Info needed on 'La Cara'

[Dan Rotigel]

Hi All,

I just purchased a 16 cup 'La Cara' lever espresso machine from E-bay. It appears similar to the professional models, but does not have a pressure gauge. I googled around the net for a while and found that it may or may not have been produced by La Pavoni, but is mostly identical in design. Also, it most certainly came through Thomas Cara ltd. in San Francisco. Does anybody know the precise story on these machines? I'm looking for the following info:

How do I tell the date of manufacture?
What gasket set do I need?
Was it manufactured in italy by pavoni, and re-labeled for import to the US?
How is it different from the pavonis of the era?

Any information will be appreciated! I'll give Thomas Cara ltd. a call on monday to see what information i can dig up there.

cheers,
dan r.

[Dan Rotigel]

An update:

I e-mailed a la cara owner who was very kind in giving me some good advice. He says that the La Cara was manufactured by 'a spanish branch of la pavoni' and imported through T. Cara in SF until the early 80s. The gaskets for the grouphead are identical to pavoni, but the disassembly of the grouphead is very different. He also sent directions along, and i'll likely post pictures on the process when i get my gasket set. The bad news is that the heating elements are not interchangeable with pavoni, and no longer available! Happily, i seem to have dodged that bullet for the time being.

This CG post seems to verify the heating element issue.

I'm currently taking the machine apart for a cleaning, and hope to have pictures soon. My current problem is that there are three fasteners between the boiler and the base that are of a type i've never seen before. They are like flat, round nuts with a slot cut in the top. I imagine i need a two-pronged flat-head screw driver to take them off, and might not be able to fabricate such an item until this weekend. Does anybody know what these guys are called, or where i could get a tool for removing them? If I can source a digital camera, i'll add pictures.

cheers,
dan r.

[mogogear]

An update:

I e-mailed a la cara owner who was very kind in giving me some good advice. He says that the La Cara was manufactured by 'a spanish branch of la pavoni' and imported through T. Cara in SF until the early 80s. The gaskets for the grouphead are identical to pavoni, but the disassembly of the grouphead is very different. He also sent directions along, and i'll likely post pictures on the process when i get my gasket set. The bad news is that the heating elements are not interchangeable with pavoni, and no longer available! Happily, i seem to have dodged that bullet for the time being.

This CG post seems to verify the heating element issue.

I'm currently taking the machine apart for a cleaning, and hope to have pictures soon. My current problem is that there are three fasteners between the boiler and the base that are of a type i've never seen before. They are like flat, round nuts with a slot cut in the top. I imagine i need a two-pronged flat-head screw driver to take them off, and might not be able to fabricate such an item until this weekend. Does anybody know what these guys are called, or where i could get a tool for removing them? If I can source a digital camera, i'll add pictures.

cheers,
dan r.

Those nuts require a spanner type socket or screw driver- Use that term and search some tool sites like Harbor Freight Tools or similar. That should get you closer than using a pair of needle nose pliers

[Dan Rotigel]

That should get you closer than using a pair of needle nose pliers Wink

You know my style Mo

Seriously though, I took a good long look at the base and decided the tin worm was probably going to be fatal anyhow. With that in mind, I broke out the cold chisel and did some persuading. As it turns out, I was more than right about the base, its a lost cause, and was BARELY holding up the boiler anyhow. If nothing comes to mind, i'll break out the welder this weekend and fabricate something up...I'm thinking sort of a war-of-the worlds motif. I know something like that was posted here somewhere!

I also spoke to Chris Cara earlier today-he was very helpful, yet simultaneously condescending (asked how old I was at one point?). Maybe its a SF thing? Anyhow, his first words were 'You need to get your money back' and the second set was 'parts are no longer available.' When pressed, he admitted that the pavoni piston gaskets will work fine, yet the gasket that goes between the portafilter and the group will not. Also, the brass sleeve that screws into the grouphead is also no longer made, and frequently needs to be replaced.

He said this about the history of the machine: His father had them produced in spain from sometime after 1946 up to 25 years ago when he (thomas) was sued by pavoni. There are at least two series of machines, one with a sloping boiler top, and one with a stepped top. Mine is a slopped top, and is of the first series, perhaps from the mid/early 60s. If I was to speculate, i'd say the change from series one to two was caused by pressure from pavoni-the changes seem to try differentiate the machine from the pavoni brand/look. They all had grey bases and white cords, and there is no way to narrow the date down beyond that. I closed the conversation by asking him to post the history of the machine on the internet, but he just chuckled-perhaps he thought I was kidding?

