How Much Horsepower Needed for Rotary Pump?

[denniskeating]

Hello,
I've been collecting parts for the last two months for my Brewtus, to direct plumb it and also switch to an external Procon rotary pump and electric motor.
So far, I understand that a 1/4 hp, 1/3 hp, and 1/2 hp motor would do the job.Although for home use only, I am not concerned about the price difference between horsepowers.
This setup will involve extending the wire harness from the vibe pump inside the machine about six feet to the external pump/motor.I think this is powered thru my "controller", and wonder if the new motors horsepower will "tax" the amps required for the stock vibe pump?
What horsepower motor would be the best choice?(I would lean towards the 1/2 hp)
The pump is a Procon series two, 60 gpm,set at 130 psi., and all lines are 3/8"ID.
Thanks, Dennis

[lino]

Hey Dennis,

I've been running a rotary on my machine (home made) for the last several weeks. I'm using a 1/3 horse motor, but only because there happened to be one in my garage. If I had to buy one, it would have been the smallest available.

As you've noted standard US motors with the carbonator pump mount (the type that procons use) are available in 1/4 - 1/2 HP. If you go thru an espresso parts source, you can get an Italian made motor that are available in other sizes. I dunno how they are rated, but some of them are significantly smaller -- the one in the Bricoletta, for instance.

In terms of what you need, I'd have to say, very little. 1/4 HP would likely be more than enough.

Regarding the switch, mine was rated at 15A (but I chose it). I don't know how the Brewtus switches the vibe, but I suspect that it is with a sufficiently heavy duty switch to run the rotary.

Both Sean and Abe have converted to rotary on the Brewtus, perhaps they can weigh in on the switch?

I saw the motor that Abe is using on his pump, and if memory serves, it's the larger of the two(?) Italian motors.

Hope that helps a little...

ciao

lino

[Abe Carmeli]

Hey Dennis,

Both Sean and Abe have converted to rotary on the Brewtus, perhaps they can weigh in on the switch?

I changed my switch to a 20amp. The original that came with the Brewtus was already fried when I did the rotary conversion.

I saw the motor that Abe is using on his pump, and if memory serves, it's the larger of the two(?) Italian motors.

Mine is a Procon pump with a 1/5 HP motor. Plenty of power for a home espresso machine, and as quiet as a church mouse. I discovered that raising the line pressure with a booster pump actually reduces the pump's noise. I put an adjustable Watts pressure regulator on the connection to the pump, and I can now preinfuse using the middle lever position. Preinfusion pressure can be adjusted using the regulator, which gives me another brew variable to play with. Will there ever be an end to this game?

P.S. Lino, is the F.B.I. on your ass? Where've you been hiding for so long?

[denniskeating]

Thanks, Lino,
I have been waiting for Procon to ship me a pump and 1/2 hp GE motor since Nov 16th!
They finally shipped the pump only this week, leaving me to shop for a motor and clamp.
I will probably choose smaller than 1/2 hp. I should check into an Italian motor? OK. I was thinking a smart place to buy from would be Graingers (GE brand)
Dennis

[denniskeating]

Hi Abe,
Gee, did you come thru Denver on your birthday? Good snow this year.
My house line pressure is 60 psi. After water filters,I installed a Watts beverage pressure regulator (0-50 lbs) and gage. I figured setting this to 20 lbs psi. Then into my pump, and out to the machine.Will that enable preinfusion at the middle lever position without the pump running?
Also, I thought the relay for actuating the motor was built into the control box, not the main power switch.
Oh yeah, what was your impression of the Versalab Packer?
Dennis

[Abe Carmeli]

Hi Abe,
Gee, did you come thru Denver on your birthday? Good snow this year.

Oh yes, I did. No snow to be seen in Denver, but Winter Park was packed powder. I carved the slopes for 2 days, half a day in Sulphur Springs, and then Versalab.

My house line pressure is 60 psi. After water filters,I installed a Watts beverage pressure regulator (0-50 lbs) and gage. I figured setting this to 20 lbs psi. Then into my pump, and out to the machine.Will that enable preinfusion at the middle lever position without the pump running?

20 PSI will do pre-infusion in the middle position, though it may take about 9-10 seconds to preinfuse. With such high line pressure you should experiment which pressure works best for you in preinfusion. I'm settled on 50 PSI now, which gives me about 6-7 seconds of preinfusion. But my whole setup was to allow me to change that pressure so I plan to play with that variable.

Also, I thought the relay for actuating the motor was built into the control box, not the main power switch.
Oh yeah, what was your impression of the Versalab Packer?
Dennis

Yes, it is built into the control box. It is activated using the same wires which currently activate the vibe pump. There is a slight difference in the connection, and you should talk to Sean about hooking it up electrically.

Oh yeah, what was your impression of the Versalab Packer?

The packer is a convenient device and will ensure 30 lbs of level pressure. I'm not sure if it comes in any piston other than 58mm. If it doesn't, you won't be able to use a L/M double basket with it.

[barry]

The packer is a convenient device and will ensure 30 lbs of level pressure. I'm not sure if it comes in any piston other than 58mm. If it doesn't, you won't be able to use a L/M double basket with it.

why not?

[Abe Carmeli]

why not?

Unless you updose it, the L/M basket requires a 57mm piston.

