Initial Impressions of the Ponte Vecchio Lusso - Page 3

[timo888]

That is a beautiful shot. Just wondering about something I have seen a few times with Ponte Vecchio shots. Why is the shot mostly pouring out only one of the two holes? Is the machine not leveled properly or is this just a peculiarity of the portafilters?

I think there was a huge meteor passing near Earth's orbit, which warped the gravitational field and dragged the cone off-center. Certainly not to be explained by imperfections in barista technique.

Regards
Timo

P.S. The Rocket Dark Star was roasted on the 19th of the month and was 9 days old for this shot. Aromatic, mellow, sweet.

[peacecup]

Timo wrote a while back that there was a chip off the chrome on his Lusso:

perhaps the enameled panels would be a better choice, if they are available.

My Export is painted, and it also had a small chip when delivered. The enamel can also chip where it is constantly being brushed against, such as under the filler-cap cover on the Export. I just put a drop of olive oil on the metal occasionally to prevent rusting, but it will be simple to prime and touch it up.

Also, someone asked a while back about the 45 mm baskets - I consistently dose 15g into my double basket with sufficient headroom, and pull either two-pull (1oz) or three-pull (1.5 oz) ristrettos. The "official" dose for a 2 oz doppio is, I believe, 14g, so the former are "official' ristrettos. One can adjust all factors and get a 14g, 2-oz doppio with the Ponte Vecchio, but it takes practice and it may not be optimal.

I've been focusing on 15g, two-pull, 1-oz ristrettos lately - these are quite intense - that's a lot of coffee for 1 oz of water.

I posted a 15-g 1-oz, 90% crema video yesterday:

http://www.home-barista.com/forum...o-t3687.html#39425

Looking forward to the dinner party review!

PC

[peacecup]

Oh, and re: the single stream from the PF, this is due to the way they are machined - if timo can post a photo of the inside you'll see that the coffee could easily flow all one way or the other if there is the slightest lean on the machine - I don't think this reflects uneven extraction. In fact, since about the second day I used my Ponte Vecchio I have never seen any evidence of side-channeling, especially with the double basket - the tall, narrow design of the 45-mm basket makes dosing fairly foolproof.

PC

[Dogshot]

I notice a few differences between the shots Peacecup is posting and the one Timmo has posted. The Peacecup shot has more crema that lasts longer, and the shots are being extracted in 6-8 seconds pulls (12-16 second total extractions), whereas the Timmo shot is extracted in 12-15 second pulls (24-30 second total extractions, assuming dwell times are equivalent between the two styles). I see that Peacecup is using 15gms in the double. Timmo, how much coffee are you using in the double?

I have tried to replicate both styles of shot on my Export. My customary pull looks more like Timmo's shots, which seem to pour as crema which dissapates quickly, leaving only a thin layer. I use 11gm in the double basket and to get a shot more like PC's, I back off the grind by a .5 turn on my Macap (which corresponds to about .3oz difference in shot before blonding on my E61). The coarser grind leads to a quicker shot, but this shot has more persistent crema and greater mouthfeel. It is also not as sweet or smooth as the finer, longer shot.

I believe that this makes sense in light of Jim's recent work on extraction ratios. The same volume of espresso pulled from a coarser grind in a shorter period of time should extract less than one pulled from a finer grind over a longer period. Also consistent with what one would expect from an E61, a similar volume pulled from a larger amount of coffee will have greater mouthfeel, and emphasize the chocolates and bitter flavours, whereas the lower dose will have less body and greater sweetness.

So, in my experience, I would say that Peacecup's shot is a lower extraction shot than Timmo's. On my blend, the PC style shot certainly has more of the cocoa notes and mouthfeel, whereas the Timmo style shot is a sweeter, milder experience. As you suggest, Peacecup, I would agree that you are pulling ristrettos compared to Timmo's normales. Does this make sense, or agree with both your assessments?

I really enjoy both styles, and it probably would not have occurred to me to try to get a PC style shot had you not posted it.

Mark

[timo888]

Timmo, how much coffee are you using in the double?

11 ± ½g

The shot in the video was 11g.

