Initial Impressions of the Ponte Vecchio Lusso

[timo888]

Vanelis have sent me a Ponte Vecchio Lusso for some dinner party torture testing. When I have the Lusso dialed in, I plan to take it in to the office for one of our quarterly departmental luncheons. I have been experimenting with boiler pressure settings, dose, and preinfusion technique. After using the machine for a week, I do have some initial impressions and will share them here, along with some basic information about the machine. Photos to follow.

GROUP DESIGN
The Ponte Vecchio Lusso (a plastic shield under the cup warming tray still bears the SAMA logo ) has an indirectly attached thermosyphon-heated group. Directly attached groups like that found on the Cremina 67 (later abandoned by Olympia for a thermosyphon group?) eventually overheat from the heat conducted out to the group from the boiler (if they have not overheated sooner from several pulls in succession); indirectly attached groups do not. The indirectly attached group is kept optimally heated by the self-regulating convection in the thermosyphon loop.

STARTUP, FALSE PRESSURE, WARMING FLUSH
The Lusso can be ready to make espresso in 10-12 minutes. Turn it on, wait ~ 8 minutes till the heating element light goes out, purge the false pressure with the steam wand (the manometer may drop back almost to zero) and then in a few more minutes the boiler will have reached pressurization. If the machine I have is typical, you must pull a warming flush at this point. This flush not only warms the group, it releases air which appears to remain trapped in the thermosyphon tube, impeding the thermosyphon convection. Without this flush after the purge of false pressure and the element light has gone out, the group remains very cool to the touch even after the machine has been on for several hours. With the flush, the group comes to temperature in a few minutes and stays at stable temperature for as long as the machine is turned on. With the exception of this one flush during the initial warm-up, a pre-pull warming flush is not necessary ... unless you want the water to be especially hot, as you might with a very light roast:

I have been able to walk up to the Lusso after it has been on for several hours and pull a sweet shot without any need for a cooling or warming flush. Normally I would not keep the machine on all day at home, but carried out this test to see if the machine lived up to its 'club' designation. It does.

STEAMING
The Lusso, with its large 3-liter boiler*, makes an abundance of excellent, dry steam. You can steam a cup, a pint, or a quart of milk with the three-hole tip. The tip itself is not swappable but an after-market replacement wand is available. When working with a small quantity (250ml) there is almost no need to stretch the milk -- swirling (rolling) will produce excellent microfoam very quickly. With a quart of milk in a larger vessel, stretch then roll.

PSTAT- BOILER PRESSURE AND PREINFUSION
The manual recommends that the boiler pressure be set between 1.0 - 1.2 kg/cm² (~1.0 - 1.2 bar) but anecdotally I have heard that 1.5 is not unusual for the Lusso in Italy. The cover has to be removed to gain easy access to the p-stat slotted screw. I have experimented with various settings between .9 and 1.5. There is plenty of steam even as low as .9. At .9, the pressure drops to about .7+ when steaming, the steam remains constant, and the boiler takes a few seconds to rebound afterwards. That low, the boiler pressure is not forceful enough to make a fully saturated preinfusion and it needs a manual assist (i.e. let the lever rise gently under the barista's hand part way until a drop appears in the cup -- much like working with La Peppina). At the other end of the spectrum, at 1.5, there is a very forceful boiler-pressure-induced preinfusion; pressure drops to about 1.4 during steaming, and the boiler rebounds instantly. I think the setting recommended by the manual is optimal. At 1.0 you won't see droplets in the cup if you tend to updose, but at the low end of classical dosing levels, you will. 1.1 is a good place to start.

VINTAGE SPRING-LEVER BREW PRESSURE & WATER DRAW
I have not taken the machine apart to measure the spring and compute its force, but I do suspect that the Lusso is operating at ~6-7 bar, not at 9 bar, notwithstanding assurances to that effect from my friendly contact outside Milan.
The Lusso is definitely vintage in terms of its small water draw and 45mm baskets. You won't be pulling "big gulp" triple espressos with this classic machine. A moderate dose and a light leveling tamp work well. The machine produces a very tasty espresso with a rich and syrupy (not a fluffy, mousselike) crema.

