If hx machines show obvious espresso flaws, then why... - Page 2

[LeoZ]

So if I understand you correctly your too fast shots are only a problem using double basket?

correct. i understand fill, overfill, etc. i compact fine, shots come out fine, no spraying, etc. i guess i just need more in the double basket. ive tried that too, but without a mid tamp. maybe i need to incorporate that, which i thought was only reserved for triple baskets.. lol

its too late now, just home from dinner, but im home tmw, so i will post vids then..

West Coast and off to a right on time dinner. Just some hickory/maple/apple smoked spare ribs put on 5 hours ago:-) Just pulled the first couple half racks as they hit their 205f not quite to the falling off the bone finish target temp. (4 more racks still on gettin' there, FoodSaver Fodder ) Just need a quick grillin' to fire on a finish glaze...

long day of work :/
nice italian place for dinner though

[HB]

i understand the science behind the coffee. i dont understand why the particular type of machine, an hx, accentuates this.

It wouldn't surprise me if a pressurized portafilter or super-auto would do a better job of producing something drinkable from stale coffee than the equipment typically discussed on this site. Marketing types who advise those designing entry-level equipment have their eye on producing something when the consumer pushes the button. So the tolerances of the extraction are far wider and the pressurized portafilter prevents a complete blowout extraction.

To use an analogy, the entry level or super-auto designer is thinking of the "Wiffle Ball" of espresso machines. Easy for the novice hit, but they understand that it doesn't go very far.

[bill]

West Coast and off to a right on time dinner. Just some hickory/maple/apple smoked spare ribs put on 5 hours ago:-) Just pulled the first couple half racks as they hit their 205f not quite to the falling off the bone finish target temp. (4 more racks still on gettin' there, FoodSaver Fodder ) Just need a quick grillin' to fire on a finish glaze...

Hey Mike,
Didn't know there was someone else here that smoked, too. (Meat that is!) Maybe we should start another thread just for us 'Q' folks.

[Kristi]

now, i take that same coffee, same grind, and throw it in my old ass krups thermoblock. it jams the machine. i assume its b/c the krups cant output at ~9bar as the hx can. regardless, slightly more course grind, and a better shot comes out than the hx. (yes, this is relative)

wanted to explore a couple of areas..
"better shot" - in what way? less bitter? no nasty tang? sweeter? I ask that because the one thing I particularly notice is that if the head temp is too low, it tastes awful! - almost nauseating. And Krups, etc, do not run low. The HX head should be at least 200 before pulling. Also I find the larger double baskets give better, more flavorful taste. Currently using the epnw "synesso" basket, which they call a triple(I think), but I call a large double. Dosing for me is always the same - slightly overfill the basket thunking several times, Stockfleth, then just level with a finger dumping the excess into the sink. Then tamp. Also, obviously you need to verify that the pf brew pressure is, perhaps, 9.5 .

Your dosing differs between the krups and the HX, I would imagine, because the diam of the baskets is different. This may also be why you are choking the krups. If it is really not putting 9 bar to the pf, then when you do get a shot from the krups, it will be underextracted, but that may also mean "tame".

Just some thoughts. Hope that helps.


Learn Stockfleth's move.
Barista skills, then grinder, then fresh beans, THEN machine!

[RegulatorJohnson]

Hey Mike,
Didn't know there was someone else here that smoked, too. (Meat that is!) Maybe we should start another thread just for us 'Q' folks.

y'all smokin' ree-ubs???

i like smoking briskets.

[miKe mcKoffee]

y'all smokin' ree-ubs???

i like smoking briskets.

Been givin' the Traeger a work-out on a re-stock the freezer smokin' spree the last week or so. Done a couple butts for pulled pork samiches FoodSaverin' baggin' up 36 samishes worth (ran out from the last butt cook NY Eve dinner ), a brisket (had for din-din last night and FoodSaver'd it up today:wink: ), whole butcher cut ham then those three big racks-o-ribs today.

I always get a kick out of those advertisements you start seein' when the weather gets nice & warm talkin' 'bout gittin' to bein' Q season. It be snowin' during part of dat ree-ub cook today. The brisket over-nighter was in the 20s warming to the 30s during next days cook finish.

I won't be without good home roast and I won't be without good smoked low & slow!

[LeoZ]

It wouldn't surprise me if a pressurized portafilter or super-auto would do a better job of producing something drinkable from stale coffee than the equipment typically discussed on this site. Marketing types who advise those designing entry-level equipment have their eye on producing something when the consumer pushes the button. So the tolerances of the extraction are far wider and the pressurized portafilter prevents a complete blowout extraction.