I'm happy when the crema clings to the inside wall of the cup.

Regards
Timo

[peacecup]

I have come to understand that 14g- 2.0 oz is a normale. You need to take four pulls to get 2 oz on the PV. Mine are 2-or 3-pull ristrettos as I understand it. Timo's dose falls somewhere between the traditional 7-g single and 14-g double. I tried down-dosing after reading Jim's paper, but I don't really like the way the puck performs (seems to be less firm at removal, suggesting channeling), and I'm not sure his theories of extraction really apply to the 45-mm basket and the 2- or 3-pull technique. I'll need to experiment a bit more with it. Its very interesting how one can produce such different types of shots with one simple little espresso maker.

PC

[peacecup]

BTW, the 14-15 g pucks invariably pop out of the PF as a dry, solid puck.

[Kaffee Bitte]

Oh, and re: the single stream from the PF, this is due to the way they are machined - if timo can post a photo of the inside you'll see that the coffee could easily flow all one way or the other if there is the slightest lean on the machine - I don't think this reflects uneven extraction. In fact, since about the second day I used my Ponte Vecchio I have never seen any evidence of side-channeling, especially with the double basket - the tall, narrow design of the 45-mm basket makes dosing fairly foolproof.

PC

I figured it was one of these interesting quirks that lever machines are so lovely about. Must be nice having the depth to not have to worry about dosing. I know that it can be a huge pain in 58mm pf's. The portafilters I use at work can be pretty picky. It sometimes seems like all of my shot preparation time goes into just the pretamp prep.
Lynn

[timo888]

I have come to understand that 14g- 2.0 oz is a normale. You need to take four pulls to get 2 oz on the PV. Mine are 2-or 3-pull ristrettos as I understand it. Timo's dose falls somewhere between the traditional 7-g single and 14-g double. I tried down-dosing after reading Jim's paper, but I don't really like the way the puck performs (seems to be less firm at removal, suggesting channeling), and I'm not sure his theories of extraction really apply to the 45-mm basket and the 2- or 3-pull technique. I'll need to experiment a bit more with it. Its very interesting how one can produce such different types of shots with one simple little espresso maker.

PC

Illy's single is as follows:

Volume: 25-30ml
Ground coffee portion: 6.5 ± 1.5g
Water temperature: 90 ± 5° C
Inlet water pressure: 9 ± 2 bar
Percolation time: 30 ± 5 seconds

My two-pull double on the Lusso was slightly updosed, by Illy's traditional standards*.

Regards
Timo

P.S. Do not fear a goopy 'puck'.

*A 30ml espresso from an 11g dose on the Lusso, even with the spring-lever's somewhat lower brew pressure which is also tapering off during the pull, is ristretto in its flavor-intensity. For a ~30ml normale, one could lower the dose by a couple of grams and use a slightly finer grind.

[Javier]

Hi Timo,

Great job reviewing the PV Lusso. Two questions:

1. Is it possible to replace the spring with one that will allow the owner to pull a shot at ~ 9 bars (i.e., thicker spring and/or more coils)?

2. Will it be possible to replace the steam wand tip for an aftermarket tip (e.g., three-hole, two-hole, etc.)?

Thanks!

Javier

[timo888]

Is it possible to replace the spring with one that will allow the owner to pull a shot at ~ 9 bars (i.e., thicker spring and/or more coils)?

I suppose you could have a custom spring made with thicker gauge wire though the lever would be considerably harder to operate and the pins and bushings might not be rated for the additional stresses involved. The espresso is delicious now, and I would take the machine as it is and for what it is.

My sense of the brew pressure as ~6 bar is based on my experience with the Peppina where we did measure the spring and compute its force. A Lusso spring is on order from the PV factory in Italy, and we can compute its force when it arrives. I don't want to write 6 bar in stone just yet, though I am fairly confident of the estimate.

Will it be possible to replace the steam wand tip for an aftermarket tip (e.g., three-hole, two-hole, etc.)?

The tip is of one piece with the wand and so is not replaceable. An aftermarket wand is available with a single large bore. The machine steams very well and very quickly with its standard three-hole tip. I can steam milk for a latte into microfoam while the second pull is underway and finish before it completes.

