Information Overload. Please help me choose an espresso machine. - Page 2

[seattlesetters]

Once again, I'm no expert. But in your shoes, I'd look real hard at the Izzo Alex and his very convenient plumb-in option.

[laservet]

I was doing some measuring today and I'm concerned that even though I have plenty of counter space, I have cabinets over all counters with 17" clearance. I'm concerned that filling the machine will be difficult. Many of the machines I am looking at are fairly large to pull out and fill with water.

I solved that problem temporarily by putting my machine on a cutting board with hard plastic feet (not "grippy" feet). It would stay in place fine for normal use of the machine but would slide out easily for filling the tank. Easy Slider feet would be too slippery.

I solved it permanently by getting a plumbed in machine.

[Tink]

I spoke to Chris Coffee today and asked about the Oscar and the Alex. The person I spoke to said that they would recommend the Alexia or Anita over them for my situation.

They felt that the Alex is a loud machine. Even with the rotary pump. The sides of the machine rattle with the pump is running.

They felt the Oscar has many positives but it can vapor lock and should not be put on a timer. Also they felt that the lack of dials make trouble shooting harder.

Chris coffee has been very informative. Out of the companies I have contacted, Chris coffee has proved the best customer service.

I saw an Elektra microcasa a leva yesterday. What a looker. It is very tempting to buy on looks.
I haven't heard much on the Bezzera. How does it compare to the pack?

I guess the longer I research this the more I think I would like to keep the price under $1500 or even $1200. Several of the machines on my list at this price range are not offered at Chris coffee. I would prefer to do business with them due to my experience so far.

In general, how much room is there for price negotiations?

[seattlesetters]

In general, how much room is there for price negotiations?

I made a purchase recently and found little room...if any...for price negotiations. However, if you get the grinder and machine as a package, some sort of discount will usually apply. It won't be much...5% or so would be common, and the vendor will usually make the offer without prompting...but you might get a bit more if you ask. I didn't ask.

Some negotiating tips: You may be able to get extended warranties as part of a negotiation when you're looking at two vendors carrying the same equipment. And accessories are something the vendor may add into the mix, as well.

You have to keep in mind, though, the type of service provided by the better vendors (the sponsors of this site, for instance), is worth quite a bit in its own right.

[MDL]

I bought my Vivaldi II from Chris last year. While I made no attempt to negoitate the machine price, Mary was very accomodating in terms of putting together a package for me with the accessories that I wanted/needed. The service that I received from Chris and Mary before, during and after purchase were unbelievable and I would go back to them without any hesitation. Honest information offered without pressure and they absolutely stand behind what they sell and will work with you to make sure that it is working as it should.
Good luck,
Mark

[Tink]

I bought my Vivaldi II from Chris last year. While I made no attempt to negoitate the machine price, Mary was very accomodating in terms of putting together a package for me with the accessories that I wanted/needed. The service that I received from Chris and Mary before, during and after purchase were unbelievable and I would go back to them without any hesitation. Honest information offered without pressure and they absolutely stand behind what they sell and will work with you to make sure that it is working as it should.
Good luck,
Mark

Mark,

Was there any discount on the package or were all items as priced on their site?

[CafSuperCharged]

I spoke to Chris Coffee today and asked about the Oscar and the Alex. The person I spoke to said that they would recommend the Alexia or Anita over them for my situation.

Remember: Anita = Andreja Premium - nicer bodywork - no-burn wand - pro-faucets
Also, the plumb-in upgrade path is gone.
As you want milk drinks, Alexia means switching temperatures between espresso and steaming milk (and waiting for the machine's temperature to go up or down).

I saw an Elektra microcasa a leva yesterday. What a looker. It is very tempting to buy on looks.
I haven't heard much on the Bezzera. How does it compare to the pack?

A fundamentally different machine from all others you mention. This one uses a sprung piston to press water through the coffee, the others a pump. The lever (leva) on this machine is used to cock the spring letting water into the cylinder with the piston. The ritual of switching on and making coffee is essentially different and I believe most users are on a timer (not their machines) in that they would switch the machine on, wait for it to heat to some time dependent temperature, and make coffee.
You have to read a thread/forum on (Elektra) lever machines to see if you can live with the ritual.

All the other machines, including professional ones, need some flush of espresso water in order to either hot water to get out of the feeding tube or to heat/cool the group that might have gone too cold/hot during idle time.
Read forums on your favorite machines and remember all that talk of these CG's about the hardware is about understanding how to get to the best ritual fastest, i.e. divine coffee most of the time.

Regards
Peter
Netherlands
Europe

[MDL]

In response to the query from Tink/Heidi:

There was a discount on my package. I don't remember the details, but I was very happy with the way they treated me.
Mark

[caeffe]

I spoke to Chris Coffee today and asked about the Oscar and the Alex..........
They felt the Oscar has many positives but it can vapor lock and should not be put on a timer. Also they felt that the lack of dials make trouble shooting harder.

