If HX espresso machines are finicky, why are they so popular?

[Diablo]

Just wanted to say hi and thanks so much for providing a great site and so much information. I have learned a lot here.

I've been roasting for a few years now. Started out with poppers, and now working with an HR-1 from Diedrich. Working towards my own shop someday.

I have searched around looking for info on the different makes and models of Espresso machine. Like the the HR-1, I'm trying for something that may have a little carry over to a coffee shop. I know I have to know my trade first, so I'm looking for a great machine to learn how to make a real Espresso. Where I live, there is not one good place for espresso. I can get better out of my Moka Pot than any place here in town, not that that is Espresso, I'm just saying that the brew I get from my Moka Pot is superior to anything they want to call Espresso around here. No one here knows that Espresso's do not have to be made with burnt beans.

My main question is if HX machines get kind of finicky with over heating and whatnot, why are they so popular? I looked around on why that configuration is so popular but nothing really addresses that per say. Also, would overheating be about the only drawback to an HX machine? I guess I can see learning the purge technique to compensate not being a problem if that was the only little hitch to using the machine.

Thanks for any info.

[DaveC]

My main question is if HX machines get kind of finicky with over heating and whatnot, why are they so popular? I looked around on why that configuration is so popular but nothing really addresses that per say. Also, would overheating be about the only drawback to an HX machine? I guess I can see learning the purge technique to compensate not being a problem if that was the only little hitch to using the machine.

Thanks for any info.

They are quite simple, easy to maintain and work well as long as you do a cooling flush. The ability to steam milk draw hot water, or make coffee at any time and in any order, with no special preparation of the machine for the different "activities" also gives them a huge convenience over single boiler non-HX machines.

[cannonfodder]

$$$$$$ to put it simply. A multi group HX machine will be much less than the same number of groups in a double boiler. As a point of reference, an Elektra sixty series A3 single group commercial HX machine will hit you for around $2700, a LaMarzocco Linea single group AV will hit your wallet for $7000.

The HX vs double boiler debate has been beaten to death, a search will reveal hours of reading. But to make it short and sweet, the HX machines are much less expensive, the barista must learn the flushing routine but it is relatively simple and you can adjust the temperature on the fly based on the flush. Double boilers are much easier to use, no flushing, the Barista simply has to learn distribution and tamping. They are micro tunable for a particular blend, provided you do not change blends every week which would require changing the PID controller for the new temperature. You can set the steam boiler for rocket pressure so it only takes a few seconds to froth a gallon of milk.

In my opinion, those are the major considerations between the two.

[HB]

My main question is if HX machines get kind of finicky with over heating and whatnot, why are they so popular?

Advantages: Cost. Less parts to fail. Guaranteed fresh water. A skilled barista can manipulate the brew temperature on the fly. Disadvantages: More involved brew temperature management. Wasted water.

The majority of espresso machines in Italy are HXs. With few exceptions, the popularity of double boilers in US cafes regrettably isn't about better espresso, it's about steaming capacity for making "big gulp" lattes.

[Diablo]

Thanks so much. Things came together a bit better there. It's a little hard to get straight answers sometimes. I'll do more searching on double boilers. I read on those and to me, they seemed better. It seems that from what I read it was for that same view of many Lattes and that's why the DB's stuck in my head as the better of the two. I knew that the HX's had issues with temps when frothing and pulling shots back to back to back. At some point then, it would seem that if you are pulling several shots of espresso, and frothing milk, and pulling shots that water capacity may be a factor at some point?

But really, I am after quality, first and foremost. That's why I roast.

It seems though, from what you suggest, that since the HX's temps can be adjusted on the fly so easily that this allows very high end quality control of the shot. As a rule for me, when something has some kind of variable quality, like keeping the same temp, it is less then the best. I can see though that in this case it lends itself to flexibility instead.

I think even when I get shop, I'll want the HX. I thought that going with a DB would be ideal for lack of having to worry about water temps when frothing and so on. The extra attention though, I think that's good and shows how oriented to quality a shop is. When I see button pushing on the other side, I know there is that much less heart going into the drink. That plus the fact whoever is having the drink will always know it's better at my shop, even if they never know why.

