Huh? Significant pour time difference between Mazzer Mini and Le'Lit PL53

[1st-line]

Now the $2 million question, and some thoughts/insight needed...

Story: An end user (and he can chime in here if he likes) purchased from one of our reseller distributors a Mazzer Electronic Type B for regular espresso and a Lelit PL53 doserless stepless grinder for decaf espresso.. Both for home use. Last night, I speak to this end user, and we find out both grinders are being used for a Lelit PL041 espresso machine.

Challenge: With the Lelit PL53 grinder, the end user can achieve a nice 25-27 double shot. With the Mazzer at the finest setting before it chokes on its own powder, the shot only achieves 14 seconds. Even switching coffees around, the same results occur.

The grind is coming out very fine on the Mazzer, but the desired result in the cup is not occurring. Dosage of ground coffee remains the same with both beans.

Anyone see this before? Any thoughts?

[darrylr]

Maybe check your burrs? Could be they are worn or damaged.

Darryl

[1st-line]

Both grinders are brand new.

[jesawdy]

Now the $2 million question, and some thoughts/insight needed...

Story: An end user (and he can chime in here if he likes) purchased from one of our reseller distributors a Mazzer Electronic Type B for regular espresso and a Lelit PL53 doserless stepless grinder for decaf espresso.. Both for home use. Last night, I speak to this end user, and we find out both grinders are being used for a Lelit PL041 espresso machine.

Challenge: With the Lelit PL53 grinder, the end user can achieve a nice 25-27 double shot. With the Mazzer at the finest setting before it chokes on its own powder, the shot only achieves 14 seconds. Even switching coffees around, the same results occur.

The grind is coming out very fine on the Mazzer, but the desired result in the cup is not occurring. Dosage of ground coffee remains the same with both beans.

Anyone see this before? Any thoughts?

Jim-

Clearly this is not to be expected, but not knowing much about the LeLit PL041 espresso machine, is it essentially comparable to Silvia? How is the brew pressure regulated? Perhaps the ratio of fines to other stuff that the LeLit grinder generates hits the sweet spot for the espresso machine and results in proper back pressure and a good extraction. Any reason to think that the brew pressure could be an issue (like unusually high)?

Other things that come to mind; is the user employing a scale to ensure consistent dosing? Coffees in question are fresh roast and not supermarket?

[HB]

Challenge: With the Lelit PL53 grinder, the end user can achieve a nice 25-27 double shot. With the Mazzer at the finest setting before it chokes on its own powder, the shot only achieves 14 seconds. Even switching coffees around, the same results occur.

The grind is coming out very fine on the Mazzer, but the desired result in the cup is not occurring. Dosage of ground coffee remains the same with both beans.

What is the setting of the Mazzer relative to its zero point? If it is indeed ultra fine (i.e., 3-4 notches above zero), then it's the coffee. Decaf, Robustas, and stale coffees are known for demanding ultra fine settings; I've literally screeched the burrs on a Cimbali Junior trying to dial in a blend high in Robusta. The PL53 may be producing a higher ratio of fines and thus reaches the choke zone more quickly.

[1st-line]

Jim-

Clearly this is not to be expected, but not knowing much about the LeLit PL041 espresso machine, is it essentially comparable to Silvia? How is the brew pressure regulated? Perhaps the ratio of fines to other stuff that the LeLit grinder generates hits the sweet spot for the espresso machine and results in proper back pressure and a good extraction. Any reason to think that the brew pressure could be an issue (like unusually high).

Other things that come to mind; is the user employing a scale to ensure consistent dosing? Coffees in question are fresh roast and not supermarket?

First bag was Lavazza, but customer purchased freshly roasted coffee to confirm before checking with me about problem. I consider the brew pressure a constant since it works well with the Lelit grinder.

The burrs on the mazzer tocuh at 1.5, but this relative. The problem is that the ground coffee chokes in the Mazzer Electronic chute to the doserless chamber before he can go finer.

Right now, it is really not the sweet spot that is the problem, it is achieving the proper timing for a double. With the Mazzer Electronic at its finest setting before it chokes the chute, the volume for a double double only results in approx 14 seconds.

[1st-line]

What is the setting of the Mazzer relative to its zero point? If it is indeed ultra fine (i.e., 3-4 notches above zero), then it's the coffee. Decaf, Robustas, and stale coffees are known for demanding ultra fine settings; I've literally screeched the burrs on a Cimbali Junior trying to dial in a blend high in Robusta. The PL53 may be producing a higher ratio of fines and thus reaches the choke zone more quickly.