Regards
Timo

[Dogshot]

Coming from the world of E61 machines with 58mm PFs, the Illy numbers do not mean much to me, when the typical brew is 15-18gms of coffee for 30-50ml shots. Luckily, Andy drew up his concept of brew ratios so that we could discuss the boundaries of terms such as normale and ristretto.

In Andy's chart, it looks like it is practically impossible to make a ristretto on the PV in normal operating conditions. For example, a 14gm dose in the double basket to produce a 2-pull 30gm shot lands squarely in the mid-band of a normale shot with a brew ratio of 50% (or just under). So the question for me was, can the PV actually produce anything more than a normale?

The answer, it seems, is partly demonstrated by these 2 posted shots. In replicating Peacecup's shot, it has more crema, body, and less sweetness than my version of Timmo's shot. It tasted more like a ristretto, even though the coffee weight and shot volume are the same in both shots. I'm guessing that a possible explanation is that the taller, deeper, narrower PV double basket has a greater tendency to under-extract (in keeping with Jim's supposition). The PV double basket is 45mm at the top (versus 58mm on a 58mm basket), which tapers gently to about 41mm at the bottom (where the espresso comes out - versus about 43mm on a 58mm basket), and is slightly taller than a 58mm basket. This greater tendency to under-extract is what I think allows the small volume baskets to produce richer tasting espresso than the brew ratios would imply.

Mark

[peacecup]

Who is Andy and where is the chart?

RE: baskets, I have not measured, but my double basket does not taper - it appears to be cylindrical.

even though the coffee weight and shot volume are the same in both shots

I'm not sure which two shots you are referring to - timo's and mine differed by coffee weight, and my two differed by shot volume.

PC

[mogogear]

Hey, are you two scientists using actual weighed amounts (14-15gm) when give such numbers for a sot profile?

If so -is weighing on a digital scales actually part of your regular shot routine... or is this a weighed dose of beans going into the grinder? Which would seem prone to a lot of variability....

[timo888]

Hey, are you two scientists using actual weighed amounts (14-15gm) when give such numbers for a sot profile?

If so -is weighing on a digital scales actually part of your regular shot routine... or is this a weighed dose of beans going into the grinder? Which would seem prone to a lot of variability....

I weighed the dose on a balance scale after it had been ground.

Regards
Timo

[Dogshot]

Who is Andy and where is the chart?

RE: baskets, I have not measured, but my double basket does not taper - it appears to be cylindrical.

even though the coffee weight and shot volume are the same in both shots

I'm not sure which two shots you are referring to - timo's and mine differed by coffee weight, and my two differed by shot volume.

PC

Andy's thread on brew ratios is here. The shots I was talking about were my own. Have you measured your basket? It looks cylindrical, but mine actually tapers very gently from 45mm to 41mm.

Hey, are you two scientists using actual weighed amounts (14-15gm) when give such numbers for a sot profile?

If so -is weighing on a digital scales actually part of your regular shot routine... or is this a weighed dose of beans going into the grinder? Which would seem prone to a lot of variability....

I have no regular routine with this machine yet, which is why I weigh my dose. I pull the basket from the PF, dose into it, weigh it, and put it back in for the shot.

Mark

[timo888]

In Andy's chart, it looks like it is practically impossible to make a ristretto on the PV in normal operating conditions. For example, a 14gm dose in the double basket to produce a 2-pull 30gm shot lands squarely in the mid-band of a normale shot with a brew ratio of 50% (or just under). So the question for me was, can the PV actually produce anything more than a normale?

The answer, it seems, is partly demonstrated by these 2 posted shots. In replicating Peacecup's shot, it has more crema, body, and less sweetness than my version of Timmo's shot. It tasted more like a ristretto, even though the coffee weight and shot volume are the same in both shots. I'm guessing that a possible explanation is that the taller, deeper, narrower PV double basket has a greater tendency to under-extract (in keeping with Jim's supposition). The PV double basket is 45mm at the top (versus 58mm on a 58mm basket), which tapers gently to about 41mm at the bottom (where the espresso comes out - versus about 43mm on a 58mm basket), and is slightly taller than a 58mm basket. This greater tendency to under-extract is what I think allows the small volume baskets to produce richer tasting espresso than the brew ratios would imply.

