If hx machines show obvious espresso flaws, then why...

[LeoZ]

ive been thinking of this. HX machines seem to be the most temperamental in terms of shot quality. you can get a great shot with a fresh roast, good grind, good distribution, solid tamp, the winds blowing east, the moon to the west.. well, you get the idea.

now, lets say i go to the store and buy a bag of lavazza beans. assume they are ~2months old, b/c you can sort of degas the bag. grind tight, expecting the worst, and you still get a 10 sec pour with blonding after 8secs.

now, i take that same coffee, same grind, and throw it in my old ass krups thermoblock. it jams the machine. i assume its b/c the krups cant output at ~9bar as the hx can. regardless, slightly more course grind, and a better shot comes out than the hx. (yes, this is relative)

so, i experiment further, same old beans, into a full auto machine. perfect shot. pleases the masses. not bitter. not FULL of flavor as described in the 'great shot' scenario above, but good nonetheless.

well, now i wonder, why not just use some fresh beans in the full auto machine? the result? again, not a 'great shot' but still nice, everyones happy, etc.

now, im lost. sometimes its hard to keep a fresh supply of beans on hand. even with freezing some shortly after roasting, roasting myself, ordering online, and so on. one day, 15 people will show up unexpectedly, and i wont have coffee. and, i CANT go to the store and buy some lavazza or illy. why? b/c itll be much much worse than even the mediocre shots my krups can supply. so, what do i do? blush, put my 10yr old thermoblock in front of my new $1500 giotto, and supply them with lavazza? (which they still see as good, not 'strong like that big machine makes') talk about embarrassing.

i know ill get the reply "well just always have fresh coffee!" and more ridicules.. but seriously, it doesnt make sense. can these things really be that finicky?

are the double boiler semi-auto types better in this regard? if a machine that doesnt know what beans im using can always guarantee a 2oz shot in 25 secs, how the hell cant the most anal of techniques not do this consistently without the moons in alignment, as above!? i think im confused.

[miKe mcKoffee]

Saying HX machines flawed and incapable of great shots is analogous to saying my grill keeps burning and making my steaks into shoe leather. Sorry, but the problems are on the handle side of the portafilter. HX machines take some user temperature management to be sure, but your problems sound to be more in the grind and PF build department. Low end pump machines like the Krup's use pressurized PFs that don't require proper build technique. Same for super-autos.

Do you live close to anyone that can help you learn in person?

[LeoZ]

Saying HX machines flawed and incapable of great shots is analogous to saying my grill keeps burning and making my steaks into shoe leather. Sorry, but the problems are on the handle side of the portafilter. HX machines take some user temperature management to be sure, but your problems sound to be more in the grind and PF build department. Low end pump machines like the Krup's use pressurized PFs that don't require proper build technique. Same for super-autos.

Do you live close to anyone that can help you learn in person?

did i say they were flawed? i hope not. i thought i implied (ie, i wrote) they were temperamental. i do think they put out great shots, at least from what ive made, but only have myself to compare to :/

if i make a shot 4-8 days after my espresso is roasted, its great. if its too dry out, it tends to be fast (yes, could be my 'low end' QM grinder), its its too humid, tends to be slow.. and so on. ie: temperamental.

my krups doesnt have a pressurized pf, and i actually cut it bottomless. guess my $100 (at the time) krups is a high end machine. lol.

I didnt think superautos had a pressurized pf either, since the ones ive helped friends clean are simply a plastic chute with 2 holes and a squared funnel above that sits under the basket. i think the basket is square too, from what i remember the 'tamper' looking like, but cant be sure.

[RegulatorJohnson]

did i say they were flawed? i hope not. i thought i implied (ie, i wrote) they were temperamental.

what is the title of this thread?

if i make a shot 4-8 days after my espresso is roasted, its great. if its too dry out, it tends to be fast (yes, could be my 'low end' QM grinder), its its too humid, tends to be slow.. and so on. ie: temperamental.

are these issues not the same for everyone? humidity changes requiring grind changes to keep same pour. doesnt matter if i have a brewtus or a silvia or a pulser, humidity will change the pour/grind correct?

i agree...handle side of PF. sounds like grind needs to be finer to me. i have an HX and i think it is great.

jon

[randomperson]

if i make a shot 4-8 days after my espresso is roasted, its great. if its too dry out, it tends to be fast (yes, could be my 'low end' QM grinder), its its too humid, tends to be slow.. and so on. ie: temperamental.

.

Hi LeoZ! Listen, your comment above -- no kidding -- sounds like a grinder problem to me. Changes in weather will affect the grind you need, but with a great grinder those adjustments become both trivial and automatic. With my Mini e, I'm making tiny adjustments all the time -- but they seem to be second nature by now, very easy and intuitive. With this grinder I have to say that my HX (La Valentina) is not temperamental at all, but rather remarkably consistent when compared to let's say my Gaggia Classic/Rocky combo. Why not order a Mazzer from a place with a decent returns policy and check things out with that? It might solve your "temperamental problem."

