Importance of roast date?

[RegulatorJohnson]

hi.

i first want to say that i prefer to know the roast date of my coffee.

yesterday, i was walking through the outdoor retailer trade show. passing booths of vendors..hiking boots, tents, luggage, back packs, hmm i smell coffee...snowshoes, snowboards, skis, mmm coffee...so i toucan sam my way to the coffee booth. seems odd in a sea of unrelated products (they have t-shirts also).

anyway they have a fairly nice setup. but no coffee flowing. we start talking about their beans. i ask about roast dates. the guy tells me that "we arent a deli. deli's put dates on things" ... true but delis also sell perishable items. he assured me that even thought there is no date on the coffee that it would be guaranteed to be less than 2 weeks old. he also said "if you need a date on your coffee, you arent using it fast enough". they apparently will not sell more coffee to a shop than it can go through before it stales. (hrmmm ...what?)

this company is against dating. even expiration dates. this guy made me feel like i was totally wrong to want/need to know the roast date. i think its a policy that maximizes profits and minimizes quality.

how does everyone else feel about roast dates?
is it really that big of a deal to know the roast date? i think it is.
do you guys feel strongly enough about roast date to avoid roasters that do not disclose that information? i do.

thanks.

jon

[another_jim]

If the vendor you describe is so punctilious about selling his coffee fresh; why doesn't he use a roast date? In general, sellers are only reluctant to add information if it could harm their sales; so my reaction to roasters not dating is "guilty until proven innocent."

In rare cases, there is some justification. Exotic and expensive coffees, like COE winners, Konas, etc, can sell quite slowly, and if a shop roasts even their smallest batch size, it would go stale. I know some roasters who package these coffee and use commercial freezers (-40) to keep them fresh. They are reluctant to talk about this, since a fairly long, technical and boring lecture is required to make consumers understand how this works.

I don't even agree with this; the specialty coffee business can only survive if sellers are prepared, on occasion, to bore their customers with the facts. Cheerfully lying little ditties should be left to the Folgers of the world.

[annp]

I'm really glad you brought this up because I just had an exchange with one of the counter people at my roaster's that I'm trying to clarify. Its been bugging me for a couple of days...

Slightly different situation, in that my roaster is usually really good about dating the coffee. Matter of fact, they are pretty predictable, they roast on Monday and I usually head over there by Tuesday or so and get beans to be used by Wednesday.

Now these guys are no slouches. I've talked to the owner, it's his wife's parent's plantation is the grower for much of their coffee and they just won something SCCA. This place pretty much makes the coffee scene in Atlanta passable - at least as far as getting beans goes. We have Batdorf and Bronson as well - and I know where to pick it up on roast day.

I usually get lighter roasts from my usual place though, Monsooned Malabar, or Ethopian Yirgacheffe, which last me a week - and the Malabar is really not a two week coffee.

Since they were out of both coffees, I decided to mess around with a proper espresso roast, which was much more challenging, but yummy good when I got it right. I've been using it for a few weeks now.

When I got more last week, I asked the roast date. Usually that info is written on the bins and the counter people write it on the bag as well. I asked the roast date and the counter person said she didn't know and "it has to age longer than our lighter roasts." That's all well and good, but she couldn't quantify any of this information with roast dates or how long it has to age for!

Considering how much of a challenge getting really good shots has been from this coffee, I'm wondering if AGE is a factor? Do espresso roasts/blends age longer than other coffees?

Did I get fed a line - almost to the degree that Jon (Regulator Johnson) just got fed a line?

Ann

[Psyd]

Did I get fed a line - almost to the degree that Jon (Regulator Johnson) just got fed a line?

My standard response is that I won't buy a coffee without a roast date anymore than I'd buy dairy without a 'sell by' date. As I explained it to the 'Black Apron' at my local mermaid (long story about a special roast and a gift certificate, you don't want to know) when he asked what's so important about the roast date, "It's like opening a beer two days before you want to drink it and setting it on the counter".
That said, I'm presently conducting a bit of an experiment (OK, so I got swagged a ton of coffee at the AZ Barista Jam I volunteered at) and drinking a lot of espresso that has been roasted on the third or fourth of Jan. Some of it has done quite well, and some others have kept their composure until today and given up the ghost. Most peaked about five days out of the roaster, some at seven, and others continued to get better until around day ten! I've been adjusting prep methods continually, and here almost four weeks out of the roaster, some of them are still acceptable. Past their prime, yes, but unusable? I think not. Some of them just make swill at this point, and those will make fine gifts (what's left of them) for my Folgers drinking friends, at least they'll have something to put through that windmill of a coffee-chopper.

Final thought, if they don't want to date it, you probably don't want to buy it.

