I'm overdosing. Who knew!?

[Dieter01]

I normally dose directly into the basket with enough grinds to leave a small heap. I then use my hand/finger to level. I have not considered this overdosing. If I was to tap the portafilter on its rest while grinding though, that would be overdosing. Or if I use WDT, I always get more grounds in then. How wrong I was... After all this reading I can't believe I missed such an elemental term!

No wonder I could never get the regular double basket to "work". Unless I only filled it 3/4 of the way it would touch the shower screen. With the 18g Synesso though I used the WDT, level and tamp. Good results, very happy. Who knew I was overdosing!


So the question... If you only fill a double basket with 14g, which is less than flush with the rim, how do you level?

[Ken Fox]

So the question... If you only fill a double basket with 14g, which is less than flush with the rim, how do you level?

Weigh what you grind on a cheap but accurate 0.1g scale, like this one:

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.1165

I dispense the grinds into a ramekin, with the scale "tare"d to the weight of the ramekin, but any small vessel including the Portafilter itself will do. I will use any quantity within 0.2g measured weight of my target dose (14g for me, so I'll use 13.8 to 14.2g). Any more or less and I'll either add or remove what is needed.

I spoon the grinds into the PF basket, which generally takes 3-4 teaspoonfuls, then knock the rest of the ground coffee into the basket from the ramekin. My only other basket preparation prior to making the shot is to twirl a tamper in the PF basket for 2 seconds. I then lock and load the PF in the machine and pull the shot. I don't make any particular effort to distribute or level, however with this dose it seems to happen more or less on its own with the technique I use.

If I am making 2 shots in the same session (i.e. one for me and one for someone else), I'll try to weigh out something approaching 28g, spoon 14 into the PF (using my superior mathematical calculation skills ), then finish what is needed from what is left for the 2nd shot. I would probably not grind for 3 shots in succession at one time, as I'd rather use grinds fresher than what I'd have left for the 3rd shot.

That's it.

ken

[ChrisC]

Hi Dieter,

I had a similar realization with my Silvia recently -- you can't really level with the top of the basket and expect not to touch the screen. I now use the scale Ken links to to weight the amount of beans I want (plus about 1 g that gets lost to a quick sacrificial grind in my Rocky to make sure all stale coffee is out of the delivery path), grind into my PF with a yogurt cup inserted and WDT, then with the cup still in, gently shake the PF side to side and then forward and back until it looks about level to me. I carefully remove the yogurt cup straight upwards, then do a gentle downwards tap of the PF on the counter, just to settle the grinds a little more. Then tamp. Seems to work well.

Chris

[DavidMLewis]

If you only fill a double basket with 14g, which is less than flush with the rim, how do you level?

Well, since we're tool-using animals over here at H-B, I took some 0.030" plastic shim stock and made a series of scrapers by clamping plates of various sizes upside down on it and cutting around the rim with a utility knife. I have various sized baskets for my Reneka Techno, and interestingly enough, putting 14 grams of most coffees into the basket Reneka calls an 18 gram one almost comes up to level with the top.

Best,
David

[CoffeeOwl]

I dose 15g into my pf basket and then WDT to level the grinds: 15g is below the basket rim, I only put the needle into between 1/3 to 1/2 of the basket depth. Then I level-tamp, tap, 30lbs tamp and go.

[AUSTINrob]

If the aspect of overdosing that is bothering you is the fact that the grinds touch the screen, than could you simply solve this issue by dosing your "normal" amount, leveling, and then tamping with a convex tamper??

I pose this question not as a suggestion, but truly a question as I too "overdose" most of the time and have a hunch that a convex tamper may afford me a little extra space...

[Psyd]

I had a similar realization with my Silvia recently -- you can't really level with the top of the basket and expect not to touch the screen.

Technically, the Silvia doesn't have as much to do with this as the basket that you're using. With the LM ridged 14 gram baskets that I'm using, I can level, tamp, and just get an impression of the screw-head in the tamp when I lock in.
It is very basket-dependent far more than machine-dependent. I keep wondering about convex tampers vs flat as it applies to convex groupheads vs flat. and there are a few convex-ish baskets out there and plenty of flat ones.

[ChrisC]

I use the LM ridged -- I'd go the extra mile and point out that it's probably also strongly related to grind -- finer grind packs down more, yes?

