If i upgrade from rancilio silvia, should i upgrade from rocky?

[atao]

I've got a pid'd rocky + silvia combo right now. I'm planning on upgrading the espresso machine to a dalla corte mini perhaps because i'm hoping it'll be a little better cup of espresso and steaming will be easier.

I did a lot of searching to see if it would make sense to upgrade the grinder, mostly interested in quality in cup, non-clumping, size of grinder.

Most of the reviews from hb and cg talk about rocky->mazzer making a big difference for an unforgiving machine like silvia. But most reviews also said that rocky->mazzer might not be very detectable on a nicer machine like a nice hx or double boiler.

I was thinking that migrating to a mazzer mini-e would be a good path. But i'm not convinced its going to improve taste in the cup or make my distribution ritual any easier. My distribution ritual is pretty easy right now actually. I grind into a cup, usually 14-16g, stir with spoon to break clumps, spoon into portafilter, shake portafilter from side-to-side to level, spin tamper in portafilter, tamp medium. pull shot.

I was considering a cimbali-mh but recent reports of it haven't really shown people being won over by the (lack of) clumplessness or the shots being better. Thought of the le'lit pl53 which seems to clump less but its not clear it'd lead to any better taste in the cup. Might be able to avoid 2 seconds of the stirring i do today, i dunno.

Comments?

thanks,
andrew

[Beezer]

I used to have a Rocky, and then upgraded to a Macap M4 stepless. Recently I upgraded again, this time to a Cimbali Max Hybrid. I'd say there is a big difference between the Rocky and the Macap, and less of a big jump from the Macap to the Max. Shots are much easier to dial in on a stepless grinder, plus the bigger burrs and doser seem to improve flavor and reduce clumps in the grind. The Max may be slightly nicer than the Macap, mostly because I don't need to do the WDT anymore and it grinds much faster. The flavor might be a bit better, but it's hard to say for sure. So I'd say definitely upgrade to a Macap or Mazzer or Cimbali if you can afford it. Whether it's worth it to spend the extra for a Max is harder to say.

[Randy G.]

I can only comment based on my own experience. About 6½ years with Silvia and Rocky and then to a VBM DS and Mazzer Kony. Rocky is a good grinder, but it is not a great grinder. The mazzer are really fine machines. I would say, go ahead and start with the Rocky with your new machine. Use that for a while, and then decide. But I do think that a grinder like a Mazzer Super Jolly or similar would be noticeable. if you switch both at once you will never know what made the biggest difference- the machine or the grinder.....

[zin1953]

Andrew,

Eli writes:

I used to have a Rocky, and then upgraded to a Macap M4 stepless. Recently I upgraded again, this time to a Cimbali Max Hybrid. I'd say there is a big difference between the Rocky and the Macap, and less of a big jump from the Macap to the Max.

It's a slightly different path (Rocky--->Macap M4--->Cimbali Max Hybrid) that you are considering, and a slightly different one than I took. My path was Gaggia MDF--->Mazzer Mini--->Cimbali Max Hybrid.

What I found was moving from the MDF (which I still own, by the way) to the Mazzer Mini did make a noticeable difference. What I also noticed, however, was that the move from the Mazzer Mini (which I no longer own) to the Cimbali Max Hybrid made a HUGE difference!

OK, so neither scenario fits your proposed switch precisely, but . . . .

Cheers,
Jason

[VS_DoubleShot]

Rocky is a great grinder for the money. I don't believe (though many do) that a new and more expensive grinder is going to make a huge difference in the quality of your espresso. A difference in the process and a slight difference in the end result are possible but your technique is most important. Great technique can overcome any machine's flaws (within reason). In all honesty, I do like the Macap better than the Rocky.

[cannonfodder]

I will counter that, I believe it would make a dramatic improvement. I have upgraded grinders a few times and found a noticeable difference between them. My last upgrade was from a Mazzer Mini to a Cimbali Max. Both grinders are in the higher echelon of the grinder food chain and I found the difference between the Mini and the Max to be quite dramatic. But let me follow that up by saying that was my taste using my kit, so your mileage may vary.