[jason_casale]

I am a wholesale roaster and we are very adamant about putting a roast date on every bag that goes out.
There is nothing lost by doing this and everything to gain. The customer then knows the coffee is fresh and the exact date it was roasted.
The only reason i can think of not to do this is if you are selling not fresh roasted coffee and you do not want anyone to find out.
Thanks Jason

[RegulatorJohnson]

word up!

i knew i was not being lame. not this time.

hehehe i have noticed that i when buy 5lbs straight from the roaster still warm and it will last about 4 weeks. it will be past its prime for sure but definitely drinkable. the first day is hard to get through with 5 lbs of blooming bean pillow filling the house with perfume.

sure i have to wait a couple of hours to get my beans, i guess i just have to wait for them to be roasted, but im getting some great beans blocks from home. this is why i support my local roaster.

i think in reality the company above is just a tshirt company that sells coffee on the side, not a coffee company selling tshirts on the side.

i guess there is a market.

how much market share do the people that care about the date hold?

thanks.

jon

[jason_casale]

You know many regular joes may not care about the roast date except for us who geek out.
But it is the principal of the thing for us as far as an honest business with integrity.
The only reason I would not roast date is if I was bulk selling to grocery stores where it is sure to be stale when buying it.
But this is not my market for that very reason. All grocery coffee is guaranteed to be stale.
I have a friend who rotates coffees from grocery stores for millstone and they think a monthly swap with fresh stuff is adequate.
A whole month wow so fresh. I wish all roasters roast dated regardless.

[HB]

how does everyone else feel about roast dates?

Coffee is a perishable food. Grocers are concerned about inventory control and 90 days shelf life is what they strive for; according to knowledgeable roasters who sell in such venues, grocers will reluctantly accept less than 90 days. However, coffee costs more than $10 / pound in my area and I see no reason to accept coffees without roast dates when I can have it delivered to my door for about the same price (if you factor in the value of my time and transportation expense) and be certain of the freshness.

Final thought... My kids don't mind breads that have a one week shelf life, but even the peanut butter and jelly crowd has no difficulty recognizing the difference between our local bakery (e.g., La Farm Bakery) and the arguably pretty good breads at Whole Foods. I just returned from a week at a conference where they "proudly serve Seattle's Best" and suffered the unpleasant reminder that quality coffee is no different than any other quality perishable food. I'm glad I brought my own coffee, grinder, and French press.

[jrtatl]

I'm really glad you brought this up because I just had an exchange with one of the counter people at my roaster's that I'm trying to clarify. Its been bugging me for a couple of days...

Slightly different situation, in that my roaster is usually really good about dating the coffee. Matter of fact, they are pretty predictable, they roast on Monday and I usually head over there by Tuesday or so and get beans to be used by Wednesday.

Now these guys are no slouches. I've talked to the owner, it's his wife's parent's plantation is the grower for much of their coffee and they just won something SCCA. This place pretty much makes the coffee scene in Atlanta passable - at least as far as getting beans goes.
Ann

HIJACK warning.

Ann, although I am moving this OT, can I ask which vendor you are using these days? Since I'm in your neck of the woods (albeit in the northern 'burbs), I'd appreciate knowing of another local vendor of quality coffee.

Thanks,

[annp]

HIJACK warning.

Ann, although I am moving this OT, can I ask which vendor you are using these days? Since I'm in your neck of the woods (albeit in the northern 'burbs), I'd appreciate knowing of another local vendor of quality coffee.

Thanks,

Hey Jeremy,

Check out Java Vino, across from Manuel's Tavern in the Highlands - on the Freedom Parkway side...

Just so you know - they are only open on Mondays really early for the AM crowd. They close when they roast all day, returning to normal business hours on Tuesday. They have a little roaster in the front of the store and roast in small batches. Smells grand when I've been over that way on a Monday!

Beware of ordering drinks in the afternoon though!

Anyway,

The owner emailed me back and said "So to answer your main question, we age each batch of espresso 5-7 days in a pressurized container before putting it in the coffee bins. Once we put it in the bin it only sits for 1 day as we go through about 5 lbs per day."

Ok, so what do you all think? Does that sound right?

Ann

[HB]

Ok, so what do you all think? Does that sound right?

Sure. The ideal rest time varies from blend to blend. For example, Intelligentsia says their Black Cat blend peak on day 4 and they roast accordingly for their cafes. Tony at Caffe Fresco recommends 5-7 days for degassing. I assume when Java Vino says pressurized, they mean packaged in some sort of container with one-way valve and the outgassing produces the positive pressure (?).

[PheasantCreek]

Everything we sell has a roast date on the bag. It is really bugs me when I go to other shops and don't find a roast date.

Top 10 peeves on the subject:

10. Expiration Date set 3 months after the roast date
9. Expiration Date set 6 months after the roast date
8. Expiration Date set 12 months after the roast date
7. No date what-so-ever
6. 5lb bags of coffee at the wholesale club - When ppl say they bought a 5 lb bag I asked them if they bought a year supply of bananas too.
5. "Bin Fill Date" - I can only imagine them emptying the bin and refilling it with same coffee and changing the date
4. Open barrels of roasted coffee at the supermarket
3. Pods
2. Pre-ground bags of coffee
1. Yes I would like a pound of Aida's Grand Reserve $60/lb coffee, can you grind that for cone?

