fishairflow wrote:Looked at chris's coffee - and can't help but wonder are these machines really worth the money? [...] I have tried Jura S9, Kitchenaid Proline espresso , and La Pavoni Europiccola. I was using regular beans which yielded ridiculous results. Ended up buying Baratzaa Virtuoso grinder and with that I get a nice crema but still the taste leaves a lot to be desired for.
If you bought all that kit and decided it is not for you, you already spent considerable money.
The question is, do you want to continue doing so by making small incremental steps?
fishairflow wrote:All I want is that thick foamy espresso from a nice long lasting machine with a good warranty.
Which is probably what everybody in here wants and especially the heavenly espresso shot one wants all the time is why all this machine talk is going on. Pride of ownership may play a role here and there, but a very small one. It's all about the coffee.
fishairflow wrote:I mean that there has to be a point beyond which I will not be getting any additional benefits for the money spent. I mean I don't mind spending 1000 or 1500 $ on a machine but is a 3000 $ machine really that much better than 1500 $ ?
It starts with the grinder. Read the Titan Grinder project on HB where a few super professional grinders are tested and you will see there is a taste impact of different grinder designs/implementations.
The one you have now (BV) will likely disappoint with a better espresso machine.
Anyhow, start your budget with the grinder. If I had to start over again, I would look really seriously at the La Cimbali Max Hybrid Espresso Grinder (a Chris Coffee special). At the top of my list today would be the Versalab grinder, however a recent discovery in these fora reveals some aging (30 mins?) of the coffee after grinding actually improves taste - so now I am not so sure anymore about my objections against a doser. Still, a design that has no sweeps or cleaning ritual involved I would consider superior.
As to the espresso machine, the La Pavoni Europiccola can make one or two good espressi in my opinion and then needs to be shut down for the next round. Nearly all machines involve some ritual, so read machine -dedicated threads to discover the best ritual for it.
Since you do not mention milk steaming, this makes selections easier. The more expensive machines may have two boilers where about half of the machine is dedicated to steaming.
Remember:
One boiler (single) with no HX must be heated up before you can steam and cooled down to espresso temp before you can brew coffee again - to me that is too much hassle and robs the espresso of some of its qualities, even when it goes into the milk.
One boiler with heat exchanger (HX) means you have a steam boiler at steam temperature/pressure and the (fresh) brew water runs through a tube in the steam boiler. These machines regulate temperature not with a thermostat but a pressurestat. During idle, as the group is on a loop with the HX and no fresh water comes in, both group and water in HX will get hotter than desired and a flush is needed to get the overheated water out of the loop/HX and cool the group a little. Many professional machines even need this treatment, it involves some learning, but can be managed.
Two boilers (double) combine the brew boiler from the single with (parallel) a steam boiler like in the HX, but without the HX now.
As to temperature regulation there is an undercurrent in these fora to want to go to PID. The larger professional machines can have an 11 liter (approaching 3 US gallons) boiler and it may make less sense because of the temperature-inertia of that mass, although PID's are added sometimes to make adjustments easier and relative to the price of a large commercial machine, why wouldn't you?
As to steam boiler (including HX boiler) pressure regulation, much talk is about the professional, large, heavy, Sirai that can switch huge Amp loads, and is considered desirable by some. Alternatively much smaller pressurestats are used in cheaper machines with smaller heating elements. The best may actually be a smaller pressurestat that switches the heater with an intermediate (solid state) relay.
As to groups, many machines have the famous Faema E/61 model. There are small differences between brands nowadays, but that seems minor to me.
Many espresso buffs are actually satisfied with a PID'ed Rancilio Silvia.
In your case I'd look at the Quick Mill Alexia (single boiler with PID) - another Chris Coffee special.
If you need to do a lot of milk occasionally (parties, functions), I would add a dedicated milk steamer to it (Quick Mill do one).
If you decide to spend more money, look at e.g. La Spaziale Vivaldi II, Elektra Sixties A3, or Nuova Simonelli Appia.
Somewhere in the bottom of that price range there are a Brewtus dual boiler or VBM (Vibiemme) dual boiler where the former is a bit weaker on the specs of the parts and the latter really has a lot of serious parts inside, probably the best in craftsmanship. Chris Coffee may be working with Quick Mill on a dual boiler model, but I do not know the status.
Personally I have a Quick Mill Andreja Premium which has the best looks of the prosumer machines, IMO (include Wife Acceptance Factor - WAF). I replaced the factory portafilter with one from La Marzocco (requires group gasket replacement - no big deal), yet went back to the factory basket. I replaced the CEME pressurestat with a Jaeger one because I was opening the machine at three years of age to replace a valve and combine this preventively. Today, I actually doubt the Jaeger is better, coffee-wise.
The best machines today are probably La Marzocco GS/3 and Synesso, or other commercial machines with one group for that matter.
The LM is interesting because it can (also) operate from an integrated water tank.
A Synesso you would have to "plumb in" and its pump/motor need to be placed outside the machine (e.g. under the sink).
A machine I find very interesting in architecture is the Dalla Corte where group and brew boiler are integrated and steam section is separated to the point it can be totally switched off. The aesthetics are not my cup of tea though.
So "best" in "best machine", mind you, is a function of the machine's architecture or design and subsequently
the coffee that it produces.
Basic parts in these expensive machines, like a vacuum breaker valve, safety valve, water level brain box, relays or even faucets can be exactly the same as in cheaper prosumer machines. Yet, regarding pressurestats, a VBM with a Sirai IMO is not superior to a Quick Mill that has a solid state relay (SSR) to switch the heater (many Amps) and uses a smaller cheaper CEME pressurestat to switch the SSR (almost no Amps) - a solution also found on La Marzocco.
The design and implementation and related price determine inter-shot stability, intra-shot stability, first-shot stability or repeatability, ability to do back-to-back series, ability to do back-to-back series of milk drinks, amount and complexity of ritual required and ease of making minute adjustments to brew/machine settings.
And then there is a "Lever Machine World Domination Plan" forum on HB that might tell you all this machine talk is a load of pump Bachelor Science (B.S.) where a real LWMDP master would chose some Elektra Micro Casa A Leva or refurbished Olympia Cremina.
I hope you hate espresso machine shopping a bit less, by now. Probably not very much.
Regards
Peter