[atao]

Just wanted to say thank you to all that replied. I really value hearing about the experiences y'all have had. I hope to have some new equipment soon in order to give some more feedback myself. If i find a cheap super jolly i will probably pick that up. Otherwise, i may just try out the le'lit for fun. And i suspect the mini-e would simply be a nice way to avoid using a scale at this point. So, you can see, i pretty much am not sure where i'll go. Either way, hope to get the dc mini machine, assuming the first reviews from hb community go favorably.

-Andrew

[VS_DoubleShot]

Noticed a big difference between what and what, exactly?

What is "big"?

Just curious.

[cannonfodder]

For me, more repeatable shots, fewer grind adjustments, brighter notes in the cup (accentuating the more subtle flavors in the cup while toning down the booming earth/chocolate notes) which lead to a more balanced flavor, dare I say more clarity or possibly better flavor separation would be more appropriate. But again, that was my taste on my kit with my technique, your mileage may vary.

[Randy G.]

Noticed a big difference between what and what, exactly?
What is "big"?
Just curious.

Ask my wife... she knows.

The difference between Rocky and the Kony is huge. It brings out tastes in the coffee so different that when the grinder arrived I had to change my blend to match my taste. Of course, going from Rocky to Kony is like going from Honda to Ferrari, so this might not be the best example other than to give a data point that the grind can make a huge difference.

[VS_DoubleShot]

I agree, but when it comes to upgrading I just don't see the prices justified in the features. Ease of adjustment - sure, better burr design - maybe, slower motor speed or gear reduction - probably. Worth it? Not at home in my opinion. But we all have our own views and opinions and I don't intend to change any.

I'm a big fan of using great beans and improving technique. Talk of $600 grinders and the constant debating of the infinitesimal differences between them reminds me of people who are always chasing a high they cannot duplicate.

When I talk to the baristi I know and other people that have espresso in their veins, we talk about beans, flavor and passion and not the infinitesimal differences between $600 grinders or this HX and that HX. It makes me laugh to think if Chefs sat around arguing about what frying pan works best. They don't. They talk about taste and technique and ingredients.

[alsterlingcafe]

Sorry Vince.......it's Sunday, and you're $600 comment and the frypan thing, well, they just provided me with a nice big excuse to "not do stuff that I need to do before tomorrow AM." (I'll suffer for my procrastination tomorrow, I'm sure!!!)

I agree, but when it comes to upgrading I just don't see the prices justified in the features. Ease of adjustment - sure, better burr design - maybe, slower motor speed or gear reduction - probably. Worth it? Not at home in my opinion. But we all have our own views and opinions and I don't intend to change any.

Now Vince, you did reference your comment to "home grinders." So with that in mind, I will add that while the difference "in the cup" between $600 and $1000 isn't necessarily substantial, IMO, that's because we're primarily buying commercial endurance, which translates by virtue of larger component parts, into more consistent performance. And you basically said that. But like any hobby, if you can afford it, why not? Right?

I'm a big fan of using great beans and improving technique. Talk of $600 grinders and the constant debating of the infinitesimal differences between them reminds me of people who are always chasing a high they cannot duplicate.

I wish you'd elaborate Vince. The only debate I hear, which in reviews has been, and I paraphrase, like splitting hairs, is the Mazzer v Macap thing. (Good for Macap) And if anyone asks about doser v doserless, I have always taken a doser. So yes, I've heard a bit more of that, but then, we're hobbyists, and entitled to obsess.

When I talk to the baristi I know and other people that have espresso in their veins, we talk about beans, flavor and passion and not the infinitesimal differences between $600 grinders or this HX and that HX. It makes me laugh to think if Chefs sat around arguing about what frying pan works best. They don't. They talk about taste and technique and ingredients.