Alas I have no advice re: fresh roasted coffee. Just have to heat up that credit card and keep it coming!

[LeoZ]

are these issues not the same for everyone? humidity changes requiring grind changes to keep same pour. doesnt matter if i have a brewtus or a silvia or a pulser, humidity will change the pour/grind correct?

i agree...handle side of PF. sounds like grind needs to be finer to me. i have an HX and i think it is great.

jon

if hx machines show obvious espresso flaws...

not machine flaws, but ESPRESSO flaws. meaning, not machine flaws, but flaws in the coffee, and how the machine accentuates those flaws, in the coffee.
is that more clear? i hope?

[LeoZ]

are these issues not the same for everyone? humidity changes requiring grind changes to keep same pour. doesnt matter if i have a brewtus or a silvia or a pulser, humidity will change the pour/grind correct?

i agree...handle side of PF. sounds like grind needs to be finer to me. i have an HX and i think it is great.

jon

yes, im sure they are. im not questioning the fact that they are there, im questioning the WHY. WHERE does the pickiness come from?

[RegulatorJohnson]

yes, im sure they are. im not questioning the fact that they are there, im questioning the WHY. WHERE does the pickiness come from?

from the tendency for ground coffee to absorb or give off water is my first guess.

you grind those beans and depending on the humidity they will absorb moisture from the air or if its dry they will dry out.

maybe when its a bit wetter the coffee will stick together easier on the tamp and tend to make it need a coarser grind on humid days.

on dry days the coffee drys out and doesnt pack together as tight requiring a finer grind.

this is just speculation.

inst this is one reason why you grind just before you brew. to minimize the affect air has on the coffee be it, humidity or oxidation of the delicate flavors.

jon

[LeoZ]

Hi LeoZ! Listen, your comment above -- no kidding -- sounds like a grinder problem to me. Changes in weather will affect the grind you need, but with a great grinder those adjustments become both trivial and automatic. With my Mini e, I'm making tiny adjustments all the time -- but they seem to be second nature by now, very easy and intuitive. With this grinder I have to say that my HX (La Valentina) is not temperamental at all, but rather remarkably consistent when compared to let's say my Gaggia Classic/Rocky combo. Why not order a Mazzer from a place with a decent returns policy and check things out with that? It might solve your "temperamental problem."

Alas I have no advice re: fresh roasted coffee. Just have to heat up that credit card and keep it coming!

im sure youre right.. just going to be a tough sell to my wife.
went from a tranquilo to a QM stepless, and i guess it isnt cutting it either.
just dropped a LOT of money on hardwood flooring for my house, so a grinder would be great, but ill have to hope for some luck on the cg.com buy/sell forum, for now :/
thx for the help..

[LeoZ]

from the tendency for ground coffee to absorb or give off water is my first guess.

you grind those beans and depending on the humidity they will absorb moisture from the air or if its dry they will dry out.

maybe when its a bit wetter the coffee will stick together easier on the tamp and tend to make it need a coarser grind on humid days.

on dry days the coffee drys out and doesnt pack together as tight requiring a finer grind.

this is just speculation.

inst this is one reason why you grind just before you brew. to minimize the affect air has on the coffee be it, humidity or oxidation of the delicate flavors.

jon

i understand the science behind the coffee. i dont understand why the particular type of machine, an hx, accentuates this.
if i use a superauto, or an s1, it will produce a 2oz shot in 25secs, no matter what. right?

[2xlp]

first off-

i think the stars were more aligned that you got a good shot out of a superauto than one from an semi-auto (i dont' use the term hx, as that has nothing to do with the functionality you describe). the semi-auto is a base tool with full control -- the fully auto has almost control. its programmed to perform a certain number of steps , few of which you can change.

second-

the superauto has no 'magic' that assures a 2oz 25s shot. you purely lucked out on that. it might have a timer for a 25s shot, or it might have a volumetric meter on the flowline for 2+oz -- but its wholly impossible for a superauto to magically calculate a both a 25s 2oz shot.

why?

because 2oz of espresso in the cup can mean anywhere from 2.5-5 ounces of water depending on the bean/grind (has to do with the water content of the bean). 25s has to do with a 'specific to the bean that hour' grind/amount of espresso + tamp. you can theoretically have a logic board that trains itself to take all 3 into consideration through trial and error -- or one that analyzes bean density and humidity , and calculates a particle size... but you can't walk right up to it and say "make me a great shot" . that simply doesn't exist.

[Dogshot]

ive been thinking of this. HX machines seem to be the most temperamental in terms of shot quality. you can get a great shot with a fresh roast, good grind, good distribution, solid tamp, the winds blowing east, the moon to the west.. well, you get the idea.

