I'm wandering in the espresso wilderness.

[Gregg K]

Well here's what has happened. I bought a La Pavoni Pro and a Mazzer Mini about three years ago. I ended up making lattes over these years because I couldn't tolerate the bitter espresso straight. Finally about two weeks ago I bought a Reneka Techno, and was all excited to prepare for graduating to the next level. I was certain I could make straight espressos that were drinkable. Well I've blown through about ten pounds of good coffee with not a single shot that was anything from penicillin, to burnt rubber. At least that's what MY taste buds say. For all I know, this is what espresso tastes like.

But I'm persistent. I refuse to give up. Especially after reading posts. And I've read posts. Enough posts that I should be not having to post this one.

I've got the machine set up at 200 degrees. And without measuring, I just have to trust that it's accurate. It is brand new. And Boyd tested everything before delivery. I've mostly been using 14 grams in the double basket. I am using the silly plastic tamper, but after thousands of tamps, I think I can safely say I know how to tamp, even with this toy. And without a bottomless filter, I will never know what's really going on with the pour. I've used half a dozen different bean roasts. And the roaster is in town, so these are fresh roasts. Maybe not the best, nor proper, but not old by any means. I've double checked the pressure to be at a little under 10 bar.

What else is there? Doesn't that kind of cover the bases of making espresso?

I've started varying the grind. The dose. The tamp. The temp. And nothing.

The best thing that has happened yet was a pour of I think Yemen that was sour. SOUR! It was like hitting gold. At least it wasn't burnt rubber.

So what the heck am I doing wrong? Where should I start? I see threads on how to logically approach this. But they're hard for me to even follow. I can't recognize when there is channeling, even with the naked portafilter.

I just want an espresso without milk that's drinkable. Is it the beans?

If it's beans, then which are the benchmark for espresso?

I really didn't think this was going to turn into a scientific reinvention of the discovery of espresso. I thought a good grinder, a good machine, and a fair amount of research and experience would lead to good espresso. Maybe I just hate espresso. But I've read those posts too, and it sounds like good espresso is actually good.

Is the bandwidth of good espresso so thin that everyone is drinking mostly bitter tincture, and rarely getting good results?

I know better than to post something like this. But after all of my efforts I don't know what else to do.

[vanboom]

What beans are you using? I think the varieties of beans you choose matter a lot. Beans from different origins will taste differently, and many shops I have dealt with can't tell me what beans are in their espresso blend. Find a good local coffee roaster who can tell you what is in their espresso blend.

This sounds crazy, but you might try buying some Starbucks espresso beans along with an espresso to drink. Drink their espresso, then make some at home with their beans and you should get something similar if your equipment is working properly. I ran this test about a year ago and it helped me dial in the temperature surf on my Silvia.

good news: the bandwidth is tight, but not out of reach.

good luck
don

p.s. SOUR means your brew temp is too low. You would also notice light colored crema with a sour pour.

[another_jim]

Have you tried top rate commercial espresso, say at Ritual in SF or Stumptown in Portland?

[Gregg K]

Hey, thanks for wading through my lengthy and anxiety ridden post!

Well, as it ends up, my neighbor is the local roaster. And we're engaged in a rather serious legal battle right now. And unexpectedly he called me tonight. And it was almost comical that despite our fight we engaged in espresso discussion mid talk. I think espresso is actually going to hold our relations together. I think it's marvelous. I bought a ranch where an acre of redwoods were retained by the previous owner, and upon his logging it, I as the property owner was named in the suit. But I digress.

I had a feeling the beans might be the problem. I don't know anything about the beans I'm using except the description mentioned dark Italian espresso and Southern Italian. The other beans I've been using are also blends, as they have names that refer to the different towns around here. But they had that dark and oily appearance, so I thought they might show some colorful taste. Nope.

Getting sour results was surprising considering I consistently got bitter with the other beans. Obviously those beans wanted higher temperature. I turned the temp up a couple of degrees and still got very strong sour taste. A revealing discovery for me.

I think there are other issues. My Mazzer blades look perfect, but the difference between a five second pour, and nearly choking the pour is only one number on the adjuster collar. I may have grinder issues that aren't obvious. But it may also be distributing problems on my part.

I will not give up!

[peacecup]

GET A GOOD, FRESH, COMMERCIALLY ROASTED (not local, redwood-logging) ESPRESSO BLEND. BLENDING AND ROASTING ESPRESSO IS AN ART, SO UNLESS YOUR NEIGHBOR IS PICASSO YOU NEED A BETTER START.

[Alan Frew]

Hey, thanks for wading through my lengthy and anxiety ridden post!