Anyway, I've taken a liking to this orphaned machine (No longer loved! Cast out by the son of his creator!) and will probably see the restoration/modification through. Hope to install some camera software tomorrow so you guys will believe me when i say how much scale build-up there is!

cheers,
dan rotigel

[mogogear]

That should get you closer than using a pair of needle nose pliers Wink

You know my style Mo

Seriously though, I took a good long look at the base and decided the tin worm was probably going to be fatal anyhow. With that in mind, I broke out the cold chisel and did some persuading. As it turns out, I was more than right about the base, its a lost cause, and was BARELY holding up the boiler anyhow. If nothing comes to mind, i'll break out the welder this weekend and fabricate something up...I'm thinking sort of a war-of-the worlds motif. I know something like that was posted here somewhere!
....................................
cheers,
dan rotigel

You might give Will a email / call at http://www.espressorepair.com ( Home Espresso Repair) in Seattle- He is as friendly as can be and might have a spare base. He services alot of lever machines and would not be too greedy about a used base. He is highly recommended!!! I know you want to fire up the torch, but make a alter for you machine to sit on instead

[mogogear]

P.S. on the scale- go to a home-brewing store and buy yourself some citric acid -cheap - mix it up strong - maybe three or four tbls with a full boiler and fire that puppy up! If you can't fire it up- Boil some water and fill her up. It may take a few times but get her up to temp and then turn off. Let her sit and keep at it. We'll use our imagination till you get upto speed on the digital software How old are you----Cara told me to ask

[Dan Rotigel]

Ha! I'm 23 for pete's sake! Obviously too young to operate one of T. Cara's bespoke machines...

I rustled up some citric acid from a pharmacy (we get our beer from pabst cans here in applachia...) and the heating element is getting a bath on the stove as i type. I'm cycling it up to about 140F and letting it cool off; seems to be cutting the stuff well.

Also picked up iLife 04 (yeah baby!). The machine is stripped down to the grouphead:

Ugly boiler-



Dead Base-



To be or not to be?



La Cara-



Also waiting for a response from will on the base-i'm willing to keep this thing stock if possible. I should have a jig made up this weekend to unscrew the brass sleeve from the grouphead. I was actually thinking that a Portafilter with two pins drilled through it would make an excellent tool to remove the brass sleeve-you can see one of the holes and the sleeve itself in this picture- the whole thing apparently unscrews.



Nobody local is replying to e-mails about gasket questions, so i'm going to pull the trigger on a 13 gasket set for a pavoni tonight and see what lines up and what doesn't for myself. There is a hole in the back of the la cara for a h20 line-is this standard for the pavoni professional? Also, were the early professionals done with welded pieces to hold the sight glass, or were they always bolt-on items?

Probably no updates till the weekend.

cheers,
dan rotigel

[another_jim]

I'm told if you google the news groups, you'll find info in the alt.coffee archive. Use "La Cara" "mini-marcfi" and "la graziella" which are the names under which the machine was sold.

[mogogear]

As far as Will at Home Espresso repair- you might spend the money on a phone call as well, he is busy with people in the door and they are a small operation. You can get lost on email sometimes. You most likely can ask him about the best way to go on the gasket kit- He is the man!!

luck to ya

[Dan Rotigel]

The restoration rolls on, albeit after a move to Florida. The grouphead was disassembled with a super-specialty tool made with a steel pipe and a grinding wheel, i'll toss some pics in a bit. Anybody who isn't interested in the nitty-gritty of a la-cara can skip the next paragraph. The piston gaskets are straight Pavoni, and the same instructions apply after you remove the piston from the copper insert. DO NOT follow the pavoni instructions of pressing the piston out the bottom of the grouphead, use the method below or you will ruin the shower screen. There are two gaskets in the grouphead that don't appear to have pavoni equivalents, one at the top and bottom of the screw-in copper insert. Both are square gaskets, the first one (on the top of the copper insert) appears to be 2mm high, 4mm thick and 5.0cm id. The second (on the bottom of the screw, the PF rests on it) is 6mm high 5mm wide and 4.8cm id. I have them on order from 123seals.com and should hear back next week. The copper insert can be unscrewed from the grouphead like this:

1. Turn the grouphead upside down on the boiler so the latter serves as a work stand.
2. Take a pipe that is the approximate size of the PF and grind everything down except for two nipples on opposite sides of the pipe diameter.
3. After taking out the gasket that the PF seals against, you should see two holes in the copper insert that the pipe will fit into.
4. Stick it in there and un-screw it.