[annp]

Sure. The ideal rest time varies from blend to blend. For example, Intelligentsia says their Black Cat blend peak on day 4 and they roast accordingly for their cafes. Tony at Caffe Fresco recommends 5-7 days for degassing. I assume when Java Vino says pressurized, they mean packaged in some sort of container with one-way valve and the outgassing produces the positive pressure (?).

They say they do - keep it in "a pressurized container while it de-gases, then all the aroma released with the CO2 will be reabsorbed by the beans over a period of time. This helps increase flavor, body, and crema in our espresso shots..." I assume the container must have a valve, otherwise if they were full enough, you'd have exploding containers, right? Or at least puffy containers?

I'm not sure about the "aroma" part of the above discussion - and I'd like to hear what Jeremy, or anyone else in Atlanta thinks after they try that coffee.

Every now and then I think - for a split second - that learning about roasting might be fun, but then the Voice of Reason prevails.

Ann

[HB]

They say they do - keep it in "a pressurized container while it de-gases, then all the aroma released with the CO2 will be reabsorbed by the beans over a period of time. This helps increase flavor, body, and crema in our espresso shots..."

I wonder what gas they pressurize it with. Air? CO2? Nitrogen? Do they let some gas escape or just let the pressure build in a stainless steel container? It would be interesting to do a blind taste test with this pressurized coffee versus coffee degassed in one-way valve bags. It's worth asking if they are willing to do an experimental cupping with you, if you're interested in that sort of thing.

[bdbayer]

Please don't beat up on me, I've only been roasting for 2 weeks. In doing so I am learning, thinking, and thinking about learning. Sometimes I know I think too much, but help me see the flaw in my train of thought.

If I put fresh roasted beans in a sealed jar with a very small hole in the lid, does the degassing not force a positive air flow out of the hole? My thinking is that if positive force (CO2) is making its way out... then oxygen can't be coming back in. After 24 hrs, when the degassing slows, couldn't I just transfer the beans to a sealed glass jar to lock the flavor.

I have been looking for the valves to make some jars, but they are difficult to find. So I have been trying to think of alternatives. What's wrong in this theory as a substitute?

I know that if you don't think too good you shouldn't think too much, but I can't help myself. I just need more information.

Thanks,
Barry

[timo888]

If I put fresh roasted beans in a sealed jar with a very small hole in the lid, does the degassing not force a positive air flow out of the hole? My thinking is that if positive force (CO2) is making its way out... then oxygen can't be coming back in. After 24 hrs, when the degassing slows, couldn't I just transfer the beans to a sealed glass jar to lock the flavor.

I have been looking for the valves to make some jars, but they are difficult to find. So I have been trying to think of alternatives. What's wrong in this theory as a substitute?

I know that if you don't think too good you shouldn't think too much, but I can't help myself. I just need more information.

You would have to ask Adolf Fick about his Second Law of Diffusion. Or buy some bags and cut the valves out.

Regards
Timo

[cannonfodder]

Please don't beat up on me, I've only been roasting for 2 weeks. In doing so I am learning, thinking, and thinking about learning. Sometimes I know I think too much, but help me see the flaw in my train of thought.

If I put fresh roasted beans in a sealed jar with a very small hole in the lid, does the degassing not force a positive air flow out of the hole? My thinking is that if positive force (CO2) is making its way out... then oxygen can't be coming back in. After 24 hrs, when the degassing slows, couldn't I just transfer the beans to a sealed glass jar to lock the flavor.

I have been looking for the valves to make some jars, but they are difficult to find. So I have been trying to think of alternatives. What's wrong in this theory as a substitute?

I know that if you don't think too good you shouldn't think too much, but I can't help myself. I just need more information.

Thanks,
Barry

Use the jar but skip the hole in the seal. I put my roasts in quart mason jars and keep them in the cabinet I store my greens in. Once a day I just loosen the ring, you get a quick PFSST and wonderful aroma. Tighten the ring back down and put back in the cabinet. After the second or third day there is no need to do it any longer and if you forget to do it for a day or two it is no big deal. Don't overcomplicate the process, it is just coffee. Keep your freshly roasted beans in a cool, dark location in an air tight container and all is well.

[timo888]

Don't overcomplicate the process, it is just coffee.

Right.

[jesawdy]

I have been looking for the valves to make some jars, but they are difficult to find.

Barry, PM me your address and I'll post you some valves from old bags.... I've been tossing my bags of late, but I still have a good bit saved up.

Timo, haha.

[bill]

Barry, PM me your address and I'll post you some valves from old bags.... I've been tossing my bags of late, but I still have a good bit saved up.

I usually buy beans from Schomer in Seattle. They come in nice little reuseable 1/2 lb bags which I save until I'm overrun and then throw them away. If anyone wants any let me know.
Bill