Illy vs locally roasted beans extraction times

[PaulM]

I've calibrated my grinder for maximum fineness and had thought that I was getting decent shots for the most part from my KA Pro line grinder. I've noticed lately, however, that my shots are lacking density, thickness and crema. My shots are starting to appear more watery and lack a good crema. I am using Illy reg roast (red top) espresso beans. My shots sometimes tend to run a bit on the quick site with most pulls lasting only 20 secs sometimes more but then of course I'm getting more than 1 oz.

I thought that I would experiment with a good locally roasted bean from the local market. They have a very good reputation. The beans are roasted quite a bit darker, quite a bit more oily than Illy. I ground them using the same setting on the grinder. What I found was that I got thicker, more syrupy shots (what I thought I should have been getting all along). The pull was around 25 secs or so. All seemed pretty good but the beans were very messy. The grouphead was covered in grinds when I removed the pf and the puck was a bit soggier than I'm used to.

With Illy, I don't get the grinds sticking to the group head. My guess is that because they're oilier, they're sticking up there. Perhaps just an occupational hazard that I'll need to get used to. I guess what I'm saying is that I actually like the mellowness of Illy and would like to continue with those.

I'm using a good quality training tamper so I'm pretty confident that I'm getting a good pressure on the grounds. I've ordered a Macap auto tamper (w/ piston style) and perhaps that will alleviate my troubles.

Any thoughts? Is my "maximum" fineness not fine enough? Any other possible solutions?

[CafSuperCharged]

... locally roasted bean from the local market. They have a very good reputation. The beans are roasted quite a bit darker, quite a bit more oily than Illy.
[...]
Any thoughts? Is my "maximum" fineness not fine enough? Any other possible solutions?

It seems like some in North America are inclined to bashing Illy coffee (not pointing at you since you give it a fair try). One of the best espressos I had on my trips in Italy was Illy, from a large commercial VBM (Vibiemme) machine and huge commercial grinders onto which Illy-branded cans with 5 kb (~11lbs) beans were screwed. The VBM was electronic/volumetric and at that size likely dual boiler.
To me this proved at least it was possible to get excellent espresso out of these Illy beans. I must admit, at home I have tried but never got anywhere near that result and gave up.
It may be you need to drop temperature to 86C - and have to experiment with that.
Also, be aware Illy beans probably are 100% Arabica, so there is no Robusta in the blend to help develop crema (oils, strength, amount, lasting and reddish specks).

One Illy related question I cannot answer is if the transportation (air? extreme altitude? degassing?) would play a part in the quality perceived in America.

This site presents treats many of the variables and parameters that influence the quality of the coffee that is pressed out of your grinds. A few important one to consider: Italian style espresso is - compared to US style - relatively underdosed, ground finer, not tamped or if so rather leveled than tamped and often done in back-to-back series where otherwise assertive self-conscious Italian customers are polite enough to let you tourist go first (they know the 2nd or 3rd serving in series is better).

Or, the blend of beans and the way it was roasted makes a lot of difference. And then all the other variables treated in this website. I have no direct experience with your KitchenAid grinder but it might well be limited to a slightly too coarse grind. I would expect it to be very suitable for drip filter and French press, maybe moka, but no espresso and certainly no Turkish grind. If still possible, instead of an auto-tamper, I would adjust priorities to a much better grinder.

Regards
Peter
Netherlands
Europe

[HB]

I've calibrated my grinder for maximum fineness and had thought that I was getting decent shots for the most part from my KA Pro line grinder. I've noticed lately, however, that my shots are lacking density, thickness and crema. My shots are starting to appear more watery and lack a good crema. I am using Illy reg roast (red top) espresso beans.

It could be the grinder (online reports on the KitchenAid Proline grinder are mixed; search on "kitchenaid grinder" here and on Google for more), it could be the coffee. I haven't used Illy coffee in years, but I remember it staled very quickly once opened. It was good on day one and marginal by day three. What you describe sounds like day four or later.

It seems like some in North America are inclined to bashing Illy coffee (not pointing at you since you give it a fair try). One of the best espressos I had on my trips in Italy was Illy, from a large commercial VBM (Vibiemme) machine and huge commercial grinders onto which Illy-branded cans with 5 kb (~11lbs) beans were screwed.

While I don't bash espressos made with Illy coffees, I can't say that I've had a "wow" experience from one. I blame most of this shortfall on the lack of freshness. According to one importer, busy cafes in Italy go though those huge screw-on tin cans in less than a day. By the time an Illy coffee is roasted, warehoused, transported to the docks, loaded on a boat and shipped overseas, warehoused a second time, and transported by truck to a local reseller, we can optimistically assume that more than a month has passed. The shipments to cafes in Italy are surely more expeditious, which may account for your better experience than those reported by forum followers living 3000+ miles from Illy's roasters.

[CafSuperCharged]

[..] I can't say that I've had a "wow" experience from one. I blame most of this shortfall on the lack of freshness.

Dan, I tried to be polite and reported I actually have given up trying.

The shipments to cafes in Italy are surely more expeditious, which may account for your better experience than those reported by forum followers living 3000+ miles from Illy's roasters.