I think the issue here is how you are defining performance. If your primary performance criterion is 2oz in 25 seconds, then you are right - HX's, or any good espresso machine are very tempermental. However, 2oz in 25 seconds is a starting point for determining whether the extraction is any good. The ultimate criterion is what lands in the cup. If Lavazza from a super-auto satisfies the taste-buds, and is more enjoyable to use, then skip the pain/pleasure of a prosumer HX/DB. If making the best possible cup of coffee every time you drink coffee is your goal, then there is currently no more consistent or reliable means than using a prosumer/commercial HX/DB.

Mark

[RegulatorJohnson]

no matter what. right?

i think the only "no matter what" involved in espresso is that there will be water and ground coffee no matter what.

the rest is up to you or the logic board in the superauto star alignment, etc

rj

[jesawdy]

if i use a superauto, or an s1, it will produce a 2oz shot in 25secs, no matter what. right?

No. Automatic machines (super or full) usually have some volumetric dosing ability, usually a flowmeter in a commercial machine, not sure what is done in a home superautomatic. For example, it will push 75 ml of water towards the portafilter.... That water may end up in the cup, absorbed by the coffee or hit the drip tray (based on OPV setup and/or pressure released at the end of the shot). The time is controlled by the resistance of the coffee. With home superautomatics, the rule doesn't really apply so well, the shot time goes out the window (but you can try to come close adjusting the grind and or dose depending on the machine).

Interesting discussion though.... I can not confirm nor deny your observations, as I have never attempted to use something like Lavazza coffee... All fresh roasted, or fresh from the freezer fresh roasted coffee here.

I can attest that I can make a GREAT cup on an HX, a good cup on Silvia, and an okay shot on a home superautomatic all with fresh roasted.

[miKe mcKoffee]

IMO this and your other thread Home roast dictates too fine a grind? strongly indicates grinder and or PF build technique challenges. Most likely PF build technique problems since others have reported using the new QM grinder without the problems you are having, unless there is a physical problem with your QM. I've known too many people for too many years home roasting every way imaginable be it off the shelf home roast appliance or air popper, frying pan, BBQ and drum, heatgun dogbowl etc. pulling shots without problems on virtually any type machine from thrift store Krups pump to refurbed full commercial machines, single boiler HX and double boilers to think home roasted beans the issue.

Where do you live? There just may be someone who lives relatively close by who can help out in person.

[LeoZ]

im in the NYC/CT area. id love to meet with someone, it would be a first!
i dont think my grinder can get fine enough, for some reason, but that seems odd. why would my machine require such a fine grind? that seems strange.. maybe i need to pack the PF more. otherwise, i think distribution is solid. good pour and rarely any squirts. ill vid it tonight if i remember, but my cam has no sound. ill see what i can come up with though.

[2xlp]

machines don't require / dictate the grind-- the bean does.

[miKe mcKoffee]

maybe i need to pack the PF more.

Try this: fill PF about 2/3 full, lightly tap PF straight down two or three times on PF forks or counter to settle grounds, fill PF to slightly heaping, tap PF down again sequence, top off fill to very slightly heaping again. Stockfleths (optional with the tap settling), level and tamp. This should give you well over dosed PF. If at your finest grind doesn't pull 40 to 45 second ristretto you very likely have a grinder problem, finest grind above zero should give a stalled shot even too fresh light roast!

BTW, or you using single or double basket?

[LeoZ]

with a single i can stall the machine no prob. slight overfill leaves no room at all for puck clearance, so i force in and it drips out for a ristretto.
the double basket never seems to do this though, and i dont like overfilling to that point anyway. im of the mindset that a few mm space is a good thing for puck expansion..

anyway, im off for a late dinner, then i think ill play around tonight, try to get some vids. its been a while since i had a test session anyway. <sigh>

[miKe mcKoffee]

with a single i can stall the machine no prob. slight overfill leaves no room at all for puck clearance, so i force in and it drips out for a ristretto.

Just so we're clear, when I'm talking over fill that doesn't mean after tamp grinds still above basket and touch basket before start of shot! Over-fill means more grinds in the basket, but adequately compacted for very slight puck to screen clearance before start of shot.

the double basket never seems to do this though, and i dont like overfilling to that point anyway. im of the mindset that a few mm space is a good thing for puck expansion..

However, not filled enough can result in a soupy and/or as in your case fast running puck/shot. If you can stall the shot with a single basket you should be able to do the same with double basket. It's all back to PF build technique.

So if I understand you correctly your too fast shots are only a problem using double basket?

anyway, im off for a late dinner, then i think ill play around tonight, try to get some vids. its been a while since i had a test session anyway. <sigh>

West Coast and off to a right on time dinner. Just some hickory/maple/apple smoked spare ribs put on 5 hours ago:-) Just pulled the first couple half racks as they hit their 205f not quite to the falling off the bone finish target temp. (4 more racks still on gettin' there, FoodSaver Fodder ) Just need a quick grillin' to fire on a finish glaze...