I'm about to throw Silvia out the window!

[Medic One]

Admittedly I am a new Silvia owner and not a veteran. But I have been reading posts all over the web about this finicky machine. Just this morning I pulled 8 shots with a bottomless portafilter, none of which produced a 2 oz. shot longer than 19 seconds. I'm grinding with a Rocky on 3! I'm tamping with over 30 lbs. of pressure. I even recently backed off the OPV 1/2 a turn.

I have been trying different dosing amounts also. When I fill to the rim of the basket and tamp with significant force my puck still contacts the screen. Those shots tend to be fast and blond. So I started to underdose such that when tamped, my puck was below the "crimp spring" ridge in the portafilter basket. While this prevented contact between the puck and the screen it didn't help with my shot times.

I have been able to choke Silvia only twice. It was with a grind at about 1 or 2 and some serious, repeated tamping. I was trying to establish some kind of baseline. But as stated earlier when I back off a bit to 3 on the Rocky, I still get quick pours and LOTS of blond and sour/bitterness.

So here are some specific questions:
1. Without purchasing a pressure reading portafilter, how can I tell if Silvia is simply running too much pressure?
1a. How many turns of the OPV valve with make meaningful pressure changes?

2. Should I continue to dose such that the puck doesn't touch the screen?

3. Is it reasonable that I'm grinding at 3 (This is true 3. It's 2 on the dial and 3 clicks back from burr contact) and still getting quick pours?

Thanks for the help. I don't think that repeated sips of terrible pours is helping my patience any. I'm taking a break.

[gadflea]

I'm sure this is the first question any member here will ask: what beans are you using? When I first bought silvia I used starbucks beans until I could get fresh beans from intelligentsia. The results were atrocious and similar to what you have described. Fast shots are symptomatic of stale and over roasted beans. I also find the stale beans contribute to side channeling, another thing that could be causing the fast pours.

[Medic One]

I was going to include comments on all the variable, but didn't want my first plea for help to be a novel.

I was using some beans that my wife picked up at a small local coffee shop chain in Gig Harbor, WA. They are getting close to two weeks old. I was using them to practice picking a grind setting. When I thought I had things dialed in I switched to Vashon Coffee (roasted in Vashon Island near Seattle and used in several coffee houses) which was roasted 7 days ago.

I was very excited. I was using the bottomless. I underdosed. I "declumped" with a fork. I did a couple light taps on the counter to settle the grind. I did a moderate first tamp, then a light tap on the portafilter side with the tamper. Then it was the final heavier tamp and polishing spin. Onto the Silvia...... I was off to a good start with darker color quickly forming a long, centered cone leading me to think I had good distribution without channeling. But it quickly turned blond and only took 15 seconds to get 2 oz.

I'm not a weak man. I've got to think I'm tamping sufficiently hard. And I'm grinding at 3. What is up?

[Grant]

You said this was a new Silvia?

If so, it should have an adjustable over pressure valve (OPV). Without a gauge, it is difficult to set to an exact value, but when I had my Silvia many, many moons ago, I found getting a decent shot almost impossible with the factory OPV setting.

Reducing the brew pressure hitting the puck made a HUGE and instantaneous difference in shot quality. I, like you, was not sure what I was doing wrong, and I spent a lot of time (and money) on everything from tampers to beans, and in the end, reducing the brew pressure was the ONLY thing that made any difference.

So, even just "winging it" it is possible to get in the ballpark of 9 bar - make sure you make note of the factory setting and do everything with the machine cool and unplugged - make small changes, and test often. The way I did it was to insert the blind filter, and start the pump (don't run it too long - only bursts of around 10 seconds with rest time in-between!). Watching the return water line to the resevoir, I adjusted the OPV (at the time by using copper washers), until I was getting a light, but steady trickle back out of the OPV into the tank.

To this day, I still have no exact knowledge of what the pressure setting was, or was changed to, but I just let my taste and shot quality guide me.

Moving later to a machine with a gauge/etc. then proved to me I was close as well.

Of course, you could always purchase a PF with a pressure gauge.