CUP WARMING TRAY
The cup warming tray will keep cups warm if the machine has been on for a couple of hours. The tray must be removed to gain access to the boiler fill cap.

DRIP TRAY
The stainless steel drip tray is 2cm deep and measures 25cm across and 8cm front-to-back. The machine requires only one small warming flush at startup, and so while the tray is adequate to handle the drippage, I would have made it deeper (there is room in the base) just so it would be a little easier for the clumsy to empty it. One grasps it on either side with the index fingers; the finger cutouts in the base were made for a Botticellian babe's delicately tapered digits (see pic above).

*EDIT: According to the factory, the boiler is made of brass, nickel-plated on the exterior only.

Regards
Timo

[jesawdy]

Heres to hoping for some internal pics, as well as that "not swappable" steam tip, the pstat, the drip tray and more.

What's your opinion of the 1200W heater? Adequate or optimal?

Thanks for sharing.

[timo888]

Jeff,
The Lusso's heating element provides nearly instantaneous recovery, and you could probably turn the steam tap on and run it for half an hour non-stop.

Pics in the offing -- camera needs a new battery. Will be sure to show the steam tip.

Regards
Timo

[Cathi]

Excellent, Timo. I'm hording my pennies as I type. I will get there ..... someday. Sigh , unless I can score a Cremina for less than $800 (Not looking too favorable at this point).

Can't wait to see the next install.

Cathi

[Arto]

Sound to be a great machine. Only WHY is the location of the boiler-cap...

[mogogear]

Nice kick off Timo...... After swapping some of the group heat info with you the other day, I warmed my Bezzera up, flushed, pulled 2 shots and let it sit for 2 hours and it did go back down to a nice "touchable" hot at idle.

I pulled a shot and it was spot on! One small note- I had adjusted my pstat from 1.1 bar down to .95 -1.0 bar.

Seeeems a bit better - but it might just be my head and not my taste buds saying that.

Looking forward to the next chapter!

[mgwolf]

Timo,
Thanks for the comments. What are your thoughts on the quality of the espresso? Is it comparable to the Cremina or La Pavoni? Could you or anyone else tell them apart in a blind taste test? Thanks. Michael

[timo888]

What are your thoughts on the quality of the espresso? Is it comparable to the Cremina or La Pavoni? Could you or anyone else tell them apart in a blind taste test?

Michael,
When dose and grind are on the mark, the quality of the espresso produced by the Lusso is very very good. It does not disappoint.

The manual lever and the domestic spring-lever produce a different espresso. Both types of machine are capable of producing godshots: the manual's espresso is Dionysian and the spring's espresso is Apollonian. Good to have both gods around, but if you had to choose... with $700-$800 to spend, and the choice of a new Lusso or a used Cremina 67 from eBay, I would take the Lusso over the Cremina 67, mainly because the Lusso offers superior inter-shot temperature stability.

Regards
Timo

[chopinhauer]

Very interesting review timo.

I'm wondering if you find the 45mm baskets a bit limiting. I mean, the single must be tiny, and the double must be smaller than the pavoni / cremina doubles, which are only the equivalent of a single on a 58mm machine. (I had a Silvia with la marzocco baskets and the single LM held the same as the pavoni double, and the pavoni double is the same size as the new cremina double baskets).

You do mention that the 45mm basket is a factor, but how much of a factor for those who like a really thick and strong espresso? In short, how would compare the shots of the lusso double against say the cremina double (using the smaller pavoni sized baskets, not the older and larger cremina baskets, not to mention the even larger elecktra baskets).

