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I'm no longer interested in the La Marzocco GS3 - Advice on what to get?

Need advice about equipment or want to share your latest discovery?

Link to "I'm no longer interested in the La Marzocco GS3 - Advice on what to get?"by charlesaf3 on Sat Dec 22, 2007 11:10 am

Similarly posted on coffee geek, and in the GS3 thread, but as advised I'm making an OP.

I was going to buy the GS/3 at 4500, but at 7500 its just become silly. SO what should I buy instead?

My two main contenders are the La Spaz Vivaldi Mini and the Brewtus, but I'd welcome other suggestions. Should I be looking at the Vibiemme Domobar? Or waiting to see what the double boiler looks like? I'm more than a bit sick of playing the waiting game... I need pourover, and 110.

About me - I'd say by the standards of this site my barista skills are average/competent. I use good, fresh, coffee - usual suspects - and fiddle with the grind.

Oh, and I'm planning to upgrade my grinder as well - currently looking at the Macap, Cimbali, and Mazzer - usual suspects.

Advice on the above is eagerly welcomed
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Link to "I'm no longer interested in the La Marzocco GS3 - Advice on what to get?"by Ken Fox on Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:09 pm

For the grinder comparisons, use the search function on this site for the various grinders that interest you. Don't forget to read the two huge threads on this topic, e.g. the "Titan Grinder Project" and "Can it beat the Robur?", both of which I believe are to be found easily on the "Bench" forum. The comments below assume someone has enough money to buy whatever they want, regardless of price, and will make the choice based solely on functionality and not on price.

Bottom line on the grinders is that with planar grinders, the bigger the diameter of the burrs, the better. A general consensus would be that you have to go to at least 64mm and likely larger in order to get the "best" results. This rules out the Mazzer Mini, for example. With the Conicals, you have basically the Mazzer Robur and the Compak K-10 at the top. The conicals are huge, some (me) might call them ugly and out of place in a domestic kitchen, but have the advantage of greater grind consistency and the need for less frequent grind setting changes in order to get good shots with coffees as they age and with changes in ambient humidity.

In the middle is the Cimbali Max, which is a hybrid design using both a conical and a large planar burr set. The planar burr set in the Max is used strictly for "slicing"/ e.g. grinding, whereas in a strictly planar grinder the outer part of the burrs are used for crushing (which is done by the conical burr set in the Max). The result is a much longer grind surface, which is coincidentally the advantage of the large straight conicals.

The Max will need much less frequent grind changes than a straight planar, especially the smaller straight planars such as the Mazzer Mini. As a result, you will have fewer sink shots. The larger conicals will have even fewer required grind setting changes, and perhaps slightly less sink shots than the Max, although at this level of grinder we are talking maybe 1 sink shot on the conicals per 2 weeks and 1 per week on the Max, assuming you are not changing coffees during this time period. The corresponding number for me on a Cimbali Junior grinder would be maybe 3-4 per week. As an aside, if you invest in a cheap 0.1g digital scale and weigh your grinds, you can reduce the number of sink shots dramatically on any grinder.

After you look at simply the grind product, you have to look at usability and appearance and fit and finish in a domestic environment. With those criteria, the Compak and the Robur fall down; the Compak on both appearance, fit and finish, and usability criteria, and the Robur on size and appearance in a domestic environment criteria. The Max is much cheaper than either of these, is easier to use (if you prefer the fine adjustment capability of the worm gear adjustment), and looks nice in a kitchen.

Alternatively, you could look at a large commercial planar grinder, however these (such as a Mazzer Major) may look out of scale in your kitchen and are not going to be cheap (as new), either.

But I do suggest you read the above referenced threads and use the search function. There is already more information on this site than you will need to make your choice.

As to the espresso machines, there is also extensive information on this site. Look over Dan's equipment reviews and use the search function. This will give you a much better idea of what is out there than simply reading posts from people recommending whatever it is that they have purchased for themselves. Finally, you don't necessarily have to box yourself in based upon criteria of whether or not a machine is to be plumbed in or not. There are ways to turn a pourover into a pseudo plumbed in machine later, and ways to use a normally plumbed in machine as a pseudo pourover. Rotary machine driven machines can be run off a bottle, and taking but one example, the drip tray on the Cimbali Junior does not need to be drilled, in which case you could simply dump out the drip tray daily or every two days, into the sink, as you would with a pourover. With my rotary Junior, I only plumbed in the drain after many months and instead simply put the discharge tube into the sink which was adjacent to it, or it could be run down into a gallon milk jug as another possibility, more or less what I'm doing with my old pourover Junior right now:

Image

You could also consider doing some simple mods yourself, which may get you closer to whatever characteristics you admired in the GS3, at a much smaller cost and perhaps delivering a sense of accomplishment in the process. You would be amazed at what you can accomplish if you set your mind to it.

ken
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Thanks

Link to "I'm no longer interested in the La Marzocco GS3 - Advice on what to get?"by charlesaf3 on Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:36 pm

Thank you for the informative reply. (and the wonderful site)

I've actually read most of what you recommended - the "problem" is at this level everything seems - and probably is - pretty good. So by putting my criteria out there, I'm hoping someone will be kind enough to give an expert's take on "they are all good, but this is probably best for you"

I actually have the tools, and I hope the talent, to do mods, but I don't have the time. I already have around 50 projects on my list, and modding an espresso machine would probably happen, oh, around 2011 or so. So I'd prefer not to go there. And I'm currently renting an apartment with a not so big kitchen, and they wouldn't be too keen on me drilling out holes, so that's a bit of a constraint as well.

I'm leaning toward the chris coffee Cimbali Max hybrid - does that seem reasonable?

And so far on search I've not found a really in depth comparison of the Vivaldi II and the Brewtus and the Domobar - is there one that I've missed? As mentioned, the distinctions seem very fine from reading, and I won't be able to try before buying.

Thanks again
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Link to "I'm no longer interested in the La Marzocco GS3 - Advice on what to get?"by Ken Fox on Sat Dec 22, 2007 1:48 pm

charlesaf3 wrote:Thank you for the informative reply. (and the wonderful site)

I've actually read most of what you recommended - the "problem" is at this level everything seems - and probably is - pretty good. So by putting my criteria out there, I'm hoping someone will be kind enough to give an expert's take on "they are all good, but this is probably best for you"


All the better grinders are certainly at least decent. What is best for you is something that only you can determine.

If money is no object, you have to decide based upon suitability for your usage pattern. None of these grinders is going to be very good for someone who wants to change coffees used multiple times a day; you will end up wasting a lot of coffee if you want to truly clean out the old grinds from the prior bean type. Nonetheless, someone who wants to do this would be better off with a grinder whose throat can be easily modified, like one of the Mazzers or the Compak. The Cimbali Max and Cimbali Jr. are both unsuited to this sort of use.

If you don't care what the grinder looks like or how much room it takes up, then I'd go with a straight conical such as the Compak K-10 or the Mazzer Robur. These will seldom need to be adjusted from day to day.

If you want something that will look good in your kitchen, then a Cimbali Max, Cimbali Junior, or a Mazzer Mini would all suffice. The Mazzer Mini and the Cimbali Jr. will need frequent grind adjustments and as a result you will toss more shots down the sink in the adjusting process and day to day. The Max is much better in this regard than the Mini or the Junior, and a little bit less good in this way than the conicals such as the Robur or the Compak.

The subjective quality of the grinds from the Junior and from the Mini are inferior to those of the Max or the straight conicals, in the view of everyone I know of who has experience with both sorts of grinders.

But none of this is to be construed as telling you what would be best for you; I have no idea about your own personal taste and cannot guess which of them you would prefer or be most happy with months down the road.

ken
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Link to "I'm no longer interested in the La Marzocco GS3 - Advice on what to get?"by charlesaf3 on Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:07 pm

I think the max is clearly the grinder for me - only usage will tell if I am correct. The inability to use drip is unimportant, and the size factor is moderately important.

I actually find it harder to distinguish between the Brewtus, Vibiemme, and Vivaldi. Given that the grinder, coffee and handle side of the portafilter are all more important, I'm looking for something with a short learning curve, and a reasonable amount of forgiveness, as I am far from my best before my morning coffee, which tends to affect the quality of said morning coffee.

I also do very much enjoy lattes, and would prefer a machine that makes latte art easier. This seems to indicate the Vivaldi over the Brewtus from what I can gather reading the various reviews.

I've been unable to find an in depth Vivaldi vs. Brewtus review - just stuff indicating pluses or minuses of each machine, which though helpful are challenging to distinguish. Is there such a thing? Or someone with personal experience who can relate them to the criteria above?
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Link to "I'm no longer interested in the La Marzocco GS3 - Advice on what to get?"by zin1953 on Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:08 pm

I've not used either one, BUT -- here's my 2¢ anyway . . . go for the Vivaldi.

a) Chris' Coffee Service is behind it, and b) I had an Expobar (the makers of Brewtus) for a little while, and it leaked like a sieve.