[gadflea]

Here are a few things to consider:
1. Your tamping routine sounds a little overzealous. I would suggest doing away with the light tap on the portafilter side because that can break the puck's adhesion to the basket and lead to side channeling. The fact that you describe yourself as "not a weak man" leads me to think you may be tamping too hard. It really does not take much pressure to get a good tamp.
2. Did you buy Rocky used? If so, the burrs may need to be replaced. I don't know for sure that this is your problem, but it seems weird to me that you are grinding three clicks above the burrs touching and still get <20 second pulls. I have never seen burrs that are worn out so I do not know how to tell you what that looks like. Just a thought.
3. Finally, look at this article for further suggestions on tamping and extraction problems. http://www.home-barista.com/naked-extraction.html

[Medic One]

Thanks for the ideas...

I stuck a blank into my portafilter and pumped for around 12 seconds and observed a continuous flow of water out of the return line. As mentioned before I have already "backed off" the OPV 1/2 turn. I'm right aren't I? Counter clock wise is less pressure, right?

I also disassembled the Rocky to check the burrs. I removed the top burr ring and it feels pretty sharp. Not like a razor but I could see cutting your finger with a little pressure. I also double checked the zero point by screwing the top burr ring all the way down until I couldn't spin the lower burr ring. I then backed off just enough to allow some rotation but with audible contact. Returning the bean hopper and step indicator puts my true zero point at -1.5 (although there is a "protection" screw that won't let me actually reach that zero point).

So unless I want to, or should, back off the OPV even more (advise?) I guess it's down to beans and technique.

I'm going back to filling the basket up to the rim then brushing off with a flat edge. It sounds like that is more the norm around here. I'm also going to focus on drying the basket REALLY well prior to adding coffee.

What say you about the tap, tap, tap on the counter to "settle" the coffee prior to tamping? And what about a medium tamp, polish then harder tamp?

thanks

[gadflea]

I have never adjusted the pressure valve on my machine so I don't have any advice there.
On to tamping... Rocky produces clumps so I suggest stirring with a needle to break up those clumps. After stirring, tapping the portafilter to settle the grinds should be unnecessary. On the other hand, I don't think it can hurt either. I always use a very light (as in no downward pressure), four-corner-tamp to get the grounds off of the side of the basket and then a single firm tamp and light polish.
Tamping methodology is kind of a personal thing. What works for me may not work for you. Experiment with different techniques, change only one variable at a time, and eventually you will figure it out. You may also want to order a bag of beans from one of the tried and true site sponsors like Counter Culture or Intelligentsia just to be sure that the beans are not your problem.
Good luck.

[djmonkeyhater]

Something sounds not right here.

I use a newish Rocky everyday with a single group small commercial machine (Faema Compact). It's had less than 100lbs of beans through the burrs and we will choke that machine or a number of other machines I've messed with if we run it under 9. This is almost independent of the bean. When we get new beans, it goes up to maybe 12 and down to 10 by the end of the week.

I was even messing with a machine that had the pump running at 13 bar and the OPV semi-disabled and the puck stalled the pump. Rocky was not set under 10.

[erics]

Without purchasing a pressure reading portafilter, how can I tell if Silvia is simply running too much pressure?

Unfortunately, the majority, if not all, of the PF's you can purchase with pressure gages are lacking a quality pressure gage. You would be MUCH BETTER off by building your own. Do a search on this site for "pressure gage" or "portafilter gage".

Alternatively,

Measure the flow in the return line using a pyrex cup while pumping with a blind filter. With a stop watch, time how long it takes to go from the 2 oz mark to the 6 oz mark or 4 oz to 8 oz etc, etc. You'll come up with 4 ounces in "X" seconds. "X" should be between 27 and 28 seconds. Adjust the OPV as necessary to get this time.

This will give you very close to 9.0 bar blind filter pressure and about 8.5 bar with a normal double-shot flow.

Practice your tamping with a bathroom scale - 20-30 lbs force is fine. The idea is to be level and consistent.

A digital scale could be one of your best accessory tools.