Chris coffee has been very informative. Out of the companies I have contacted, Chris coffee has proved the best customer service.

I saw an Elektra microcasa a leva yesterday. What a looker. It is very tempting to buy on looks.
I haven't heard much on the Bezzera. How does it compare to the pack?

I guess the longer I research this the more I think I would like to keep the price under $1500 or even $1200. ........I would prefer to do business with them due to my experience so far.

In general, how much room is there for price negotiations?

Oscar and vapor lock- I've had my Oscar with daily use now since September - I've yet to experience vapor lock.
Oscar and timer - you can put it on a timer but you'll still have to release false pressure to get the machine up to proper pressure. You'll then have to wait at least another 10-15 minutes

Chris Coffee- if you're paying the prices you are thinking of, it's important you get good after purchase service. From what I read here Chris is one of the best in doing this.

Elektra leva - yes, she's a looker. Using a manual lever machine takes a bit more patience and practice. Similar to using a manual exposure camera and a semi-automatic camera. You'll have more control of the variables but you need to know what the variables are to know how to tweak them properly....

Have you thought about starting low - say a Gaggia Espresso or Carezza, learning with it then possibly moving up?

[CafSuperCharged]

Oscar and vapor lock- I've had my Oscar with daily use now since September - I've yet to experience vapor lock.
Oscar and timer - you can put it on a timer but you'll still have to release false pressure to get the machine up to proper pressure. You'll then have to wait at least another 10-15 minutes

Caeffe, in here, where you write "you can put it on a timer but you'll still have to release false pressure to get the machine up to proper pressure" the "false pressure" tells me there is vapor lock.

Case A (relevant here).
When it is said a machine cannot be put on a timer, what is meant is the machine has no vacuum breaker mechanism (a simple valve). So the machine builds under-pressure (vacuum) when cooling down and cannot solve this issue when heating up again. As it does not properly heat up when switched on and needs additional time after the issue is manually solved, the machine is not ready when you expect it (naively). Hence it cannot be on a timer, it is generally agreed.
Case B (not an issue with machines mentioned here)
I have seen machines where the timer is an add-on electronics board. These must have the vacuum breaker valve and mechanically be timer-ready (like in case A). The add-on timer board suggests an issue with internal electronics in that case, making the machine unsuitable for a regular timer in the mains lead (e.g. switching the mains "on" does not activate the machine).

Have you thought about starting low - say a Gaggia Espresso or Carezza, learning with it then possibly moving up?

Given the functional requirements we started with, I discarded this reasoning earlier on in my feedback. Now you mention it, I would say, the issue is the milk drink requirement. A cheaper machine will be single boiler, non-HX. Hence you need to switch temperature all the time (coffee > steam > coffee ...).
For me personally, I would be able to settle for a PID'ed Quick Mill Alexia (and, why don't we have a version without the steam, even? Yet with a rotary pump and saturated group, maybe? And plumb-in/out option?). But I do not do milk drinks. Even a PID'ed Rancilio Silvia would do fine, I guess, when you do not do steam.
(Silvia die-hards now will tell it has plenty of steam?)
If you had a separate machine to do the milk (and did not mind the visual clutter on the sink (on the coffee bar, in the coffee corner, etc.)), this would be a great option.

Regards
Peter
Netherlands
Europe

[danetrainer]

Tink wrote:I spoke to Chris Coffee today and asked about the Oscar and the Alex..........
They felt the Oscar has many positives but it can vapor lock and should not be put on a timer. Also they felt that the lack of dials make trouble shooting harder.

Here is where I posted a photo and parts description to adding a vacuum breaker, cost $17, anyone that
is handy at plumbing fittings and can bend a copper tube can install one. Problem solved and works great.

putting-nuova-simonelli-oscar-on-timer-and-loud-pop-noise-at-turn-on-t6271.html#p75701

Heidi, I was exactly in the same upgrade path as you are, I had a krups unit at home the last 10 years (I had rebuilt 3 times) I had run a 2 group Astoria at a cafe we ran 1 year, so I had some experience (definitely NOT a pro!) and I knew I wanted a machine that was commercial quality and a machine that would allow me to steam milk immediately (not having to switch a button and wait for a minute or two). Some feel the Oscar is ugly (certainly pictures don't do it justice), so do others feel a Synesso Cyncra or a Versalab is too! (To those people I say "Its about the coffee,stupid!") Anyway, just my 2 cents worth...I am definitely pleased with my Oscar. Regards,

Pat

[caeffe]

.......Caeffe, in here, where you write "you can put it on a timer but you'll still have to release false pressure to get the machine up to proper pressure" the "false pressure" tells me there is vapor lock.
Regards
Peter
Netherlands
Europe

Peter - I stand corrected then if this is 'vapor lock'. I learn more everyday here.....
Though, I was thinking more along the lines where the machine fails to pump water due to 'vapor lock' - which is a much more serious drawback/symptom than just having to open the steam wand. I guess there is more than one type of 'vapor lock'.

danetrainer does post a good fix for this if one is brave to do so....
I myself have done pressure tubes at work so would consider myself brave. Unfortunately bravery doesn't count for getting off my tush to do it as I find using the timer suffices for my time and effort.