Me? I'm going for a Cimbali Jr. and MAX Hybrid. :wink:
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My choice

Link to "I'm no longer interested in the La Marzocco GS3 - Advice on what to get?"by Vidio on Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:22 pm

I was recently in the same situation as you. I had my name on the GS3 list but decided it was getting too silly in price and availability. I decided on the Vivaldi Mini and the Mazzer Mini Electronic doserless (typeA). I love the Vivaldi and agree with others here who recommended it. The Mini seems up to the quality and standards of the VII. The reservoir holds three liters and is easy to fill.

One thing that was mentioned in one of the other posts about grinders was about the need for 64 mm burrs which they said ruled out the Mazzer. In fact the doserless version does have 64 mm burrs, unlike the earlier doser model. It seems to be performing quite well although I do adjust it for each batch of coffee and sometimes just for weather changes.
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Link to "I'm no longer interested in the La Marzocco GS3 - Advice on what to get?"by Marshall on Sat Dec 22, 2007 7:43 pm

Something happened to the GS3? Oh, no, and I'm on the List!

As someone who is in a similar situation, here is what I am doing, FWIW. Because of Ken's relentless proselytizing, I had a firm rule against buying anything with a "Cimbali" label on it. However, the Max grinder in Chris's consumer-friendly Jr. box proved irresistible. It arrives in two days. But, please, do not under any circumstances let Ken know I purchased a Cimbali machine.

As for the espresso maker, I have no urgent need to upgrade, as my PID'd Zaffiro is only occasionally called into service for company. Nevertheless, I am intrigued by the VBM double boiler and will follow its release and the experiences of the early adopters. Gee, does Jim Piccinich have a list I can get on?
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Link to "I'm no longer interested in the La Marzocco GS3 - Advice on what to get?"by Rainman on Sat Dec 22, 2007 8:11 pm

charlesaf3 wrote:I actually find it harder to distinguish between the Brewtus, Vibiemme, and Vivaldi. Given that the grinder, coffee and handle side of the portafilter are all more important, I'm looking for something with a short learning curve, and a reasonable amount of forgiveness, as I am far from my best before my morning coffee, which tends to affect the quality of said morning coffee.

I also do very much enjoy lattes, and would prefer a machine that makes latte art easier. This seems to indicate the Vivaldi over the Brewtus from what I can gather reading the various reviews.

I've been unable to find an in depth Vivaldi vs. Brewtus review - just stuff indicating pluses or minuses of each machine, which though helpful are challenging to distinguish. Is there such a thing? Or someone with personal experience who can relate them to the criteria above?


I can't give a comparison between the Vivaldi and the Brewtus, but I'm still waiting for a problem with mine now over 2-1/2 yrs old, and one of the first generation machines. Given all of the similarities, I'd consider picking one that suits you aesthetically instead. I realize that you probably can't beat the customer service of Chris' Coffee, but I've had 3 other friends purchase Brewtuses, and all are very happy (they are considerably quieter now, btw). At some point I think we may be splitting hairs on significant differences between these machines, as I think they're all well made and produce consistently good shots with minimal fuss. Here's a read by Greg Scace regarding the Brewt's temp stability- http://www.home-barista.com/forums/la-spaziale-vivaldi-ii-dual-boiler-or-hx-t3557.html#37997 It's approximately 1/2 way down the page.

As far as grinders go, Ken's right on. Pick one that suits your needs the most. I bought a Kony before the Titan Grinder Project, but still wouldn't trade it for the world-- although I did mod it a bit before using it extensively, dealing with the dose is a non-issue anymore. The doses of coffee used to compare it to the Robur are smaller (13.5 gm) than I use, where the Robur won it's bout against the Kony, per Jim's notes- Not an issue with me, as I routinely dose > 16 gm in a naked pf.

My $0.02/worth.

Ray
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Link to "I'm no longer interested in the La Marzocco GS3 - Advice on what to get?"by cannonfodder on Sat Dec 22, 2007 9:09 pm

Marshall wrote:However, the Max grinder in Chris's consumer-friendly Jr. box proved irresistible. It arrives in two days. But, please, do not under any circumstances let Ken know I purchased a Cimbali machine.


He, he, he. The Cimbali World Domination Plot continues to unfold.