[civ]

Hello there:

Something sounds not right here.

I have to agree.
As of late and after a couple of years or so of very consistent shots of very good (to me, of course) espresso, all of a sudden I had a number of problems with my rig. And very much like the ones you describe in you post, medic_one.

The possible culprits I searched for evidence were:

1. temperature settings and/or PID
Went through a whole range of different temps.
Checked the PID probe, changed the home made TC for a Pt100, just in case.
No dice, outside probe in boiler and PF certified everything temp-wise was OK.

2. the rotary pump gone south.
So I took it offline and put the Ulka with the OVP back in.
No dice. Manometer sings the right tune before boiler and at PF.

3. grinder settings.
They had not been touched with the exception of the ocasisonal notch up/down for special weather days.
Tried a small range, ground a lot.
No dice.

4. the burrs gone bad all of a sudden.
I took the grinder apart, cleaned it and adjusted all screws, They sure didn't look bad but still I started looking up prices of new 80mm burrs. Started using a spare grinder with smaller 64mm burrs.
No dice. This smaller grinder even clogged up a bit.

5. so all the burrs in the house had gone bad all of a sudden ...?
No.
Wait a seco ...
Can't be.

Could it possibly be the coffee that my usual purveyor (from more than two years now) swears by his mom and grandmom had been roasted just a week ago?
Nah !
The lack of that characteristic aroma on grinding should have warned me, but this guy was highly recommended.
I called him up, complained, sent the stuff back and got another batch in exchange, as 'fresh' as the one I sent back, of course.
No dice.

So just I went to another supplier and got myself a bag of Italian coffee (1Kg. bag Segafredo Premium, 25% more expensive than what I had been buying) and bingo !!!

The first shot was perfect.
No adjustments to temp, grind or pressure.

The bottom line?
It's usually the beans.

See here:


Note to Self: It's the Beans, Dummy!

Hope you get things sorted out.
Best regards,

CIV

[Randy G.]

There is an awful lot to deal with there, and more besides that isn't there.

First, head down to the store and pick up some patience. Silvia is NOT a machine for someone who can be easily frustrated. No offense meant, but patience is definitely a virtue when it comes to owning an espresso machine. Wnat something easier to use and more consistent? Try spending twice as much as a starting point-- yes, it really does matter, but back to teh point.

You should be able to choke Silvia with Rocky with grind adjustment to spare. Ignore the numbers on Rocky. Grind finer, one step at a time, and do so until nothing comes out, then work the other direction. You say you cholked her at 1 or two with some hard tamping. Grind at -1 and tamp more gently and see what happens.

Get out a scale and measure your tamping force. 30 pounds? I'd bet it's closer to 50 or 60. I can get 30 pounds with two fingers. My advice- tamp at ten pounds until you find a grind that works, and work from there once you get consistent results.

Two weeks, fresh from the roaster, is the end of life for good espresso, but they should still afford a good pull with good crema, assuming that they really are two weeks old.

I would bet that the OPV was pretty darn close when you got the machine. You will need a pressure gauge now to readjust it, or at least check it. A pressure regulator should not be adjusted without a gauge. You end up chasing your tail. I have a dog with epilepsy that does that and it will get annoying after a while.

DO NOT declump after dosing with a fork. it will compress the coffee too much and cause overdosing which is a whole other problem. Use a dissecting needle, or even a straightened paper clip or sewing needle stuck into a pencil eraser or piece of 1/4" wood dowel. Thoroughly declump the entire basket, level off with a crooked finger, settle the grounds with downward tapping, then tamp to 10 pounds, and lock and load, then remove the PF. There should only be the slightest indentation of the screw in the coffee. Silvia is VERY sensitive to dose amount.

Oce you get this down, we can start talking about brew temperature control!

[tcampbells]

I have had a Silvia and Rocky combination for just over a month and a galf. Like you I have went through a great deal of problems at first (and still sometimes problems now).

I was grinding too coarse. I thought it was fine enough when compared to what my coffee shop gave me, but it was not.