[barry]

Unless you updose it, the L/M basket requires a 57mm piston.

hmmm... i've always considered the 'waist' to be the proper dose in a LM double, and using a 58mm tamper is a quick way to verify that there's enough coffee in there. too much more and the pf can't be locked in the group.


--barry "maybe 'normal' to me is 'updose' to you?"

[Abe Carmeli]

hmmm... i've always considered the 'waist' to be the proper dose in a LM double, and using a 58mm tamper is a quick way to verify that there's enough coffee in there. too much more and the pf can't be locked in the group.


--barry "maybe 'normal' to me is 'updose' to you?"

Yes, I know professionals frequently fill it above the groove, I rarely do it. It usually ends up as 18-19.5 grams. Most of my shots are 16-17 grams. As a side note, TerryZ and others list the 57 mm piston as the one fitting the L/M double. If you dose Schomer style, that is at or below the groove, the 58 mm will be too big.

[lino]

P.S. Lino, is the F.B.I. on your ass? Where've you been hiding for so long?

Hey Abe,

I wish it was something as "sexy" as being chased by the FBI. I've been changing way too many diapers and mashing too much babyfood to be interesting to the FBI (heh, well at least that's the case because it's my baby, not someone elses...)

Actually I've been trying to be more constructive with my free time, and therefore surf less... It's been hard to do...



And back on topic:

I've been running my procon out of a bottle for the last month, I think it's time to plumb it in. So they are quieter when they are creating less of a pressure jump? That'll be nice, because mine's a little louder than I'd like.

Do you remember the model of the Watts regulator you used? Would you recommend that?

ciao

lino

[Abe Carmeli]

I've been running my procon out of a bottle for the last month, I think it's time to plumb it in. So they are quieter when they are creating less of a pressure jump?

It has been the case in my experience. The pressure regulator you use will be part of the noise reduction, as well as line pressure. The cheap ones make it louder, the more robust reduce it. Here is the one I used:

Watts adjustable pressure regulator

I highly recommend it. Keep in mind that you want your line pressure to be more than 2 bars. If you have it lower than that, you don't need a regulator. I use a booster pump to bring line pressure to 70-90 psi and use the pressure regulator to bring it down to 55 psi. As quiet as an electric razor, and rock steady brew pressure. Having 55 psi line pressure, I can use the middle lever position to preinfuse.

[denniskeating]

Hello,
I finally got all the parts together for plumbing in my Brewtus, and finished the job tonight, except I don't seem to have hardly any pressure .
I put on the p/f pressure gage, turned the needle valve closed on it , and when the pump runs, after several seconds it only shows 1 bar pressure.
I have the pressure regulator set to 25 psi.
Water flows from the brewhead when I run the pump, just not much pressure.
I tried adjusting the bypass screw in and out, but it didn't change the low pressure reading on the gage.

any Ideas?
Thanks, Dennis

[stinkyjones]

If you have it lower than that, you don't need a regulator. I use a booster pump to bring line pressure to 70-90 psi and use the pressure regulator to bring it down to 55 psi.

Hi Abe--can you elaborate on this a bit? Is this a whole house booster pump? I recently moved to an older house that has low pressure in some places. I'd like to solve the problem without ripping out all of the pipes and installing copper.

Regards,
--Scott

[Abe Carmeli]

Hello,
I finally got all the parts together for plumbing in my Brewtus, and finished the job tonight, except I don't seem to have hardly any pressure .
I tried adjusting the bypass screw in and out, but it didnt change the low pressure reading on the gage.

any Ideas?
Thanks, Dennis

Dennis,

The screw you need to adjust is the one on the pump, not the pressure regulator. That controls the pump's output pressure.

[Abe Carmeli]

Hi Abe--can you elaborate on this a bit? Is this a whole house booster pump? I recently moved to an older house that has low pressure in some places. I'd like to solve the problem without ripping out all of the pipes and installing copper.

Regards,
--Scott

Scott,

Why Stinkyjones? And to your question, the booster pump is placed between your water line and the espresso machine pump. It does not raise pressure in the entire house but only line pressure on the tube from your waterline to your espresso machine pump. You can get the Shurflo booster I got, but you must have the pressure regulator I posted to go with it. Shurflo Mini Booster Pump. You want to get the 90 psi model (model # 824-002).

[stinkyjones]

Why Stinkyjones? And to your question, the booster pump is placed between your water line and the espresso machine pump. It does not raise pressure in the entire house but only line pressure on the tube from your waterline to your espresso machine pump. You can get the Shurflo booster I got, but you must have the pressure regulator I posted to go with it. Shurflo Mini Booster Pump. You want to get the 90 psi model (model # 824-002).

Abe:
Thanks for the response.

Stinkyjones is my dog's nickname from way back--i can typically always count on stinkyjones being available as a username . . .

Anyhow, I have a Wega Atlas 1GR EVD with an inline tank water softener followed by a filter, and the watts regulator/gauge between the machine and the filter. I noticed that my machine was a bit quieter in the old place, so after reading this post i thought it must be due to the pressure drop. I'd like to solve the problem house-wide, though. Curious: does the booster detect water flow, then kick in?

EDIT: I'm thinking something like this would solve my problem: Booster Pump.

--Scott

[Abe Carmeli]

Abe:
Curious: does the booster detect water flow, then kick in?

--Scott

It has an accumulator tank attached to it and it detects line pressure between the booster pump and the pressure regulator on the espresso machine. When it drops below a threshold, the pump kicks in.