[CafSuperCharged]

I guess there is more than one type of 'vapor lock'.

True. I overlooked the possibility of running a vapor lock in the tube to(wards) the pump.
My Andreja has this microswitch that responds to a magnet in a float in the water tank.
Others have a spring under the water tank that is weight adjusted to a minimal amount of water in the tank.
So as to prevent this and protect the pump from running dry and getting damaged.
This risk may not be very big when a barista is working on the machine to brew an espresso, however when absent and the machine decides the boiler needs to be topped up, the pump will run until infinity, it overheats and cuts off, or breaks down (whatever comes first).
And then think of all possible scenarios with plumbed in machines...

danetrainer does post a good fix for this if one is brave to do so....

Having done (DIY) some plumber's type of work on gas, water and central heating in the house, I would consider myself brave enough to make that modification as well. No big deal. However it would void the guarantee.
Now in my country, a vendor's guarantee is actually a single-sided limitation of a legal obligation.
So, the guarantee on my washing machine might be one or two years, but if a vital component breaks down some time after that period, I could still claim I was sold a product that did not meet general consumer expectations and the vendor should have it repaired for free or at a very low cost. With brands taking themselves very very seriously, I would not even have to ask.
Now imagine I have modified the machine and the pump fails ..., or the boiler water level brain box ..., or the Sirai pressurestat ..., or ...
Now the vendor has an excuse to not apply guarantee or show leniency.

So even if you can make the modification and the parts involved are under $15, you must wonder if you want this.
Of course, after you bought a second hand machine through e-bay - different story.

Regards
Peter
Netherlands
Europe

[Tink]

Peter,

Good point. I wouldn't want to void my warranty. I am wanting to purchase a machine that I will not need to make any modifications to.

I would like a machine that could be on a timer or heat up quickly. I do not want to leave the machine on 24/7.

I'm not in a big rush to make a purchase. I not sure if this is good or bad....I have more time to research and I have more time to be indecisive

[CafSuperCharged]

I am wanting to purchase a machine that I will not need to make any modifications to.

Good for you, Heidi, however with your webname Tink? I always believed the old Romans: nomen omen (est).

I would like a machine that could be on a timer or heat up quickly.

Mind you, "heat up quickly" is a function of boiler(s) volume and Watts of heating element power.
Large boiler - longer heating period. But then, it is just a matter of having the timer go "on" a bit earlier.
Large boiler to some may also mean more steam and more temperature stability, however when a large boiler is on a pressurestat, I would expect more overshoot than in a smaller boiler - but I could be totally wrong here.

I'm not in a big rush to make a purchase. I not sure if this is good or bad....I have more time to research and I have more time to be indecisive

Question to you - having started the thread with a longlist - is if you want to change your list after all this interesting debate?
A few other active threads might help you as well. Someone else started a question "what would you do?", or "what would be your second machine?". You'll find some interesting pondering there.
Just by sharing your indecisiveness, the process might speed up.

Regards
Peter
Netherlands
Europe

[Tink]

Good for you, Heidi, however with your webname Tink? I always believed the old Romans: nomen omen (est).

Ok, sorry to be so dense but I don't get it.

[Tink]

I think I would like to limit my budget to $1300. It is difficult to limit yourself when your husband, who does not drink coffee, says "buy what ever you like". He has no problem with me spending >$2000 on an espresso machine. I just do not think my "needs" justify this level of machine. Milk can cover lots of sins.

I have been looking into the lever machines. I tend to like to do things the "old way". I like baking bread, gardening, canning and driving a manual transmission. Longevity of equipment is important to me. I have been looking at the La Pavoni, Ponte Vecchio Lusso, and Export and the Elektra Micro Casa a Leva. I do have one spot in my kitchen, although not ideal, that the Elektra will fit. Since the Ponte Vecchio has a spring will it fit under my cabinets? I have 17" clearance and I am worried that the lever will not fit.

I have not ruled out pump machines, but I think unless I am really sacrificing quality I would like to keep it under $1300.

[HB]

I do have one spot in my kitchen, although not ideal, that the Elektra will fit. Since the Ponte Vecchio has a spring will it fit under my cabinets? I have 17" clearance and I am worried that the lever will not fit.

The Lusso is 18" to the top of the lever and the Microcasa is 20".

Ok, sorry to be so dense but I don't get it.

I assume he's thinking "Tink" ~ tinker.

[Tink]

I assume he's thinking "Tink" ~ tinker.

That was the only thing I came up with.

On the Lusso, could I pull it out a little when I use it and slide it back when not in use? Does the lever need to rest in the full up position?

[HB]

On the Lusso, could I pull it out a little when I use it and slide it back when not in use? Does the lever need to rest in the full up position?

Sure, it's small and easy to move around. And yes, lever espresso machines with springs rest with the lever up and the manual types with the lever down.