I've got those spouted portafilter blues

[Beezer]

Most people seem to have trouble when they first start using a bottomless portafilter, since a naked PF can ruthlessly expose flaws in distribution, tamping, and dosing. I, on the other hand, am having the reverse problem. My naked pours look and taste quite good, at least to my admittedly unsophisticated palate. However, whenever I try to use a spouted PF, whether double or single spout, I always seem to get early blonding, and pale, thin crema. The shots also seem to taste a bit thin and sour. I'm using the same beans, same grind, same basket, same dose and distribution, and the same tamping technique. But the resulting shot seems to start out nice, but quickly goes blond and comes out with weak and thin crema.

So what's the problem? Why are my spouted shots predictably thinner and less satisfying than my naked pours? The only thing I can think of is that my tamping with the spouted PF isn't perfectly level because the spouts make it tough to get the PF flat. I even got a La Marzocco double PF, thinking the angled handle would allow for more level tamping. It does seem easier to use, but the result is still the same: thin, sour shots. What gives?

I've been using fresh beans from Coffee Klatch, currently Belle Espresso about a week past roast, so I don't think the beans are to blame. Grinder is a Macap M4 doser, and the machine is a Quickmill Anita set to 1.1 bar boiler pressure and 9 bar brew pressure. I let the machine warm up at least 30 minutes, and usually closer to 45. I'm using Eric's thermometer adapter and flushing to 200 degrees, then waiting 20-25 seconds and pulling my shot. I might try flushing a bit less, since the sourness and thin crema might be a sign of too cool temperatures. Still, if that's the problem, you'd think it would affect the naked shots too, but it doesn't seem to do so.

I'll try to post pictures later, or maybe even video, so you can compare my naked to clothed shots and see for yourself. I'd greatly appreciate any advice or tips.

[HB]

Strange. As you suggest, an unwelcome change in technique is the only explanation that comes to mind. Try removing the basket retainer clip and preparing the basket outside the portafilter to eliminate the with/without spouts consideration.

[matthyx]

Maybe your portafilter is not hot enough, or it's not clean... I had similar problems with my old Faema portafilter which I've decided to cut making a naked one.

Hope this helps.

[Mark08859]

Strange. As you suggest, an unwelcome change in technique is the only explanation that comes to mind. Try removing the basket retainer clip and preparing the basket outside the portafilter to eliminate the with/without spouts consideration.

I do this and it has made a difference. Assuring a pre-heated PF also helps.

[Beezer]

Thanks for the suggestions. I do leave the portafilter in the grouphead until I'm ready to start grinding, so it's pretty warm. Maybe it's losing enough heat while I grind and tamp to make a difference. I'll try removing the basket and leaving the PF locked in to see if that helps.

I also tried flushing less this morning, down to 203 instead of 200. It did seem like the taste and crema improved a bit, though the crema still seems a bit thin and weak to me. Perhaps the PF is a bit cool and its driving the temperature of the espresso down a bit as it runs through the spouts.

[CyclingCraig]

Hey Beezer;

I have the SAME set up as you Anita and MACAP M4, and I was just going to post a question VERY similar, basically asking if the bottomless PF is a crutch?

My bottomless pours are really nice, but like you, once I switch to the spouted PF's things go bad? I use the 2 spout when making 2 Lattes at the same time when friends are over(My personal lattes are doubles ).

It could be mental, like I can't see when the pour starts to go blond and lose that control and I *think* it doesn't taste as good? But It does seem like the espresso isn't as rich and crema isn't as dark and creamy?

So you are not alone!

I was going to start to force myself to use the spouted PF's to get better at judging the shot WITHOUT seeing the bottom of the basket.

[Grant]

Are you using the same basket (I mean the EXACT same basket) in both PF's?

Like mentioned, unless a different basket is in play, you must be distributing/tamping differently with the spouted PF than with the bottomless.

Grant

[Beezer]

I'm using the exact same basket in both types of PF: a LM style ridgeless double. Dosing about 18 grams, using Weiss Distribution, and distributing with a sort of modified Stockfleth's move. I've been trying to keep the tamp level and even, not tapping the PF or disturbing the puck before pulling the shot. The shot looks pretty good on the naked PF, so I don't think I'm doing anything that would cause massive channeling. But when I use the spouted PF, the shot looks thin and turns blond quickly.

Craig, I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one who's having this problem. Misery loves company.

I think I'm going to try taking the basket out and leaving the PF in the group while pulling the cooling flush. That should keep the PF nice and hot, which may help preserve the shot. I'll post some results later in the day.

Thanks again for the help, everyone.

[Sedi]

Watching the pour from my single spout I notice that when the flow of coffee/crema moves a little, or is too wide and is blocking the hole through which it pours in the spout, then the stream of crema swells from the air trapped inside of the pf because of the blocking, making large, blond, air bubbles in the flow which ruins the crema. At the same preparation method, when the flow doesn"t block the pouring hole in the spout, I get a nice pour with good crema and no early blonding. If you don't think this is just a lame excuse for lousy pours, (maybe it is ), try removing the spout and watch how it pours through the larger hole in your pf, maybe it will pour better.

[Merlino]

I have the same thing with my Silvia. Loving the naked pf pours, but when I go spouted my pours definitely change. Less crema and earlier blonding. I don't know why it is, but I've banished the naked pf to the cupboard in order to work on my technique with the spouted pf

[matthyx]

This week I have tried different shots with my usual routine: 2 hours pre-heating, portafilter locked-in the group head, filter out of the portafilter (no retention spring), flush, grind, dose, tamp, insert filter, lock portafilter, brew. One time with the bottomless portafilter and the other with the sprouted one.