Now, for the question. There are two seals between the boiler and the boilerplate that holds the heating element. What sort of sealant goes between these seals? The material looks like headgasket material, but I'm a little leery of using automotive sealant on something that i drink out of. Any ideas?

cheers,
dan r.

Almost forgot-my father broke out his trusty fiberglass fender kit and went nuts with the base. Appropriately, its currently primer grey, but the repairs are strong and even waterproof! I'm thinking of going with a Ferrari motif and using crinkle paint on the base.

[mogogear]

All sounds like good progress- The crinkle paint was the early La Pavoni paint of choice. So good choice !! It is also very forgiving for small "mistakes" on paint jobs....... and looks good when a little dirty So Ferrari Red??? With chrome that should look nice- even though I don't think I have seen crinkle in Red..

[Dan Rotigel]

Nope, I'm sticking with the black crinkle...nice to know it was on the early pavoni machines as well. I'm not above putting a ferrari logo on it though

Here is the pipe-tool and a shot of how the grouphead goes together with the brass screw-in insert:



The insert itself, along with one of the two non-pavoni gaskets:



A shot of the repaired base. Lots of dremel work to size the hole correctly, but it feels solid with the boiler mounted.



I decided to use GE rtv108 silicone to hold the bottom seals between the boiler and the heating element. Its food safe, rated for temps higher than 212 and should seal well. I also got the price for custom-made gaskets from 123seals.com-about 17 bucks a piece! Luckily, I needed only two, but there has got to be a cheaper source somewhere.


cheers,
dan r.

[timo888]

There are other related silicone adhesives which are specifically rated for high temperature applications. The heating element and the metal might get much hotter than the water.

http://www.gsweb.com.tw/trade_files/en_list/en_4_003.htm

Regards
Timo

[Dan Rotigel]

Last night i fired it up and ground up some old beans...i didn't taste it, but it didn't look unlike espresso. Also, i'm damn happy my sight glass is working-I had to cut the pavoni sight-glass gasket in half to make it fit. Thanks for the link Timo, I know what you mean about the element getting hotter-this stuff is good to 400F, so i'll give it a shot before ordering more. I do have a bubbling leak at the boiler/element gasket when the whole set is at full pressure.

Does anybody know what a decent torque spec would be for those studs? Ripping off a stud would put this project on the shelf for another week at least.



cheers,
dan r.

[Seeadler]

Thank you for all the useful info which is here already together - since we might have to go through the same in the near future.
I assume since the machine was build in spain - most dimensions are metric?
All the best
Michael

[ulrikmo]

Hi Dan
Just found your thread by help from some of the other guys of the site. Seems I'm going through some of the same problems you faced a couple of months ago with your La Cara with my almost identical La Pavoni - No wonder Pavoni sued them! ( Check my photos at the thread waking up a vintage pavoni)
So, back to my problem: Since I've owned other pavonis before, I first tried loosening the dispersion screen and piston using the pavoni method, which I found out didn't work, I suspected the brass ring was screwed in, and luckily stopped before breaking it! It's however still there, haven't got past the O-ring, how did you get that loose? Mine seems to be almost glued in..
After that, I'l probably have to test my skills in constructing the pipe thing - I've moved to Iceland recently at left all my tools back in Denmark, what do I need? And then last question: Did you get the gaskets which weren't identical to those in the Pavoni ( the ones in the group )?
I don't know if you've considered it, I might try to fit a pressure gauge at the top of the sight glass, the fitting seems to be identical to the pavoni professional ( as regards the boiler size as well, at least on my machine)
Would be great to se some pics of your ferrari if it's up an running by now!