My location will be around 700 miles from Illy's factory and I have a similar problem. The steps you describe will be the same, just the distance differs and you assume sea transportation, whereas in my case it will be over land. The significant difference with transportation within Italy then becomes less significant as a trip North/South in Italy is about the same distance as to my home. Probably Italian bars and retailers are served directly from the factory.
In Italy, Illy has to compete with other large brands like Lavazza and all the large brands have to compete with the local roasters (I guess there are between a hundred and several hundred of these) that serve coffee bars with fresh coffee. If their logistics as a large brand are not able to keep up with these factors, outlets will notice as their discriminating customers decide with their feet (they walk to another coffee bar around the corner).

I have tried Intelligentsia and Vivace coffee through express air parcel service. The packaging in these cases was not extremely sophisticated compared to Illy's tin cans and it seemed to me the coffees were at their optimum in the days after they arrived. Unfortunately a $100 order has $150 uplift attached in air fee and taxes. You do this a few times in an experimentation/learning process and to get an idea what people are talking about in a foreign forum.

Regards
Peter
Netherlands
Europe

[PaulM]

Thanks all for your feedback so far. Of special interest, perhaps, I was reading some postings on another site the other day where someone was asking a slightly similar, but unrelated question around Illy coffees. They indicated that their (red topped tin of beans) had a best before date of 08/2009 (not sure I got the month correct but it's close). Oddly enough, the tin I just bought this past weekend @ Loblaws had the exact same date. Interestingly (and disturbing at the same time), the post I was reading was from the fall of 2007. I think that in and of itself speaks volumes to Illy's freshness. We're not talking weeks or even months here. Perhaps close to a year between them roasting and landing on my counter.

I ventured back to the locally ground beans I had savoured the other day with the slow extraction (and messy pucks). I got the same results this morning with similar dosing as w/ Illy. I carefully examined my grind this morning and noticed that, compared to Illy, they were perhaps a bit moister and definitely darker/oilier. The grind seemed almost finer than Illy although I hadn't adjusted the burrs. I'm going to try backing off a notch on the burrs tomorrow morning to see if that might help. Maybe all I really needed to do was adjust the grind.

I'll keep you all posted.

[portamento]

I would like to see more people posting Illy freshness dates, as a way to get a broader sample of freshness out there and possibly estimate roast dates.

I have been watching my local grocers who carry Illy, and so far the red whole bean can has been "08/2009" since early March. I'm starting to get the feeling the U.S. distributors receive these shipments less frequently than once per month. Maybe quarterly?

[WR]

If you live in the continental US and have tried some of the amazing micro-roasted coffee in this country that can be delivered to your door within a few days of roasting... WHY ON EARTH would you drink Illy coffee? i just don't understand. Why care enough to want to crack to code of fresh vs roast date?

[Elbasso]

I must say that I've also tried to experminent with the Illy cans after having had possitive experiences with it at one of my favourite lunch rooms in Amsterdam. They also use the big 5Kg cans by the way.

I went to a big, busy supermarket, hoping they would have a big turnover of Illy cans. I located the can with the latest "best before" date and went to the register to find out that this can was actually more expensive than my usual, freshly roasted beans. It is a cool looking can though

When grinding on my normal setting, the grounds were spraying out of the chute instead of pouring out. had to grind about three notches finer than with my usual two days old roast. Even with that super fine grind some serious updosing was needed to get some body into the shots. As stated by others, the beans died on me one to two days after. None of the shots were even close to the ones made with fresh roasts.

To sum it up: for home users the only thing good coming from Illy is the can

[CafSuperCharged]

It's the can that is good?
I think the lid's seal is excellent, but the whole bean can has this valve that I don't like.
In the past I have bought a can of pre-ground Illy, thrown the coffee in the waste bin and used the can - totally satisfied .

Later I downgraded to glass ("mason") jars that I could put in the freezer (holding 250gr each).
These I replaced by jars that hold 100gr whole beans, of which I put up to 20 in the freezer and have a new - fresh - jar each (weekend) or every other (week) day.
The small glass jars have a cubic base shape and cool down/warm up very fast (being small and cubic increases the surface relative to large/round significantly).

Regards
Peter
Netherlands
Europe

[GB]

My wife prefers Illy decaf which I thought was shipped in cans containing an inert gas to preserve freshness - maybe others can clarify? I keep it frozen after the first opening and grind it before each use. But, like others on this forum I find that it's taste degrades more quickly than other coffees.

Recently I discovered when rinsing out an empty can that it did not seal - so much for the fancy can! Now I cover the top of the can with "Glad Press & Seal" wrap and screw the lid on really tight which seems to help. Decanting to a "sealable" glass jar may also help.

Good luck
Geoffrey

[gislipals]

My wife prefers Illy decaf which I thought was shipped in cans containing an inert gas to preserve freshness - maybe others can clarify? I keep it frozen after the first opening and grind it before each use. But, like others on this forum I find that it's taste degrades more quickly than other coffees.

Recently I discovered when rinsing out an empty can that it did not seal - so much for the fancy can! Now I cover the top of the can with "Glad Press & Seal" wrap and screw the lid on really tight which seems to help. Decanting to a "sealable" glass jar may also help.

Good luck
Geoffrey

The problem is that you can't 'wash' the valve since there's paper in there. IF you dry-wipe the can you should be able to use it again for new beans, but if you've wet the valve it's probably ruined

[VS_DoubleShot]

I've read in a NY Times story a while back that Illy uses a different blend in Italy and in other parts of Europe and these blends differ quite a bit from the blend sent to the U.S.

You just cannot get great results from preground coffee or really old beans, no matter how great the company is that roasted them.