[HB]

So the question... If you only fill a double basket with 14g, which is less than flush with the rim, how do you level?

I use the Stockfleths Move for Dummies:

Instead of resting your finger lightly on the rim of the basket, press down firmly so the bottom flat of your finger rides below the basket's edge. The curve of your finger will scrape off grounds as you rotate the basket. It's fairly easy to dose to 16 grams with a standard Faema-style basket using this technique; with practice, you can dose to 15 grams or less (the dose in the video was 15.5 grams). For extreme downdosing of less than 14 grams, place your finger across the basket with the tip of your finger riding below the inner rim while rotating the basket, scraping off grounds to the desired level.

It's a lazy man's version of what David suggested above with his curved plastic scrapers. For more ideas, see Dosing less than level with the rim of the basket.

[Alchemist]

I also grind directly into my basket, although not always and it still works for me. In either case, I am pretty consistently getting 14 (13-15 g to be honest) of coffee into my 58 mm double basket. And this is with a slightly hollow mount over the edge and flat sweep. Not overdosing IMO.

Here's what comes to mind. What grinder are you using? I know the needle dissection method was developed to deal with clumping. My grinder (a giant trosser) leaves me with a very volcano like shaped mount of fluffy coffee grounds. No dense clump. Only a "half" filled basket after tamping, no touching the screen.

Might the grinder used be causing a denser pack?

I have to say, this is having the feel of swinging the other direction for obsession (the opposite of stuffing 21 g into a double basket with all these super techniques and getting a good pull). All these fancy ass techniques to get the right low dose, when what I came away with from Fox's discussion was it was the simplicity of what he observed that made it work. Dose, sweep, tamp, pull.

[HB]

Might the grinder used be causing a denser pack?

The grinder certainly can make a difference. From Mazzer Mini E or Cimbali Max Hybrid:

It depends on the coffee beans, grind setting, grinder, and of course the basket you're using. Just tried dosing on three grinders in a standard Faema style basket:

Mazzer Mini: 16.3 grams
Mazzer Mini Electronic: 18.0 grams
Le'Lit PL53: 13.9 grams

The Mini E has a grid on the exit chute to help meter out grounds in a more orderly fashion, but it also compresses the grounds, hence its higher weight. The PL53 has noticeably more fluffy grounds than the other two.

Three grinders dosed level into the same basket yielded a range of four grams...

All these fancy ass techniques to get the right low dose, when what I came away with from Fox's discussion was it was the simplicity of what he observed that made it work. Dose, sweep, tamp, pull.

Ken did mention no fuss preparation, however I've found that a bit of extra attention improves upon the no fuss approach. Not all will agree the extra effort is justified. In any case, Ken's central theme, as I understand it, is that updosing has been advocated for years to the detriment of new home baristas because it increases the likelihood of extraction problems. I agree with him that dosing around the manufacturer-recommended 14 grams does reduce the risk of channeling in many cases. Some may still prefer the taste profile of higher doses and they may need to employ extra "fancy ass" techniques to avoid channeling.

[Alchemist]

Some may still prefer the taste profile of higher doses and they may need to employ extra "fancy ass" techniques to avoid channeling.

Why do I have a feeling that phrase is going to follow me around a while now?

Ah well, I don't object to a little extra attention as you say. I would even go so far to say that is "just good technique".

My main point was consider the grinder. Maybe if I had a "problem" grinder I would consider extra techniques. As it is, I get the luxury of a very carefree appearance in my shot building.

[malachi]

There is a difference between overdosing and updosing.

Overdosing is dosing too much (for a specific combination of coffee, machine and desired flavour).
Updosing is deliberately dosing more than the traditional weight (for a specific basket and machine).

Do not confuse the two.

[malachi]

Also... keep in mind that 14g is a number based on a specific coffee and basket (Illy, Faema double I believe).

The ridged double LM basket (for example) if dosed to a tamp level right above the ridge (max with a 58mm tamper) using the Ecco Reserve espresso yields a dose weight of between 16 and 18 grams (depending on age of beans) in my experience. This dose (with either an LM or a E61 group) doesn't show any sign of contact with the dispersion screen during brewing.

[cafeIKE]

Also... keep in mind that 14g is a number based on a specific coffee and basket (Illy, Faema double I believe).