Well, as it ends up, my neighbor is the local roaster. And we're engaged in a rather serious legal battle right now. And unexpectedly he called me tonight. And it was almost comical that despite our fight we engaged in espresso discussion mid talk. I think espresso is actually going to hold our relations together. I think it's marvelous. I bought a ranch where an acre of redwoods were retained by the previous owner, and upon his logging it, I as the property owner was named in the suit. But I digress.

I had a feeling the beans might be the problem. I don't know anything about the beans I'm using except the description mentioned dark Italian espresso and Southern Italian. The other beans I've been using are also blends, as they have names that refer to the different towns around here. But they had that dark and oily appearance, so I thought they might show some colorful taste. Nope.

Getting sour results was surprising considering I consistently got bitter with the other beans. Obviously those beans wanted higher temperature. I turned the temp up a couple of degrees and still got very strong sour taste. A revealing discovery for me.

I think there are other issues. My Mazzer blades look perfect, but the difference between a five second pour, and nearly choking the pour is only one number on the adjuster collar. I may have grinder issues that aren't obvious. But it may also be distributing problems on my part.

I will not give up!

"dark Italian espresso and Southern Italian." = robusta = burnt rubber, penicillin etc. Your machinery, temperature etc. is irrelevant if your coffee is sh** to start with. Go out and spend some money on a decent blend of freshly roasted coffee specifically designed for espresso and you'll be blown away by the results. It will also cure your temperature and grind adjustment problems.

Alan

[Gregg K]

Oh this is good news. Thanks so much for the replies.

I just remembered something my roaster neighbor mentioned during our conversation. I had said I just bought a machine, and was working at improving my espresso shots. His response was that making espresso was all about a 20 second shot time. I mentioned tamping and dosing, to which he replied he doesn't tamp. Now I know some people don't tamp. But this guy is a roaster. I came away with the sense that he doesn't hold espresso as a high priority.

Alright, I'm off to begin my search for beans.

[sweaner]

Maybe you just don't like espresso. Many who love coffee do not. I actually like to add a small amount of cream to mine. I think it brings out the flavors and cuts some bitterness. Likely this is because my espressos have yet to become really good.

[Gregg K]

I'm definitely a latte type. I never could tolerate black coffee.

However, as my espresso technique improved, using the La Pavoni lever, the amount of milk declined on a linear progression.

Also, therein lies the illusive goal. I may not be a barista, but my quest for a better cup has been a very long journey. I've only been making espresso for three years, but my insane evolution of contraptions to create better drip coffee was testament to my tenacity.

I love milk in my coffee. But now that I know I have what it takes to make that perfect shot, I have at least started to taste my pours before the milk is added. Sooner or later there will be a day when a shot is poured that won't even need the milk to mask the distasteful flavors. Then I will know I have arrived. And then milk will no longer be a mask, but an addition.

[Marshall]

"dark Italian espresso and Southern Italian." = robusta = burnt rubber, penicillin etc. Your machinery, temperature etc. is irrelevant if your coffee is sh** to start with. Go out and spend some money on a decent blend of freshly roasted coffee specifically designed for espresso and you'll be blown away by the results. It will also cure your temperature and grind adjustment problems.

Maybe not, Alan. The best-known roaster in the OP's town (if it's the same roaster) is a respected figure in the specialty coffee world, a founder of SCAA and a big supporter of sustainable agriculture. His company offers a number of different espresso blends. For some roasters "Southern Italian Style" mainly means "pretty dark." There could be a lot of reasons why the OP isn't getting a decent shot.

[Marshall]

Gregg,

There are at least two roasters in your immediate area with national reputations: Ecco Caffe in Santa Rosa and Thanksgiving Coffee in Mendocino. Unfortunately, I do not believe either of them has a coffee shop. Let me suggest you call them up, discuss your predicament and ask for suggestions. You might even try to wangle a visit to watch them pull shots in their blending labs. Good luck, and, yes, you will probably start drinking less milk if your espresso improves.

[mule]