I agree. But it's because they're already equipped with a decent espresso machine and one or more $1k plus commercial grinders, and sometimes smaller Macaps or Mazzers for SO's and Decafe. Grinders don't come into port every few months or so from around the world, with varying quality; coffee beans do. So that would make sense that we'd be talking coffee, blends, SO's, etc. And about those "frying pan" discussions? I'm one that's enjoyed cooking since I was a kid, and yes, we really do care about our cookware. And I'm guessing you do too. But because we don't talk about it, doesn't mean it isn't of great importance. I think what you're comment lacked was the acknowledgment that professional food and beverage people, if they're good, already have what they hope to be the best gear for the job, and the points of discussion usually gravitate to the big variables; vendors and food.....if not workman's comp rates and cost/square foot and triple net if it's their place.

And Andrew, your final comment sounded good. If you can find a good used "commercial grinder", go for it. If you set your sights on a Macap or Mazzer, you won't be making a mistake. (unless you get talked into a doserless....................OK....................only kidding )

[Randy G.]

... It makes me laugh to think if Chefs sat around arguing about what frying pan works best. They don't. They talk about taste and technique and ingredients.

But these chefs don't buy frying pans at WalMart either. They are using commercial cookware that heats evenly and cleans up easily, and is made to last. They use commercial stoves that are designed to heat evenly with flat, level burners. In other words, these are professional tools designed to work in a commercial environment. A grinder is a precision tool. A frying pan is not. Might as well compare hammers to micrometers.

[cannonfodder]

If a skillet made a marked difference in what ended up on the plate, they would be discussing it. To each his own, I find a noticeable difference in the cup between certain grinders. Others may not, but I have yet to see someone complain that their Robur was not a worthwhile investment. If you are perfectly happy with your grinder, then by all means continue to use it.

[Marshall]

I'm planning on upgrading the espresso machine to a dalla corte mini perhaps because i'm hoping it'll be a little better cup of espresso and steaming will be easier.

Me, too. (Aren't Italian delivery dates fun?)

Anyway, if you have the patience to wait for your DC Mini, you can certainly wait to see how well it works with your Rocky. I expect a deeper, narrower portafilter will make a difference, although I am not sure what the difference will be. Wait and find out.

[Marshall]

I corresponded yesterday with a friend, who is a non-U.S. professional I trust and who has a lot of experience with DC's. He likes them a lot and said the narrow, deep portafilters were very "forgiving." This is another reason to hold off on a new grinder, until you see how well the Mini works with your Rocky.

[r-gordon-7]

And then there's the simple fact (for most of us...) where hobbies are concerned, "toys" - and discussions/comparisons of them - are fun.

r-gordon-7

[musicphan]

It makes me laugh to think if Chefs sat around arguing about what frying pan works best. They don't. They talk about taste and technique and ingredients.

They may not argue about frying pans... but they do about knives! I'll put my Global knives up against any Wusthof

[VS_DoubleShot]

My point was that it's not necessary to upgrade from the Rocky. Is it possible? Is it fun? Does it make a difference? Yes, yes and possibly. Necessary? No.

Anyway...to each his own. There's no right or wrong here, just a matter of taste and opinion. We're all here looking for great espresso.

[Randy G.]

My point was that it's not necessary to upgrade from the Rocky. Is it possible? Is it fun? Does it make a difference? Yes, yes and possibly. Necessary? No. Anyway...to each his own. There's no right or wrong here, just a matter of taste and opinion. We're all here looking for great espresso.

But... When speaking of great espresso, Rocky is a home, beginners', low-end espresso grinder. Yes it works. It worked for me (or so I thought) for 6½ years. No, it is not necessary to upgrade from Rocky, but one could argue in the same way that Rocky is overkill because a smooth, flat rock and a hammer does a sufficient job. Then we could discuss which style and weight of hammer is best....

But when compared to serious espresso grinders, Rocky pales in comparison: Small(ish) burrs which do not last as long as some people think, high rotational speed, low-tolerance upper-burr carrier threads which allow the carrier to rock, coarse adjustment stops which create a grind about 4 seconds per click, easily stalled when using oily beans, deep indentations in feed area of bottom burr carrier that hold a lot of coffee grounds and even small beans, and a doser that does not sweep clean all come to mind.