you order a souffle at Denny's?

A precision timer and doserless grinder would probably be a better answer.

Unless the grinder is specifically designed for accurate delivery, a precision timer is inutile. A standard grinder dispenses the coffee in packets of varying size, not a continous flow, resulting in large dose variances.

You refer to a cafe in the US?

The world. I walk out of far more shops than I sample. Unless the barista can answer who and when in reference to the roast, they rarely get a shot. If there are many customers, on balance the likelihood of getting a drinkable shot improves when there is less mano in the process.

The problem was the lack of training.

I disagree. The problem is too much 'training.' If someone can't pull a decent shot well inside 20 minutes, they're over-trained. The problem is too many baristas practise for the WBC on customers. I didn't come for a show, just espresso.

[HB]

Definitely. Unless the barista is capable of holding their own in at least a regional contest, they have no business using techniques that require considerable effort to master. Would you order a souffle at Denny's?

I don't think it's that hard (or regionals are that easy), so let's agree to disagree. The owner can buy a super-auto to eliminate the need for training too, but that's not the sort of place I would take the trouble to patronize.

Unless the grinder is specifically designed for accurate delivery, a precision timer is inutile. A standard grinder dispenses the coffee in packets of varying size, not a continous flow, resulting in large dose variances.

True, slapping on a timer won't work for many grinders, especially for clumpy grinders like yours (the Macap MC4). But I referred to Mazzer's design, which is patented and works as claimed (see Coffee grinder-dispenser for details). I'm sure there are other grinders that have similarly effective designs.

[ChrisC]

I walk out of far more shops than I sample. Unless the barista can answer who and when in reference to the roast, they rarely get a shot.

Interestingly, in my neck of the woods at least, the cafes that can't tell me what the roast date is correspond exactly with those that use the doser as designed. The line between Third Wave and not is pretty distinct up here.

I'm guessing though, cafeIKE, that you encounter much more often the cafe that has partially implemented some Third Wave practices (eg. paddle-thwacking), but not completely (knowledge of roaster and roast date, etc.). If I understand you correctly then, your thought is that you have to be an excellent barista to be able to use the grind per shot method, and that because truly excellent baristas are few and far between, you prefer seeing the doser used as designed in most instances for consistency's sake. Is that correct?

[Ardvaark]

Every so often, we get weird renegade barista techniques that creep into our baristas' repertoire. It's definitely possible that one or more of our folks were leveling off into the dosing chamber. They shouldn't be. I won't spare the rod.

Thanks for the clarification, Nick. I'm sorry if I've started any bad rumors.

[cafeIKE]

True, slapping on a timer won't work for many grinders, especially for clumpy grinders like yours (the Macap MC4). But I referred to Mazzer's design, which is patented and works as claimed (see Coffee grinder-dispenser for details). I'm sure there are other grinders that have similarly effective designs.

From the photo's I've seen and the Mazzer's and Rocky's I've used, the (my?) MC4 is one of the least clumpy grinders. Perhaps because I don't grind stale, over-roasted, oily coffee and clean frequently? Or LA smog imparts anti-clumping properties?

If I understand you correctly then, your thought is that you have to be an excellent barista to be able to use the grind per shot method, and that because truly excellent baristas are few and far between, you prefer seeing the doser used as designed in most instances for consistency's sake. Is that correct?

With the caveats the shop has enough customers to keep a reasonable influx of fresh grind into the properly adjusted doser, yes. If the shop sells only a handful of shots per day, no. In the latter case, it's almost a certainty that any method will deliver a substandard, most likely undrinkable, shot.

[bogiesan]

The trend in Boise's coffee shops is definitely toward the automated grinder/doser/tamper.
Interesting devices that remove a complication for the owner: all of that bothersome training and supervision.
Ah, progress.

david boise ID

[ChrisC]

Ah yes, the Swift -- the 'best' of both worlds. Fresh grind, but perfect repeatability. Except the baristas at my cafes don't really like them (and I think I'm starting to agree). CafeIKE, have you tried shots from the Swift? If so, what did you think?

[luca]

Last year work exhibited at a coffee festival in Sydney. We took up a three group linea, a robur, a super jolly and a steam boiler. Between 10am and 5pm, we went through nearly 30kg of coffee. That was just a crazy day; at one point, the line actually overlapped and passed the line for the coffee company next to us, which was pretty funny. We had to dose by drop; there was no other way to do it. The grinders went pretty much non-stop all day; the super jolly overheated and crapped out half-way through, but the Robur handled it all like a champion.

I don't have a problem with cafes using dosers as designed, provided that the results are good ... and, of course, they often will not be. If the cafe is pretty much empty and the doser is full, it's definitely time to move on. If they have literally just had a rush of 20 orders and there is a little bit left, I'm willing to cut a little slack. Some commercial grinders are too slow, so it's necessary to start them grinding and leave them grinding whilst doing other things to prepare a big order (although the contents of the doser would be immediately dispensed).

As for how long coffee can sit; I think that that's a question best answered by actually trying it out for yourself.

Cheers,

Luca