I am sooo lucky to have this mendocino guy stating the same feelings I have recently had... I especially like where he said that he feels he shouldnt have to write this post with all the times he has logged on to home-barista, et al. I have recently purchased a QM Alexia that is PID'd. After doing everything that this guy has been doing, I still have been experiencing the joy of essentially bitter swill. Tamp, less tamp, more tamp, no tamp, fresh beans, 1, 2, 3 and more week old beans, mazzer adjustments out the ying yang, single, double and more shots, over and underdosing, blah, blah, blah.
BUT wait. A recent moment changed the burnt tires to something closer to drinkable. Irregardless of all of the above million variables I decided to change my PID temp from a range that everyone else "seems" to be using to 5-6 degrees lower. Now burnt has become a little drinkable even. I am in Florida and maybe because ambient temperature is warmer?? Also, I am not very confident that the intermachine temperature variability is very tight. To get 198 at grouphead might be +20 for machine a and +30 for machine b in the same geographic location.
I dont think its the beans. I believe this guy (and myself) are talking swill not just a little bitter. I just think that when you have adjusted every variable out there and you still have bitter coffee then it must be the temp, (responses please). I mean, it seems that there is always an adjustment of one variable (lets say b) for problems with another variable (a), right? Except temperature.
I dont quite know how extreme to be here but, it seems that the temp surfing has been all about HX machines, but isnt there a temp surfing issue with PID'd machines too? (responses here too!) Short shrift has been given to the issue facing noob pid'ers with this number that might be 20 to 30 degrees higher than at grouphead. Thats a big issue that noobies like me need to be able to address without the Scace thing-a-majig. I just havent felt that the PID temp has been given enuff airtime. If a particular coffee bean likes 198 and you get this machine that says 226, how should you, ( and at what point in your search should you ) adjust that temp? I think it could be easily 205 and making burnt tires, but here I am adjusting the grind or buying fresher beans, or watching the little coffee squirty thing spit into my eye from the naked pf while watching for channeling,

So glad also for everyone who is trying to help each other. I hope I have not made anyone totally annoyed by this post. Keep up the good work.

PS: this guy said he would change the Mazzer Mini by whole numbers on the ring. Correct me if I am wrong but those numbers are hugely too big of adjustments for espresso people right? The adjustment should be a couple of ribs not numbers. ( response here is good too )

carry on and thanks for letting us surf with you in your waves...

[BobS]

It's not about the machine.

It's first about the coffeee - get something that's recognized to start with
And second - it's the grinder. In Mazzer land it starts with the Super Jolly and goes up.

The mini just isn't consistant enough to do the coffee justice. While it's possible to get
a decent shot from the mini, it takes a lot of work - sometimes years.

Start with something like Ecco Cafe's Northern Italian or Klatch's Belle, then expand from
there. But the mini is going to make it diffcult to get the best out of the coffee.

Bob

[DavidMLewis]

I agree with others. First, go to one of the local roasters, describe your situation, and ask them to pull a shot on their equipment for you, so that you know what that coffee is supposed to taste like. It may very well wind up tasting different on the Techno, since different machines are often happy with slightly different extraction parameters, but it won't be a completely different taste. You may, if they seem accommodating, want to schlep the grinder in with you; that way you can see if the coffee tastes radically different when it goes through your grinder. While we're on the subject, when was the last time you cleaned the grinder thoroughly? You can get some pretty rasty tastes from that too. While I happen to use a decent tamper, lots of people with Technos like fine grinds and little or no tamping, so you should be able to get something at least drinkable. If you can get down to Santa Cruz, I'll pull you some shots on mine. Also, ask the roaster if they have a blend that's more forgiving of differing extraction parameters.

If everything else fails, I have a Scace set up for the Techno, but both because shipping would be a nightmare and because it's the least likely cause of the problem, I'd save it for last.

Best,
David

[Gregg K]

I was trying to keep things anonymous to protect the innocent. But it was indeed the owner of Thanksgiving Coffee whom I was talking with last night. That's why I was surprised to hear his abbreviated summation of the espresso process. Who knows how they operate at their business. I think they're pretty serious about things. Maybe he has a guy who does their test pours.

So Ecco it was. I grabbed some beans that have been posted here with glorious review.

This will be interesting, if for no one other than myself. Hopefully I'll be posting back with success. It's almost comical how serious I take my espresso. It's like being in school. No rest until the results are produced.

David, I appreciate the thought. I could probably cobble together something that would give a fair indication of actual temps. But I agree, it's probably not worth pursuing at this point. It's a brand new machine.

The one thing that did have me wondering about temperature was not being able to manipulate it enough to pour a sour shot. But maybe that is more dependent on the bean than temp. Because like I said above, one variety of bean was very sour at the same temp that another was bitter. Although the bitter could have been due to channeling, etc.

Now it's time to await the precious roasted goodies.


On edit- I was hoping not to hear about the Mini being a tad substandard. I have used a magnifying loupe, and noticed the grinds are not homogeneous by any means. So that will probably be on my upgrade list some day. As for cleaning, I pull it apart whenever I sense something odd going on. But the Mazzer cavities fill with grinds as soon as the first time it's used. I don't think cleaning is good for much unless it's really packed somehow.

[vanboom]

I agree the Mazzer Mini should not be the problem unless it is terribly out of whack. I think you need a reference bean/roast that you can measure your espresso against.