[mgwolf]

Timo,
Thanks for the comments. Another question. How do you find the build quality of the Lusso? Everyone always raves about the Cremina and I doubt that the Lusso is of the same caliber. What are your impressions as to how it's bolted together? Michael

[timo888]

I'm wondering if you find the 45mm baskets a bit limiting. I mean, the single must be tiny, and the double must be smaller than the pavoni / cremina doubles, which are only the equivalent of a single on a 58mm machine.

The water-draw on the Lusso defines the shot, I'd say, more than its basket size, though dosing on the shallower single-basket is unforgiving because of headroom issues. The double basket is much easier to work with. With the Cremina I pull singles almost exclusively-- the Cremina's single basket is quite forgiving in terms of dose. With the Lusso, I have been using the double basket.

Two pulls on the Lusso using the double basket will yield a 40ml espresso, ± a few ml, depending on the roast depth, age of roast, dose, grind, and preinfusion. I will try some three-pull shots to see what gives, but I am very happy with the quality of the two-pull 40ml espresso.

While waiting for some beans in the mail, I picked up an espresso blend roasted Full City at a local roasterie and coffee shop, where I tried a double with the blend on their Nuova Simonelli commercial machine with its 58mm baskets. The crema was more mousselike on the NS but the Lusso's shot was smoother and sweeter. Some of that difference could be attributed, of course, to differences in temperature, but some is no doubt to be explained by the different pressure profiles. The Lusso does produce a nice "Guinness effect". The Lusso did not fare poorly in that informal comparison, its 45mm baskets notwithstanding.

One can pull godshots on any basket, 45mm, 49mm, 51mm, 53mm, and 58mm.

Apart from price, for me the primary deciding issues would be the kind of lever machine one would like, manual or a spring, and whether a "personal" machine would suffice: is inter-shot temperature stability over more than two or three espressos a requirement?

Regards
Timo

[timo888]

How do you find the build quality of the Lusso? Everyone always raves about the Cremina and I doubt that the Lusso is of the same caliber. What are your impressions as to how it's bolted together?

Michael,
The plumbing on the Lusso looks very solid and the boiler materials and fittings seem to be of high quality. The welds look clean. The lever feels very secure and solid. The machine has a low center-of-gravity and does not tip. The portafilter is heavy and solid.

There are some things in the convenience, aesthetics, and fit-and-finish categories that are less than perfect, but they are relatively insignificant in the overall scheme of things:

The Ponte Vecchio's acrylic badge is ticky-tacky. Nothing should be glued to the front of the machine unless it be a truly slick escutcheon like the Milanese serpent on the Bezzera and Alfa Romeo

The Lusso's drip tray grate seems to have too few holes. Water tends to pool on its surface. Perhaps slightly larger holes (7mm instead of 4mm) would solve this problem, or more holes. EDIT: Compare a vintage commercial lever's grate (above) with the Lusso's grate (below):




I already mentioned the cup-warming tray having to be removed to fill the Lusso's boiler, and the drip tray being slightly too shallow for it to be absolutely easy to remove without sloshing the water a bit, and that the finger cutouts where the tray is lifted out are rather small.

Where steam wand and hot water wand emerge from the faceplate they are not perfectly centered in the holes.

The hot water wand has to be used gingerly especially if one places a small cup beneath it; the water will come out with a lot of force if you turn the tap too far, and it can splash. EDIT: much better to set the cup on the drip tray than to hold it by hand beneath the hot water wand.

The steam and hot water knobs are mounted on the side and to the rear. I find front-mounted knobs more convenient, but were they placed on the facade the machine would have to be wider, so it's a tradeoff. The Lusso has a relatively modest footprint, more or less half again as wide as the Cremina 67.

Where they meet the base, the side panels flare out toward you a few millimeters and there is a small gap at the bottom left and right corners. But you have to look very closely and from a side angle to even notice this.