That new VBM is looking interesting. It ships overseas first and if I remember correctly Stefano quoted something like March for the US distro. The other two options have a standing track record and a large following. Which ever machine you pick, get the most grinder you can afford, be it Kony, Robur, MXK, Max etc...
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Link to "I'm no longer interested in the La Marzocco GS3 - Advice on what to get?"by jonniewishbone on Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:34 am

My experience with the NS Appia has been really good. Huge steam with the big boiler and pumps out quality shots one after the other. Been using it for 5 months now and am seriously thinking of getting the two group. It is paired with a Macap 4 stepless which has passed the test as well. Totally love the stepless feature as I grind per cup and usually have a minimum of 5 different beans on hand for the coffee hounds to pick from.

The Appia also doesn't require a cool down flush. I still do it out of habit but it is a nice feature if you have to pull a quick shot or..... you forget!?!

Good luck in your choice. Did you ever think of a Synesso? I have been thinking of a two grouper in that as well. A lot of cleaning tho to keep that metal box looking good. :roll:
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Link to "I'm no longer interested in the La Marzocco GS3 - Advice on what to get?"by zin1953 on Sun Dec 23, 2007 12:05 pm

jonniewishbone wrote:My experience with the NS Appia has been really good . . . Did you ever think of a Synesso?

Jon, the only problem with these machines is the OP's requirement that:

charlesaf3 wrote:I need pourover, and 110.


* * * * *

Charles,

The requirement of 110v and pourover DOES have a few more options than previously discussed. It brings us down -- I think -- to the following machines (in random order):

1) The Expobar Brewtus II (dual boiler).

2) The new, non-plumbed version La Spaziale "Mini" Vivaldi II (dual boiler).

3) The currently available HX machines from Vibiemme.

4) The rotary pump, tank machines of the Astra Gourmet line (HX).

5) The rotary pump, tank machines from Salvatore (HX).

6) The yet-to-arrive dual-boiler, non-plumbed version from Vibiemme.

As I said previously, between the Brewtus and the Vivaldi, I'd take the Vivaldi. But the others are (to me, anyway) VERY intriguing. I love the idea of the quietness of the rotary pump. The Astra and Salvatore both have solid reputations, and are made here in California. The Vibiemme's are very exciting and also have solid reputations.

Food for thought.

Cheers,
Jason

P.S. I'd upgrade the grinder first. In fact, I am upgrading the grinder first -- to a Cimbali MAX Hybrid. :)
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Link to "I'm no longer interested in the La Marzocco GS3 - Advice on what to get?"by mgwolf on Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:09 pm

It'll be tough to find someone who has compared the Brewtus and Vivaldi back to back. I just bought a Vivaldi Mini pourover from Chris and have fooled with it for 10 days. Extremely nice machine. Well made, makes great coffee, very consistently. It has a vibe pump which is quieter than many other vibe machines I've heard. Steams incredibly well, usually more than I want. I didn't want a plumbed in machine, so I was thrilled when the Viv Mini came out. I'm using it with a Mazzer Mini which I've had for a few years and been quite happy with. The first shot I made with the Vivaldi right out of the box was good, and they've been getting better over the past week. It's nice to be able to adjust the temp a degree at a time. Also, you may care about looks -- the Brewtus has the stainless look which is also harder to keep looking nice and the Viv has the plastic modern commercial look to it (which people either love or hate). Doubt you would go wrong with either one. I would also note that the Viv Mini reservoir is not actually a pourover, but a little drawer that is extremely handy to pull out and fill. With many pourovers, it's difficult to pull the reservoir out, or get to the reservoir at all without removing the warming tray. Michael
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Link to "I'm no longer interested in the La Marzocco GS3 - Advice on what to get?"by charlesaf3 on Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:13 pm

Not sure what you mean about lists marshall? I've no problem with the theory of a list, as long as it eventually leads to a machine. But I've needed a new machine for a while, so no more waiting - I may well end up buying again in a year if the Vibiemme double boiler is as appears, but in the meantime, I need a new espresso machine.

I'll be buying the cimbali max hybrid grinder in any case, so no worries on that upgrade.

Thanks Jason, I think I'm leaning toward the Vivaldi Mini II right now, but am still intrigued by the Brewtus. Does anyone think there is a pronounced difference for getting microfoam out of one or the other?