The ridged double LM basket (for example) if dosed to a tamp level right above the ridge (max with a 58mm tamper) using the Ecco Reserve espresso yields a dose weight of between 16 and 18 grams (depending on age of beans) in my experience. This dose (with either an LM or a E61 group) doesn't show any sign of contact with the dispersion screen during brewing.

At my grind, 18g in an LM basket in the Vibiemme e61 will definitely be hard up against the screen.

[Ken Fox]

There is a difference between overdosing and updosing.

Overdosing is dosing too much (for a specific combination of coffee, machine and desired flavour).
Updosing is deliberately dosing more than the traditional weight (for a specific basket and machine).

Do not confuse the two.

The thread I started with the word "overdosing" in the title used the word "overdosing" to represent my theory/belief that we are using too much coffee in our espresso preparation and as a result causing problems for our equipment and producing an unbalanced beverage. I don't think it is a "real" term in the sense that one can apply it to espresso preparation in the way one might use "updosing." For better or worse, "updosing" is a real term used by some in the cafe business. "Overdosing" is probably only accurately used in relationship to drug addicts.

For me, basically all updosing produces shots I find "overdone." But that is just my opinion. There are many "overdone" wines and other products I choose not to buy, either, but to each his own.

ken

[malachi]

At my grind, 18g in an LM basket in the Vibiemme e61 will definitely be hard up against the screen.

Depends on grind, grinder, dosing/distribution and coffee.
As an example... I can easily dose more than 20grams of Hairbender in an LM ridged double using a Robur...

[Matthew Brinski]

Depends on grind, grinder, dosing/distribution and coffee.
As an example... I can easily dose more than 20grams of Hairbender in an LM ridged double using a Robur...

So true. If someone gets used to what a particular coffee looks and feels like in a basket to equal a certain weight, that volume can translate to a significantly different weight when using another coffee / blend. And, that is with the other variables mentioned being equal.

[CoffeeOwl]

Maybe a little lengthy and the extraction is almost invisible (forgive me - it was winter evening) - my first ever video of my coffee routine - if I can encourage my friends to buy cams I will have plenty of videos soon... everybody loves you when your coffee's good

[gvideo]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1557684337952252295[/gvideo]

[RapidCoffee]

There is a difference between overdosing and updosing.

Overdosing is dosing too much (for a specific combination of coffee, machine and desired flavour).
Updosing is deliberately dosing more than the traditional weight (for a specific basket and machine).

Do not confuse the two.

The same distinction has occurred to me. Here are some thoughts on dosing nomenclature (which I'm sure will not go unchallenged ). To keep things simple, I'm ignoring differences between coffees, grinders, and several espresso machine-related factors.

Correct dosing depends not only on the basket, but also on the grouphead. For example, a shower screen that extends downwards into the basket will limit the headspace and impact upon the correct dose. To distinguish between basket-related and grouphead-related dose factors, I'd like to suggest the following nomenclature.

Each basket appears to have a "preferred" dose range, which is obtained by filling the basket with grinds and leveling to the top rim. Anything significantly less than this (e.g., leveling the grounds below the rim) qualifies as downdosing. Any technique that packs significantly more coffee in the basket (by tapping, mid-fill tamping, or compressing the grounds on the basket surface prior to tamping) is updosing.

Overdosing occurs when the tamped grinds hit the shower screen as you lock in, leading to channeling. Underdosing is perhaps best described as a dose that is too small to produce a decent extraction. Underdosing and overdosing produce bad pours due to improper flow through the puck, characterized by taste deficiencies (overextraction or underextraction).

In general, underdosing and overdosing are terms we should reserve for incorrect dosing, defined by the grouphead geometry as well as the basket. Normal dosing, downdosing, updosing - these reflect dosing choices, not necessarily right or wrong.

For example, on my Vetrano I typically use a ridgeless "LM" double basket that favors doses of 16-18g with my Mazzer SJ grinder. A 14g downdose requires leveling below the rim of the basket, and a 20g updose requires compression of the grinds. On my equipment, I'd characterize doses much below 14g as underdosing, and doses much over 20g as overdosing.

On a side note, I'd like to thank Ken Fox for initiating recent discussions on dosing. We may not necessarily agree on "correct" dosing, but it was high time for more attention to be focussed on this critical espresso parameter.