Another tale of bean woes: I roast my own using a GeneCafe which recently needed a repair so I was without it for 2 weeks. I bought some beans from a local reputable roaster...yuck, bitter and cardboard box stale tasting. So I bought some Black Cat from Intelligentsia...yuck, sour pours every time. So I sat it out and waited for my repair.

When I got the GeneCafe working again I roasted up a blend of 60% Brazil Yellow Icatu, 30% Ethiopian Harrar, 10% Kenya Peaberry and made some espresso. Aaahh, that's the stuff!!

Beans and roast makes a HUGE difference. I tend towards a slightly darker roast, about 45s-60s into 2nd crack. The Black Cat I received was pretty light and tasted sour to me. So back to my 1st statement - I think you need to sample beans and roasts from other roasters and try to find something to use as a reference.

good luck!

[Marshall]

On edit- I was hoping not to hear about the Mini being a tad substandard. I have used a magnifying loupe, and noticed the grinds are not homogeneous by any means. So that will probably be on my upgrade list some day. As for cleaning, I pull it apart whenever I sense something odd going on. But the Mazzer cavities fill with grinds as soon as the first time it's used. I don't think cleaning is good for much unless it's really packed somehow.

There is nothing "substandard" about the Mazzer Mini. For years it was considered the Holy Grail of home espresso grinders. If your problems are as serious as you describe them, it isn't the Mini's fault.

[Gregg K]

Good news on all accounts.

What a forum. I can stand lazily on the shoulders of espresso giants. And I really appreciate it.

Yes, I got the Mazzer Mini when we were all raving about it a few years back. Beans are not an engineering material, and no grinder can grind perfectly uniform granules.

In other news, I cracked open another bag o' beans, and it's far from undrinkable. I don't have a clue as to what the blend is.

It's important to not lose sight that this whole endeavor is about having fun. But it's funny to see how serious one can take the whole thing. I'm already worrying about the next phase. I see roasting in my future!

[DavidMLewis]

I'd add one more note on temperature with the Techno. Like most other commercial machines, it's not up to temp when the boiler light first goes out. I typically take mine out of ECO mode around a half-hour before I plan on using it. Even then, there used to be a tastable difference between then and two or three hours later; about 1° C, or one step. If you get to the point where that's a problem, what I did was to insulate the path from the boiler to the front of the brew head with 1/2" cork from McMaster-Carr.

I've also settled on the following warm-up ritual. Like many OCD rituals, I'm sure it contains elements that aren't necessary, but it works for me. I have the third shot button set for about four ounces of water. I hit it, and about fifteen or twenty seconds after it finishes I hit it again. When that finishes, I put a rubber backflush disk (obduratur in French, Ken) into the portafilter and lock it back in. Then I turn the pump on and off a few times (well, three exactly, since we're talking about OCD). Grind or measure the coffee while it's coming back up to temp, and when the light goes out I hit the button once more for a couple of seconds, and then unlock, and finally build and pull the shot. When I actually pull the shot, I run the water for three or four seconds to warm the screen back up, lock the shot in as soon as it's stopped dripping, and hit the button. All this takes more time to describe than to do, and has the purpose of getting the brew head up to the same temperature as the boiler, and pulling the shot at the same point in the machines admittedly narrow deadband.

While I'm now the proud (and relieved) owner of an M3, I used a grinder considerably worse than the Mini for a long time, and got some fine shots. At the level you're describing, that's not the problem.

Best,
David

[Gregg K]

You know, admitting is the first step. My name is David Lewis, and I'm an espresso addict. I'd have to read that a couple of times to really get your sequence of operation.

I think I read a post somewhere regarding insulating. I'll bet it was alt.coffee. Probably yours. I was happy to see the block of metal the brewhead is attached to on my machine is stainless. Not brass. The newer machines have some pretty nice little upgraded details. Like cast stainless pipe fittings instead of brass. I'm pretty doubtful that insulation is effective enough to justify. I can't argue since I don't know. With a brass plate, it may be worth it. But with stainless, it's perhaps not. And for the flow rate of water through that little nylon hose, it probably doesn't lose much heat either. And I partly say that because the temperature differential is not to ambient. It's to the temp of the inside of the unit, which is higher than ambient. In fact, probably pretty high. I'm guessing over 150 degrees F. But hey, I can't pull a shot yet, so I have not earned the right to blab like this.

I grabbed more beans today. Thanksgiving Coffee is actually an impressive company. They roast 53 different types of coffee. They just aren't in the stores. I'll try this one and see if it is an improvement.

http://store.thanksgivingcoffee.c...nfo?products_id=57