[HB]

You can manipulate an HX machine's brew temperatures with practice and Eric's E61 TC adapter has made it a lazy no-brainer for me. But double boilers are easier still, no argument there. Keep in mind that double boilers in a home environment aren't assuredly more powerful steamers than HXs (e.g., the Expobar Brewtus is no better steaming than a comparatively classed HX), but in a commercial environment, they have a capacity advantage. If I owned a cafe, I would get a double boiler to eliminate one variable and keep those mega latte lovers happy. I don't have a line going out the door at home so the extra seconds HXs require doesn't bother me.

[Diablo]

That was going to be one of my next questions, was if it was typical or atypical for there to be a temp gauge on an HX. Thanks for that, since dialing in a good working temp is such a big deal, I was already planning on mounting one if they typically do not have temp gauges. Will read up on that.

Will have to read up more on the DB's. I like the idea of having different Espresso roasts available. That being the case, it may be best to have both machines. One for a typical house roast perhaps. At least one that would stay in a somewhat consistent ideal range of brew temp. Then use the HX as my baby to pull the finicky shots

[jesawdy]

I think some very advanced (read EXPENSIVE) machines allow for different grouphead temperatures at different groups on a multigroup machine. I think Nuova Simonelli and perhaps some others. I'm not sure if this is all done with flow restrictors or electronic controls or mixing valves or some combination thereof. Some things I have read of late seem to inidcate we will see more commercial machine that can do this in the future.

For your current learning purposes, I would lean towards a commercial HX if you hope to play with brew temps AND have something to use in a commercial setting later, and if you can accomadate it now, a mulitgroup machine. That said, if I was going to open a shop, I'd probably have a set house blend and a DB La Marzocco.

Also, please note that Eric's thermocouple adaptor is only plug and play for E61-based machines. You may be required to do some legwork to do something like that on a different machine, or use a Scace device to measure the temp under certain conditions.

[cannonfodder]

Personally, if I were opening my own Cafe, I would go with a double boiler, probably a LM FB80 4 group. The 4 group LM's have a single steam boiler but two brew boilers, one per two groups. You could adjust two groups for one blend and the other two for a different blend.

While I may be able to hit my target temp on a HX machine, my part time staff may not be as efficient. It removes one of the major variables behind good espresso, you get the same temperature every time. In my home, I am perfectly happy with my HX machine.

[Diablo]

That's something I had been thinking as well, no one will put love into the espresso like me, or least if it's not that important to the person pulling the shot it's hard for them to put the same kind of heart into getting to know the machine. Can always just keep looking for that perfect employee, yeah right. That's a great option to have two boilers and two groups. That's totally the kind of info I'm after.

Note duly noted. Thanks, I read that post and I think I may jump on the A3 bandwagon and make the insulation and thermo couple mods. Or get the thermofilter.

One of my only reserves is being locked into a temp. Which is why the HX has appeal to me for the ease of temp mod-ing. No temp surfing with DB's? I feel like the classic waffler. Back and forth. This is part of why I think I want both an HX and a DB in the shop. This means I'm not locked in. It means I can put heart into my HX, and set up the DB for the stuff I'm setting up with the HX.

Part of the reason I ended up with the HR-1 was being able to put it in the shop, and if/when I outgrow it, then I can use it to profile roasts without having to fire up a bigger roaster and/or waste beans. And all this time I'm building good experience points on it, roasting, and beans. Next stop, espresso domination.

[Diablo]

They are micro tunable for a particular blend, provided you do not change blends every week which would require changing the PID controller for the new temperature.

Is that change a big process? Hours/Days? Or maybe half hour to an hour kind of thing?

Retract the temp surfing question.

[cannonfodder]

That would depend on the size of the boilers and machine. It would take moments to make the change (you are just pushing an up or down and set) but the machine cold take an hour or two to adjust and stabilize depending on how large the adjustment and how big the machine. On a single group, I would not think it would take very long, maybe half hour?

[PaulTheRoaster]

Last week somehow I ended up repairing a new commerical Gaggia machine used in a small coffee shop here.
This is another interesting HX machine whose group does not overheat. It has a small heating element (and I think a thermocouple) in each grouphead. No thermosyphon loop. Maybe this sort of thing will trickle down to prosumer machines in a few years.

[Diablo]

Thanks CF. That makes me less weary, I'd like to be able to make a change and know it won't take so long. Sometimes things change and you have to change a long with due to circumstances out of your control.

Great writeup on the A3 btw, much appreciated Dan.

Thanks for the info Paul. I'll look into that.