To use an analogy, the entry level or super-auto designer is thinking of the "Wiffle Ball" of espresso machines. Easy for the novice hit, but they understand that it doesn't go very far.

i live around the corner from the wiffle ball factory

[LeoZ]

wanted to explore a couple of areas..
"better shot" - in what way? less bitter? no nasty tang? sweeter? I ask that because the one thing I particularly notice is that if the head temp is too low, it tastes awful! - almost nauseating. And Krups, etc, do not run low. The HX head should be at least 200 before pulling. Also I find the larger double baskets give better, more flavorful taste. Currently using the epnw "synesso" basket, which they call a triple(I think), but I call a large double. Dosing for me is always the same - slightly overfill the basket thunking several times, Stockfleth, then just level with a finger dumping the excess into the sink. Then tamp. Also, obviously you need to verify that the pf brew pressure is, perhaps, 9.5 .

Your dosing differs between the krups and the HX, I would imagine, because the diam of the baskets is different. This may also be why you are choking the krups. If it is really not putting 9 bar to the pf, then when you do get a shot from the krups, it will be underextracted, but that may also mean "tame".

Just some thoughts. Hope that helps.


Learn Stockfleth's move.
Barista skills, then grinder, then fresh beans, THEN machine!

good thoughts, thanks..
better in more time i guess. hx machines pick up more nuances of the bean, so the bitters are more pronounced i think.

head temps should be fine, i keep the machine on all the time when im home. flushes are 5-6secs after sputtering. ive heard rule of thumb is end of sputtering indicates 206F water. basket is premade, so a quick swap with minimal wait time.

time for some coffee!!

[randomperson]

Leoz, unless I'm mistaken, I seem to recall an earlier post of yours about the QM that indicated you had to run the grinder close to zero to get fine enough coffee -- close enough so that you could hear the burrs touching slightly. Seems to me that your grinder is maxed out for espresso. Again, on the Mini, I have tons of headroom for espresso -- I grind nowhere near zero. Or were you able to recalibrate it satisfactorily?

Any chance you could get your hands on another grinder? I'm sure your wife will understand! (over time, after the divorce is settled in her favor.)

Also I assume you've tried varying your flush routine? 5-6 seconds after the flash seems a tad short to me -- but then again, I pull 15 seconds after the flush, and it sounds like you're doing flush and go. But I assume you've played with all these variables?

If you have, I say try another grinder!

[LeoZ]

Leoz, unless I'm mistaken, I seem to recall an earlier post of yours about the QM that indicated you had to run the grinder close to zero to get fine enough coffee -- close enough so that you could hear the burrs touching slightly. Seems to me that your grinder is maxed out for espresso. Again, on the Mini, I have tons of headroom for espresso -- I grind nowhere near zero. Or were you able to recalibrate it satisfactorily?

Any chance you could get your hands on another grinder? I'm sure your wife will understand! (over time, after the divorce is settled in her favor.)

Also I assume you've tried varying your flush routine? 5-6 seconds after the flash seems a tad short to me -- but then again, I pull 15 seconds after the flush, and it sounds like you're doing flush and go. But I assume you've played with all these variables?

If you have, I say try another grinder!

i prefer the flush-n-go technique, seems more temp stable, or at least better temp control, to me. im tired of counting second after second in my head.. lol

i whined to her last night, and she doesnt seem to mind too much in a grinder upgrade. although, just pulled a shot (crappy vids coming) and all went well. the setting is down to where it sounds like the burrs rub, and i spoke to chriscoffee about it. they said as long as its not overly loud, its ok that they rub a bit when the grinder is empty, as the burrs expand when the beans get into them.

either way, an upgrade would be nice

[LeoZ]

some vids. sorry about the quality. working on getting a vid camera.. my cam has no sound and only does 30secs at a time.

shot of tamped basket. not too much head space, i dont think.



1: distribution



2: first part of pour. cam started as soon as machine started, so pour started right around 10 secs.


3: end of pour

[RegulatorJohnson]

looks good.. taste bad??


temperature too high maybe? flush more.

i think trying to over flush too cool might give you some insight.

jon

[randomperson]

the setting is down to where it sounds like the burrs rub, and i spoke to chriscoffee about it. they said as long as its not overly loud, its ok that they rub a bit when the grinder is empty, as the burrs expand when the beans get into them.

Their answer just doesn't make any sense to me. Burrs rubbing together can't be good, especially when there are so many other grinders out there with a lot of headroom for espresso. Strike while the iron is hot -- get a new grinder!!!

And definitely try a longer flush.

[miKe mcKoffee]

some vids. sorry about the quality. working on getting a vid camera.. my cam has no sound and only does 30secs at a time.

shot of tamped basket. not too much head space, i dont think.