Though the faceplate, warming tray, drip tray grate and the tray itself are stainless, from the Ponte Vecchio website, I am under the impression that the Lusso is made (though perhaps not imported) with either a chrome-plated case (the site says "chromate") or an oven-baked enamel case ("tobacco, white, black, red"). On the top-left corner of the chrome-plated side-panel of the machine I was sent, there is a little nick (about 3mm across) where the base metal is showing through. Judging from the frequency with which H-Bers have their machines custom-painted in body shops, perhaps the enameled panels would be a better choice, if they are available.

Regards
Timo

[bill]

Timo,
Your review of the Lusso is very interesting and well done. I can't picture ever giving up my commercial Gaggia but if I did have to go with a smaller machine it would be the Lusso.
Re the concern by others of the 'small' 45 mm basket I don't see it as an issue. My first spring-lever machine, La Riviera, used the same group as the Lusso, or at least I think it did. The double basket was deeper then that of a 49 mm Pavoni and the Elektra. I checked it once and found the Riviera's basket to hold more coffee then the Pavoni and essentially the same as the Elektra. All could make great espresso.
Bill

[timo888]

Re the concern by others of the 'small' 45 mm basket I don't see it as an issue. My first spring-lever machine, La Riviera, used the same group as the Lusso, or at least I think it did. The double basket was deeper then that of a 49 mm Pavoni and the Elektra. I checked it once and found the Riviera's basket to hold more coffee then the Pavoni and essentially the same as the Elektra. All could make great espresso.

Bill,
Thanks for the corroboration on the basket issue. I have been dosing the double basket to the rim and using a modified ChicagoChop-Stockfleth combo, with the edge of the stainless spoon handle, and then tamping very very lightly, just enough to level the surface and get 6mm of headroom. It is easy to put the machine into a semi-stall by tamping with too much force.

The Riviera's group does look very similar in shape. I have not seen one in person to know if it is the same size and mass. Did the Riviera have a thermosyphon?




Regards
Timo

[Trisha]

The selection of one most knowledgable, objective and certainly the embodiment deservingly considered a home barista must indeed be you, Timo (if Mo had been selected, the girls in the shop would quarrel incessantly, if nothing else; and Karl would see the Lusso showing up with a U-Haul just to get to the wine cellar. . .)!

Awaiting pictures.

This promises to be most enjoyable.

Trisha

[timo888]

BTW, H-B member grong already posted some good pics of the boiler and p-stat. Maybe they can tide you over till I get my battery.

Now, ain't that a purty boiler

http://www.home-barista.com/forums/need-frothing-tips-for-my-lusso-t3137.html#33996

Regards
Timo

P.S. If only I had a U-Haul full of wine to stock my non-existent cellar with. Pennsylvania used to be a terrible place for wine but has made great strides in recent years. The head of the Commonwealth's Liquor Control Board, who recently resigned his post, managed to turn a moribund state-controlled system to consumer advantage. The State's considerable buying power enables it to buy up entire lots and pass the savings on to the consumer, even after the 24% tax. Unfortunately, there are more bargains at the high end ($75 bottles on sale for $45) than at the low end where I happen to hang out (e.g. $20 bottles on sale for $9).

[bill]

Timo,
The Riviera group was directly bolted to the boiler; no thermosyphon. It did heat up after a couple pulls.
My Futurmat, a commercial machine, did have a thermosyphon but I can't say it was much of an advantage over the commercial Conti and Gaggia which have groups bolted to the boiler. These machines are built to leave on 24/7 and my guess is they don't heat up due to the huge mass of the group. At least that's my theory.
Bill

[blallik]

My wife thinks I've totally lost it now... more pictures of the espresso machine?