Interestingly, all my "naked" shots had darker crema and tasted as if the brew temperature was a little bit too high. On the other hand, "spouted" shots were more or less spot on temperature wise, as far as I can tell.

I am using a Faema family combo with Faema portafilters - naked one is home made. I don't have any other way to measure the brew temperature than tasting shots, but my personal conclusion is that the spouted portafilter might dissipate more heat than the bottomless one.

[spanner]

Just a thought but do the baskets sit in the respective portafilters at the same level? I've got an aftermarket naked for my Spaziale and using an identical basket and tamping to the same level in the basket, the naked one seems to allow more headroom (in practice the pack in the spouted is more likely to have a greater gouge from contact with the shower screen bolt). I know this seems counter-intuitive given that the end point is governed by the contact between the gasket and the basket (rather than how far around the portafilter has been tightened) but I've fiddled around it seems to be a consistent phenomena. Possible cause for differences?

Cheers

[Beezer]

Well, I removed the spring from my double spouted PF and left the PF in the group while flushing and grinding. I ground and tamped with the basket out of the PF, then dropped the basket into the PF just before pulling the shot. It does seem to make a difference. The crema is darker as the shot flows, and doesn't seem to blond as early as before. The crema also seems visually more appealing in the cup, with a darker color and more tiger flecking. The flavor is better, though now it might almost be a bit bitter, as if the extra heat has pushed the espresso out of the sweet spot. I think I need to flush a bit more to compensate.

So it seems to me that the problem is that the bottom of the PF and the spouts were acting as a heat sink, dropping the temperature of the espresso several degrees as the espresso flows out of the spouts. By leaving the PF in the group head and flushing with the PF in place, the espresso is kept much hotter and the result is richer, darker crema. The naked PF doesn't have this problem since there is no direct contact between the espresso and the metal parts of the PF.

Amazing. I never would have expected that just using a PF that's slightly too cool would produce such noticeable results. Thanks again everyone.

[matthyx]

Yesss, I knew this was the cause... now I understand how important is the routine

Maybe I need to apply this phenomenon on my own related problem: with the bottomless portafilter my espresso is regularly too hot

Maybe one day we could have water circulation or even saturated portafilter

[Beezer]

Perhaps I claimed victory too soon. Now that I've been leaving the PF locked into the group and flushing through the PF while grinding, I've noticed my shots are much more bitter and harsh. The crema starts out very dark, then goes lighter in the later portion of the shot. These are classic symptoms of overextraction or excessive brew temp, right? So I tried flushing more, all the way down to 198 on the thermometer, then pulling my shot after waiting 25 seconds. Still very bitter. Drinkable as a cappuccino, but not as a straight shot. Strange.

So now I'm wondering if the PF is actually too hot, perhaps because the cooling flush is driving the heat of the PF way up. I may try pulling the flush with the PF locked in, then removing the PF to grind and tamp. Maybe that will get the temperature of the PF under control.

[Worldman]

Man! More stuff to obsess over! You gotta' love this hobby.

I switched to nekkid some months (or years) ago and never looked back. Reading this makes me want to put the spout back on and see what happens.

Len

[erics]

Mr. B - Try this:

Remove all the springs from your PF's and keep the one PF you want to use in the machine.

Prepare the basket as per your normal procedure, tamping it in a spare PF.

Flush to 198, remove PF, shake and wipe dry.

Insert basket, load PF, pull shot.

If the time between stopping the flush and initiating the shot can be ~10 seconds, you should be happy (or not). I would vary the "flush to" temp by 0.5 degrees for experimentation purposes.

There should be a noticeable difference in grouphead temperatures between the three conditions of no PF inserted, bottomless PF inserted, spouted PF inserted. The rationale being that you are creating additional surfaces for heat transfer to take place (or not). Just for fun, insert a room temp PF into a hot group and watch the temps plummet.

[Beezer]

Thanks for the tips, Eric.

I just pulled a shot this afternoon using the single spout PF and took video of it. I'll post the video after YouTube finishes uploading it.

I flushed to 200 degrees with the filter out of the PF, and the PF locked into the group. Ground and tamped the shot with the filter basket out of the PF. Waited a couple of minutes, then flushed again with the PF out of the group. Locked back in, waited 20-25 seconds, then pulled the shot. The result seemed pretty good. Maybe a bit early on the blonding, but still pretty tasty.

Here's a still shot of the shot. Video to come later.



While the results seem good, I think Eric's routine will be quicker and simpler for me to do, so I'll try that next.

[erics]

Here is another thread that has some shot pulling methodologies - http://www.home-barista.com/forum...adapter-t5125.html

In addition, what I have noticed when using the single spout PF is that when the pour starts going a litle "squiggly" on you is the time to stop. I BELIEVE you need a very little bit of this "squigliness" to balance out the shot but that one is probably (certainly) open to discussion. "Blonding" is kinda subjective but this other behavior is quite noticeable.

[Beezer]

Eric, I'm not quite sure what you mean by "squiggly." You mean when the pours starts to get thin and light, or something else? I suppose I'm not up to speed on all the technical jargon.

Here's that video I made. Unfortunately, it's kind of dark, so it's hard to see what's happening with the pour. I'll try it again with better light, but this might give you some useful information.

[youtube]http://youtube.com/watch?v=ate0LPVoNLY[/youtube]

BTW, I pulled some shots yesterday and this morning using Eric's technique of taking the basket out, flushing to 198 with the PF in place, then replacing the basket and pulling the shot after 10 seconds or so. The results were very nice. The crema starts nice and dark, and gradually lightens over the course of the shot. The shot seemed much smoother, and the mouthfeel is thicker. So I think that's the technique I'll keep for the future, at least with spouted PF's.