Look's about right but impossible to tell for sure from a picture. How's the puck after the shot?

1: distribution

Looks like a modified Stockfleth's Chicago Chop build technique. Should work, actually very similar to my technique.

2: first part of pour. 3: end of pour

What was the actual shot volume pulled? Shot looked right decent.

However, I agree should not require having grinder set to zero point to grind for a shot! Having to grind much finer setting than previous one indication of worn burrs but you haven't had the QM that long I wouldn't think. I know with Rocky one indication time for another burr replacement is needing to be down to +2 or even +1 for a ristretto pull compared to new Rocky burrs +5 to +7 for ristretto, +10 range standard shot. Has the required degree of fineness setting substantially changed since you first got the QM? I would expect the QM burrs to need replacing more often than Rocky since they're smaller, I go 75 to 100# with Rocky to maintain really good grind quality and range.

[LeoZ]

What was the actual shot volume pulled? Shot looked right decent.

However, I agree should not require having grinder set to zero point to grind for a shot! Having to grind much finer setting than previous one indication of worn burrs but you haven't had the QM that long I wouldn't think. I know with Rocky one indication time for another burr replacement is needing to be down to +2 or even +1 for a ristretto pull compared to new Rocky burrs +5 to +7 for ristretto, +10 range standard shot. Has the required degree of fineness setting substantially changed since you first got the QM? I would expect the QM burrs to need replacing more often than Rocky since they're smaller, I go 75 to 100# with Rocky to maintain really good grind quality and range.

shot volume was 1.5-1.75oz. as far as taste, the shot came out perfect.. caffe fresco black hand blend.. yum i think it also helped that its raining today, more humidity, so i was able to get away with not going too fine.

problem is i set the grinder even more fine before i recorded the above to slow the shot down. my tranq was the same as your rocky, +6-+7 for espresso. prob was each step gave me around 3-4 sec differences b/t pulls, i thought that was too long. the QM is a great little grinder, very clean, easy to make minute adjustments, but i dont want to destroy it in the process. im going to try to record a grinding with sound and talk to chriscoffee about it.


anyway, and to answer a question from Dan - the reason i started the thread was b/c i thought the HX machine, in theory, was causing the sporadic behavior b/t pulls. after all this, perhaps its not really the machine.. sheesh :/

thx for the help.. this has been a fun thread!

[randomperson]

This reminds me of my early days of trying to get by with a Capresso Infinity, of all things. I know the QM is a MUCH better grinder than that, but your symptoms are similar: sometimes a great shot, when everything aligns; and sometimes just plain awful. Simply, when the grinder can't grind fine enough, or consistently enough, you will have shots that are all over the place in quality.

Order a new grinder (Mazzer or Macap, any flavor). Worst case is that it makes no difference, and you send it back. Best case, it makes ALL the difference (which I bet it will!) and you sell your QM and recoup some of your expense. Then you can share with us your comparative experiences and we'll all benefit from your experimentation!

[HB]

1: distribution
2: first part of pour.
3: end of pour

Looked good to me, though the level was pretty high in the basket. Did you weigh the coffee? I ask because the tap tap shake shake thing can lead to dosages all over the map, usually on the too high side.

[luca]

Hi Leo,

If both of those videos were of the same shot, it looks to me like you had a 40 second extraction that kinda choked at the beginning and sped up at the end. This starting slow and speeding up thing is consistent with the giottos that I've seen here. It might be worthwhile keeping your dose as high as you can and grinding a little coarser, going for a shot that's on the faster side of the spectrum and cutting that short. That should give you a cleaner flavour. You might want to try that with a few different flush lengths, as well. If you are using the standard giotto basket, getting a bigger basket will help to alleviate the flow going from choke to gush. It's all in Jim's espresso guide!

Just my $0.02,

Luca

[LeoZ]

Hi Leo,

This starting slow and speeding up thing is consistent with the giottos that I've seen here.
Luca

Hey Luca,
Yes, except on ideal days, my machine always does this.. weird! i wonder why. dont know that its bad.. but, like you said, it sometimes forces me to cut a pull a bit short.

it was about 35 secs total. sorry the vid was hard to tell. i dont think the time was too bad for that shot. ill try to get another vid up soon and see what happens.

[HB]

If you are using the standard giotto basket, getting a bigger basket will help to alleviate the flow going from choke to gush.

Good catch! I had forgotten about the smaller stock Giotto basket:


Giotto stock basket (left) and ubiquitous 18 gram Faema-style basket (right)

It is a true 14 gram basket. The one on the right will give a larger margin of error.