If it was the coffee, then why does it work well on the lelit grinder with good results. This is what puzzles me?

In the last 6 years of selling Mazzers, we have only experienced one defective grinder. I am just puzzled.

[HB]

If it was the coffee, then why does it work well on the lelit grinder with good results. This is what puzzles me?

I offered up coffee as a possible culprit because you've (purportedly) eliminated the grind setting. Rubustas are soft and produce less fines, which could expose a difference between the two grinders that would not be obvious with a more "normal" grind setting. Either way, before going into diagnosis, I always ask "What coffee are you using? Is it fresh?" because all bets are off if the coffee isn't fresh.

Back to the original question: We haven't ruled out operator error. Your customer claims they have the Mazzer set to ultra fine; I would like to know it compared to absolute zero. It's unlikely but not impossible that the burrs are fouled with coffee tar. I've only seen it once before and the symptoms were the same. It's hard to imagine a Mazzer shipping with improperly seated burrs, but it never hurts to cover the bases. I would start by cleaning the burrs and confirming the zero mark relative to the factory "start here" sticker.

[giulio]

Thanks to everyone for the suggestions: I am the end user having a problem with the Mazzer.

A few clarifications. My machine is currently a Pasquini Livia (and a Pavoni that I use occasionally, plus I am waiting for a VBM double boiler). The beans are decaf espresso (and dark espresso) from Full City Coffee, Eugene, OR, and they are fresh (3 to 10 days from roasting) and, I may add, quite good.

As was mentioned, the Le'lit produces, using decaf, a grind fine enough that, with proper tamping, I have no problem producing a 10 sec preinfusion for a total of 25-27 sec. The setting is far from the finest, and I can go finer with no choking. At this setting, there are no clumps.

Same beans on the Mazzer produce a slightly coarser grind at a setting of around 4-5 small notches finer than factory zero. If I tamp very very hard, I can get to 20-25 sec. At this setting, there are noticeable clumps. Moreover, any attempt to go finer produces choking. At slighly coarser settings, perfect grind: no choke, no clumps, symmetrical pyramid. But it is not fine enough (10- 15 sec). And it is not the beans - same story with Lavazza crema beans.

As recommended, I went through a lot of Lavazza beans trying to adjust the setting all the way up to coarse and back to fine. On the way back I got finer grind than before, but soon it was choking again.

I have not yet tried to clean the burrs.

Any suggestions?

[desrever]

Are you weighing the doses to know that you're getting the same amount of coffee? The LeLit produces a very fluffy pile; on my double portafilter, a heaping stack from the PL53 is 20g. If I do WDT or if I tap to consolidate, the coffee get significantly denser.

I like this scale (note the 15% "subscribe and save" discount which amazon erroneously offers since it's categorized as a health product; you just have to cancel the subscription after your order ships):
http://www.amazon.com/My-Weigh-40...=1203638648&sr=8-7

I'd also try WDT on the Mazzer to see if the clumps are contributing to your problem somehow.

[desrever]

Didn't make this clear with my last post, but my theory was that, if you're dosing by equal volume and not equal weight, you might be overdosing w/ the Mazzer grind, causing the puck to crack as it expands during percolation.

[Randy G.]

Here's a stretch of a guess based on a few dozen assumptions: What if the mazzer creates a narrower range of particle sizes, so what is happening is that he very fine, consistent grind is fracturing the puck and causing the fast flow. Try grinding coarser to get a more heterogeneous grind and tamping harder... or softer and see what happens... All inaccuracies blamed on flu...

[jesawdy]

I have not yet tried to clean the burrs.

Any suggestions?

As Dan suggested, go ahead and open it up, see if the burrs are caked, clean and find the zero point. See Cleaning a Mazzer Mini. Knowing the zero is not imperative, but it would be a good bit of info to know how many notches from zero to the Espresso setting sticker for comparison.

[giulio]

Thanks for the suggestions. Indeed, it sounds like I may have to open it. There is no crack in the puck. I do weigh the double espresso, and the grind just before the choking point is simply not as fine as with the Le'lit when the latter is still far away from choking. I tried again at the recommended espresso setting (triangle) and the time is <10 sec - it just pours out - which is inevitable give n that it is rather coarse.