Does anyone know whether buying from Chris mean having to ship the machine back for service?
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Link to "I'm no longer interested in the La Marzocco GS3 - Advice on what to get?"by Matthew Brinski on Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:16 pm

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Link to "I'm no longer interested in the La Marzocco GS3 - Advice on what to get?"by charlesaf3 on Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:18 pm

Oh, I should have added that noise and looks aren't that important to me. Sure quiet is nice, and pretty is nice (all other things considered stainless with an art deco esthetic would be ideal), but I only really care about functionality.

I find most espresso equipment to be pretty ugly in truth. Which is fine.

Thanks for the info Michael - any thoughts on milk steaming?

For filling the reservoir, I just use a sink sprayer, which I find pretty painless.
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Link to "I'm no longer interested in the La Marzocco GS3 - Advice on what to get?"by charlesaf3 on Sun Dec 23, 2007 2:21 pm

The dalla corte is interesting, but there doesn't seem to be much in the way of reviews and user base for it? I've owned a few too many "which of these ones is not like the others" machines in my life, and the hassle is wearing on me.

Oh, and I see from the link its 230, so that won't work currently.
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Link to "I'm no longer interested in the La Marzocco GS3 - Advice on what to get?"by zin1953 on Sun Dec 23, 2007 3:45 pm

Dalla Corte started getting some buzz as a dual boiler machine some two or three years ago, but they've been unavailable here in the US. A search here or on CG will uncover some users in Europe and in Aus/NZ that quite like them. I have been looking at Dalla Corte -- or trying to -- that whole time, and was quite happy to see they are now/soon wll be available here.

Alas, I too missed the 230v requirement. p-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-f-t It's once again off my list . . . .
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Link to "I'm no longer interested in the La Marzocco GS3 - Advice on what to get?"by Randii on Sun Dec 23, 2007 3:49 pm

Hi charlesaf3,

I noticed that nobody has chimed in about the Brewtus who actually owns one, so I decided to "take pity" on you and respond to your questions. :D I have no experience with a Vivaldi so I can't do a comparison outside of the realm of "what I have heard from others". People have said that the steam is not as powerful on the Brewtus as it is on the Vivaldi, but, I upgraded from a Silvia to the Brewtus, and the steam was too much for me to handle at first. I downgraded to the one hole tip in order to get some control over the steam. When I finally learned to use the steam wand on my Brewtus, I upgraded back to the two hole tip. Now I am better at steaming and considering the three hole steam tip. I don't find anything wrong with the steam power, it's powerful enough and fast enough for me. I am able to get good quality microfoam out of the Brewtus.

People have said that the Brewtus is not well built, but I haven't found that to be true at all (Most of the complaints I have seen have actually been about other Expobar machines, as is the one listed below - none of which are a Brewtus - so I don't think those comparisons have any real validity). I haven't had a single thing go wrong with my machine, and I use it everyday. The only thing I don't like about my Brewtus is the cup holder - I think it looks chincy, so I don't use it. People have said that they have problems with the drip tray cover. It is a small pain to get it into place - you can't put it back on if the portafilter is in place - but it's not the big deal that everybody seems to make of it - it is unimportant. I like the size of the drip tray, and I don't have any problems with the pour-over reservoir, as I don't have to refill it that often.

People have complained about the vibe pump, but no one points out that the Silvia also has a vibe pump - as does the Mini Vivaldi. The only issue here is about noise (which isn't that bad!), and that doesn't affect the taste of the coffee. I like the look of the metal Brewtus in comparison to the Vivaldi - but that also doesn't affect the taste of the coffee, so it doesn't really matter that much either!

People have also said that the Vivaldi is slightly better than the Brewtus, but no one has actually spelled out exactly what makes it better. I know that Mark Prince said, "I think the 53mm pf on the Vivaldi and on La Spaziale machines in general are their greatest shortcomings". The Brewtus comes with a 58mm portafilter - and the professional baristas I know really like my machine.

Ultimately, the Vivaldi was much too big for my space anyway, and the pour-over version wasn't available at the time, so I went with the Brewtus. I'm very happy with it and I think it's a good machine.

-Randii
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Link to "I'm no longer interested in the La Marzocco GS3 - Advice on what to get?"by charlesaf3 on Sun Dec 23, 2007 6:00 pm

Randii wrote:People have also said that the Vivaldi is slightly better than the Brewtus, but no one has actually spelled out exactly what makes it better


Yep, this spells out my problem exactly. Makes the whole thing challenging, though on the flip side, doesn't seem like there is a "wrong" answer between the two.
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