Thanks
Ulrik

[Dan Rotigel]

Ulrik-

I wasn't aware of any pavoni's that used the brass-screw method-perhaps you have a particularly early pavoni? Sorry, I'm not overly familiar with the pavoni line. I had to use a dentist's pick on the seal between the portafilter and the grouphead (the brass sleeve in particular) and it came out in many hard and small pieces. My machine is no longer leaking, but I'm still getting the chemical taste out of the espresso. Very frustruating because I can actually TASTE the good espresso behind the smell of CLR. In the mean time I re-did the wiring-the old stuff developed a short and I was getting a BUZZ that wasn't caffine whenever I touched the machine. Fixed now though.

Also, the bolts all do appear to be metric. I was unable to get any torque specs, so i left the boiler plate and other assemblys relatively loose and tightened them untill the leaking stopped-I didn't want to strip the threads!

The Pipe construction isn't difficult, but does require a correctly sized pipe and a grinder (prefferably table-mounted). I did indeed replace the gaskets in the head that were non-pavoni, but they were expensive and had to be made-to-order from 123seals.com

I have been considering a sight-glass-all of this espresso stuff is new to me, and the machine seems to be an odd-duck to begin with. For instance, I read a set of directions that stated the correct time to start pulling espresso on the pavoni is when the pressure-valve sounds off. But does the spring on my pressure valve match up with the one on the pavoni? I don't know, and I think having more feed back would help speed along my progress. I am still unclear- Do you and Seeadler have pavonis or Caras? Or did the early pavoni also have the infamous and removable brass sleeve?

cheers,
dan r.

[ulrikmo]

Hi Dan

Good to hear from you. Annoying with the chemical taste though, could it be from the gasket you've had from 123seals? Try considering anything new you've put in it, that's in direct watercontact, that means probably mostly in the group.
Mine is indeed a Pavoni, it's printed on the red label in the front of the base, although a bit blurred from aging.
So they must have had the same tricky way of holding the dispersion screen, irritating, because it comes off very easily in the newer versions.

The O-ring you had to smash, to get to the holes of the brass-ring, did that have the same size as the O-rings in the Pavoni gasket kit you ordered? Just wondering whether I should just give the hell of it and cut it out, if it's convertible with the ones they use in the newer pavoni models..
Did you have to use a lot of force to screw out the threaded brass-cylinder?

BTW, heard about people cutting there own gaskets out of silicone, has anyone tried this?

Whether you have to start brewing when the hiss ceases or start, I've got no clue of. Try measuring temp at brew-head, get a digital sugar thermometer ( should be possible to find for 15$), put it through a hole in a styro-foam cup, that is cut in the top so it fits on the group where the PF else would have been. Do your usual flush ( if you do that), and put the cup with thermometer underneath, while lifting lever. Should read around 94 celcius ( don't remember what it equals in fahrenheit). Have actually only tried this with my Valentina Junior, the method is described elsewhere on the site or on CG, look after styro-foam. This could be very interesting also since I haven't seen temp profiles of these oldies, which should perform better in that aspect than the following pre-millenium editions of pavoni's that didn't have the waterjacket.

Has anyone tried with scace-devices in lever-machines? This could be a welcomed kick into the evergoing debate about the overheating of groupheads in levermachines ( which certainly is an issue in Pavonis and many other levers).
Another way to be more precise about the temp is mounting a pressuregauge.
It will allow you to follow the boilertemp, but doesn't tell you the brewtemp, can however be used for adjustments of this ( which however might be difficult since there is no pressostat in these oldies contrary to the newer ones) but it might let you remember at what pressureading you'll have the right temp measure at group, at least for the first couple of shots before overheating starts!
Hope that wasn't too confusing. It might be, long day at the job!

Cheers
Ulrik

[Dan Rotigel]

Ulrik,

Interesting to hear the early pavonis have the sleeve as well! No, the gasket between the PF and the brass sleeve wasn't one of the ones that matched with a pavoni-i ordered it from 123seals.com. I don't think the seals are the cause of the chemical taste- more likely it is the silicon sealant and most likely it is the CLR that I used to de-scale the parts. It is going away, I just need to keep at it-i've only run perhaps 3 boilers of water through it thus far. I didn't use much force to unscrew the brass cylinder-but I had lots of leverage at the time as well from a pipe wrench.

Post pics when you can! It'll be interesting to see the copywrite infringement first hand =)

cheers,
dan r.

[civ]

Hello:

I have the same older Pavoni seal problem as you do. =-7
Did you ever get the machine working with the seals from 123?

Thanks in advance,

CIV