Anyway, I continue to love the Lusso, having been directed to it by this forum, and thought I'd put up some of the requested pix. I have little to compare it with, but friends and neighbors are consistently amazed by the quality of the shots and it steams effortllessly and, as has been mentioned, almost forever. I'm glad Timo likes the 1.1 pressure setting, b/c I don't want to mess with mine. Shots are bigger when you get a little pre-infusion dribble from the extra pressure. A third pull works too, if you overfill the basket to begin with, but it otherwise blondes. I'm growing to love the short, syrupy shots that it seems designed to pull. I used to bring a huge go-cup of coffee with me on my morning 30 minute commute. Now I just toss down a double on my way out the door and can taste it all the way there. Big quality of life improvement, and I'm not spilling hot beverages on myself anymore in the car.

Greetings to everyone here, especially the Sama/PV crowd.

Best,

Will


Gene at Vaneli's threw in an accesory kit that included the 45mm tamper (I bought his Roma grinder at the same time).






I found the single basket to be a very tight fit and very difficult to get out. I also find that I never use it anyway.


Note the SAMA nameplate that Timo mentioned.




Depth of drip tray has been no problem for me. I do a warming flush into a cup, so all it catches are the blonde dribbles at the end of my shots.

[Dogshot]

Very interesting review timo.

I'm wondering if you find the 45mm baskets a bit limiting. I mean, the single must be tiny, and the double must be smaller than the pavoni / cremina doubles, which are only the equivalent of a single on a 58mm machine. (I had a Silvia with la marzocco baskets and the single LM held the same as the pavoni double, and the pavoni double is the same size as the new cremina double baskets).

You do mention that the 45mm basket is a factor, but how much of a factor for those who like a really thick and strong espresso? In short, how would compare the shots of the lusso double against say the cremina double (using the smaller pavoni sized baskets, not the older and larger cremina baskets, not to mention the even larger elecktra baskets).

The single basket is deep, and easily holds 7gm. I'm not sure what you mean by a thick and strong espresso, but IMO, the espresso from the PV Export (same group as the Lusso, although I don't think the Export has the thermosyphon) brings out more of the fruit tastes and sweetness, where the espresso from my Brewtus II brings out more of the chocolates, creamy textures, and low-tone flavours. Both cups are balanced at their best. If you are a body and crema junky, I would say that the PV is not your cup. For roundness, smoothness, sweetness, and bell-tone clarity, the PV is outstanding. Expressed as brew ratios, my PV shots range in the 38% to 48% dry/wet ratios using both the single and double baskets, whereas my Brewtus II shots range from 56% to 75% dry/wet (with numbers in the 60's as typical).

I should note that I have only been using my PV Export for a few weeks, and have limited my shots to 6-7gm doses in the single basket and 11-12gm doses in the double.

Mark

[timo888]

Anyway, I continue to love the Lusso, having been directed to it by this forum, and thought I'd put up some of the requested pix.

Nice pics, Will

I note the escutcheon-clutter.

A third pull works too, if you overfill the basket to begin with, but it otherwise blondes.

Yes, I think it is best to accept the machine with its classic water draw.

Gene at Vaneli's threw in an accesory kit that included the 45mm tamper

That flat-bottomed tamper works well with the double basket. A convex bottom would work well with the single basket.

I found the single basket to be a very tight fit and very difficult to get out. I also find that I never use it anyway.

The single basket does not sit properly in the portafilter when the clip is in place. The spring clip in the portafilter is, I believe, inserted by Vaneli's and is not original to the machine. Having become quite adept at dumping grounds with the Cremina and Peppina, neither of which use a spring to hold the basket in place, I removed the clip -- it comes out easily and can be easily put back in place.

Depth of drip tray has been no problem for me. I do a warming flush into a cup, so all it catches are the blonde dribbles at the end of my shots.

The depth of the tray is not a problem in terms of the amount of drippage the machine produces, which is minimal. But the tray could be made deeper (and of hard plastic like the 1992 Cremina's, to keep costs down) and have matching half-moon cutouts for the fingers, so it would be just a bit simpler to lift out if one should forget to dump it and it becomes full.

Regards
Timo