Follow the suggestions here. Grind as fine as possible, to choke the machine, then grind coarser 2 clicks and you should be fine. It doesn't matter what the dial says, every rocky is different, every coffee is different. what matters is the results.

One problem I had at first was over dosing. I was thinking I had about 14 grms in the basket but often it was more, and sometimes it was less. I concluded that when it was less I had better pulls. I now weigh it at 12.5g and I get great shots. When I as locking it in at over dose or 14 grms I found that the bolt in the screen was breaking the puck and causing terribily fast pulls. Loading less prevents this. Amazing creme and nice taste. I run the same beans, the same grind and the same routine with 14g and I get a totally different shot.

The amazing think with espresso is how little it takes to change everything. Use the same beans and the same routine and one click finer in the rocky and you can get an over extracted shot with at terrible taste.

remove the tap from your routine. It usually causes the side channeling evident with a slow pull at first speeding up near the end.

Grind into a container (plastic cup), break up the chumps, pour into the PF and spead even with finger, light tap on the counter to settle grounds then tamp (30pounds or less, not more). Lock and run the shot. (try under dosing, not over dosing at first)

Another question, are you keeping the PF out of the group for a long time before the pull? while grinding the coffee into he container keep it locked in place,only remove at the last second to load and lock. I have found that if I am slow, grind driectly into the pf, then my shots pull faster and taste worse. Even the minute to grind, distribute and tamp cooled it enough to ruin the shot. Keeping the cups in a water bath before the pour also helps.

Also try beans from another source. My favorite supplier I was using for a while and having more problems, went to another place and got beans with a fantastic pull everytime. bean quality really matters with espresso. Beans that make amazing coffee with my Hario Siphon, mokka pot, French press or auto-drip, don't alway work with Silvia.

[Medic One]

Does anyone know what this is?

This is the screw that prevents you from finding true "zero" on your Rocky grinder. This is the screw that makes you think you are tapping the burrs together when you are actually tapping the screw up against some stop in the grinder. This is the screw, that when removed, makes you realize you are not grinding at 3 or 4 but that you are actually grinding at 8 or 9! This is the screw that makes you want to throw Silvia out the window because you are going insane because everyone says to grind finer and you are thinking "I can't go any finer!"

Is this some Rancilio conspiracy against me or do others know about this little insanity maker?

Anyway...

Tonight my grinder is empty, it is late, and I am tired. But first thing tomorrow you can bet I'm gonna' be grinding some beans reeeeeeeaaaaaaal fine. And I'm going to get a beautiful 25 second pour!

Thanks again.

[tcampbells]

We all have it (though some remove it).

It's there as a "safety" measure so the burrs aren't squashed together. Removing it will allow you to "calibrate" the Rocky to the true zero point with the hopper re-attached to see where the number is at. You remove the safety screw at your own risk. If when the motor was running you were trying to turn the dial to finer or coarser and you accidentally let go, then the motor might cause the burrs to grind together on their own at the full speed of the motor causing chips or destroying the burrs or the motor! The safety screw is to prevent this and damage to the burrs.

In reality there should be no need to remove it for your purpose. If you are unable to get a fine enough grind to make a proper extraction with it in place, there are other issues in your process which are off. Grinding super fine to make up for other problems will usually just result in over extraction, and a bad shot.

It is useful to remove if you want to adjust the number scale to really show zero where 0 is, or to allow you to remove the upper burrs with the hopper when cleaning, but other than that, there is no use.

The numbers are nothing more than a scale. It doesn't matter if mine say +4 and yours says +12 as long as you are getting the right grind. My true 0 is -1, so I grind at around 6 or 8 depending upon the beans, the age, the roast, etc.

Just be careful you do not damage the burrs or the grinder after removing the screw.

[popeye]

I know you talked about inspecting the burrs earlier, but you didn't answer the question about whether the rocky was new. I'm guessing it's not, since you inspected the burrs. Feel free to take a high quality shot of the burrs and post them up here. We'll take a look at them. (although, i can't imagine burrs that are worn enough to give you a bad grind at 3 clicks above "true" zero on a rocky.)