Mark

First, a correction: the PV single basket has the gentle conical taper you mention; the Ponte Vecchio double basket is cylindrical.

Second, I don't see how you reached your conclusion that it is practically impossible to pull a ristretto on the Lusso. According to Andy's scheme, the shot types are categorized according to the ratio of ground coffee dose to beverage, by weight.


A ristretto is a 1-to-1 ratio, n grams of ground coffee yielding n grams of beverage.

A normale is a 1-to-2 ratio, n grams of ground coffee yielding 2n grams of beverage.


One moderates the dose relative to the water draw. Want a ristretto? Increase the dose (and grind a little finer) relative to your normale benchmark. Want a lungo? Decrease dose (and grind a little coarser) relative to your normale benchmark. [EDIT: modifying dose rather than increasing volume because with the lever the water volume per pull does not change unless, of course, you take the cup out from under the spout.]

Regards
Timo

[peacecup]

It looks to me like a 15g, two pull, 1 oz. shot is exactly a double ristretto according to the chart (second row down, ristretto, double). A three-pull 1.5 oz shot takes us into the lower end of the double espresso realm (row 5). I usually alternate between these two, depending on if I want more or less volume and caffiene. If done correctly the three-pull can be very tasty, a little less syrupy than the two-pull.

I have not measured the double basket, but I will do so.

PC

[timo888]

It looks to me like a 15g, two pull, 1 oz. shot is exactly a double ristretto according to the chart (second row down, ristretto, double). A three-pull 1.5 oz shot takes us into the lower end of the double espresso realm (row 5). I usually alternate between these two, depending on if I want more or less volume and caffiene. If done correctly the three-pull can be very tasty, a little less syrupy than the two-pull.

I have not measured the double basket, but I will do so.

PC

Andy's ratios of ground-coffee to beverage are by weight. One weighs the dose (after grinding) and then weighs the beverage. The conventional volume of espresso in the cup may have increased over the decades, and may vary from culture to culture, but the definining characteristics of ristretto, normale, and lungo relate to the percentage of dissolved solids in the cup.

Within each type there are gradations of brew strength, so that the types merge into each other. For example, there is a 'tight' risretto, a regular ristretto, and a loose (for lack of a better term) ristretto that borders on a tight normale, so to speak. The gradient in the chart below is meant to represent this merging.



Regards
Timo

[Dogshot]

First, a correction: the PV single basket has the gentle conical taper you mention; the Ponte Vecchio double basket is cylindrical.

I am open to the idea that I am no whiz with a ruler, but my double basket measures 45mm at the top and 41mm of perforations at the bottom - have you measured any of yours?

Second, I don't see how you reached your conclusion that it is practically impossible to pull a ristretto on the Lusso. According to Andy's scheme, the shot types are categorized according to the ratio of ground coffee dose to beverage, by weight.
A ristretto is a 1-to-1 ratio, n grams of ground coffee yielding n grams of beverage.

A normale is a 1-to-2 ratio, n grams of ground coffee yielding 2n grams of beverage.

When I weigh my resulting shots, they are 15-16gms per single pull, and around 30gms for the double. Dry coffee weight divided by shot weight does not come close to the low (60%) estimate of a typical ristretto on Andy's chart. Have you been able to get a shot with a brew ratio close to 60%?

My point is that while the PV's small basket, and fixed water draw makes achieving Andy level ratios for ristrettos very difficult, it is nevertheless possible to get shots that look and taste like ristrettos

Want a ristretto? Increase the dose (and grind a little finer) relative to your normale benchmark.

This makes sense, but is not what I have experienced. Sure, increase the dose when looking for a ristretto, but the grind needs to be coarser to get the crema and body of a ristretto. To see what I am talking about, try loosening the grind a little from the point posted in your video, and using the same dose. I would appreciate your take on the resulting shot. To me, it is more like a ristretto.

Mark