[HB]

If when the motor was running you were trying to turn the dial to finer or coarser and you accidentally let go, then the motor might cause the burrs to grind together on their own at the full speed of the motor causing chips or destroying the burrs or the motor! The safety screw is to prevent this and damage to the burrs.

Actually the burr faces are smooth and perfectly parallel, so they cannot (reasonably) be damaged by touching:


From Grinder burr types explained

The grinder burrs rotate in the opposite direction of the hopper; the safety screw is there to prevent the hopper rapidly unscrewing in the unlikely event that the burrs bind. The screw's secondary purpose is to prevent inattentive baristas from turning the adjustment completely out of whack.

[k7qz]

The grinder burrs rotate in the opposite direction of the hopper; the safety screw is there to prevent the hopper rapidly unscrewing in the unlikely event that the burrs bind. The screw's secondary purpose is to prevent inattentive baristas from turning the adjustment completely out of whack.

It also facilitates re-assembly by being able use the screw to quickly find the "zero" burr alignment consistently. At this stage for you, as others have suggested, I'd leave it.

Medic 1... Wow, Deja Vu... (Michael Copass and I are colleagues)

Anyway, you're in the Seattle area so there has got to be someone around town with a PF pressure gauge etc. that I'm sure would be glad to stop by and help you accurately (relatively) set your pump pressure. Perhaps make a friend down at the local high end espresso bar with someone who might be able to pitch in with a gauge. Otherwise, I built one with parts from Home Depot.

[Randy G.]

It also facilitates re-assembly by being able use the screw to quickly find the "zero" burr alignment consistently. At this stage for you, as others have suggested, I'd leave it.

I removed that screw years ago and never missed it at all. It makes removal of the upper burr much easier and faster, turning a fifteen minute job into a two minute one.

It has nothing to do with finding the zero point other than by possible coincidence. There have been reports of it actually interfering with finding a fine enough grind. To find the zero point without the screw do this:

With no beans in the machine and the grinder off, make note of the current grind position number, and turn the hopper as far towards a finer grind as it will go to check. Note that position as well just for reference. Now just unscrew the hopper until it can be lifted off the machine. To replace (and avoid cross threading), place the upper assembly on the grinder, make sure that it is level, and turn it COUNTERCLOCKWISE until you feel it drop just a bit (it may be more of a sort of 'click' feel). This is the point where the end of the threads pass each other. At that point you should be able to carefully turn the hopper clockwise and the threads should engage without a problem. Screw it on until it goes no further (the burrs hit) and then back to that original grind setting.

As stated earlier, that screw only functions to keep the upper burr/hopper assembly from spinning more than one revolution when an unthinking consumer hits the grind setting release button without grasping the hopper when the machine is grinding beans.

With all the mods spoken of here and on other forums, this one is one of the most benign, and certainly one of the easiest to reverse if you find it is not to your liking. Worst case, you hit the button, the burr spins to a coarser position and you have to readjust it. The screw is about as necessary as the warning on the bottom of a bath mat "THIS SIDE DOWN."

[peacecup]

You said the beans were two weeks old - two weeks after PURCHASE or after ROAST??? If the former, you have no way of knowing when they were roasted. Also, if they are on the darker side, these usually produce less crema and run faster.

Get some freshly ROASTED N. Italian espresso blend, set the Rocky at two, and it should stall completely. If not, try 1. Once you've found the stalling point just back it off a notch and you should be on your way.

PC

[Medic One]

Thanks to all for the input / help!

I managed to pull two shots one after the other, between 22 & 25 seconds for 2 oz!

The taste and coloring are another matter related mostly to old beans. I've gone with a very simple tamp technique so that hopefully I can duplicate it over and over again. Right now I'm going to focus on grind and beans.

As was pointed out by k7qz, I'm a Seattle firefighter/Paramedic. If anyone between Seattle and Gig Harbor is interested in loaning a guy a portafilter pressure gauge let me know. Or maybe I could bring Silvia to you?

Any way. I'm back in action minus one annoying screw!