How much coffee in the portafilter basket?

[russell]

I have had good luck with my Eliane overdosing the double basket with 27 g of coffee (6.5 above true zero on the Rocky). But lately I've been getting some blow-throughs with watery extractions. On the Coffee Geek forum, one piece of advice was not to dose so much--leave space for water above the puck. That contradicts a recent post on this site that said fill as full as you can provided the PF screws in.

So the question is what is the range for a double PF basket (like the ridgeless basket or the stock double Rancillio or Quickmill or Isomac)? For the triple?

I suspect my problem is tamp technique and not drying the basket. I'll keep experimenting.

Russell

[malachi]

27g?!?
What basket are you using?
If you're using a stock LA Marzocco double you might have exceeded even Paul Bassett's dosing!

The amount really depends upon:
- what coffee you're using,
- what your desired flavour profile is,
- what basket you're using,
- what machine you're using.

[ThaRiddla]

27 in a double basket?

is that physically possible?

[russell]

I have gotten 29 grams (measured on a postal scale) in the stock double basket that came with the Quickmill Eliane. Grind was 6.5 above true zero on the Rocky. Maybe I tamp REALLY HARD (!?) It's never stalled the machine and there's never been a problem getting the PF on the grouphead. Sometimes it just starts dripping then oozing, then a nice flow of about 1.8 oz. with tiger striping, etc. Other times, a breakthrough with a rapid flow and early blonding. I still suspect the problem is not drying the basket before putting in the coffeee. I use a modified Rocky doserless grinder putting letting the coffee fall into a small plastic cup whose diameter is about the same as the basket (cup capacity is about about 60 cc--came in a can of protein powder) then try to carefully pour and level this into the PF basket which fills to the top and then a little more. The tamping brings the level about 3 mm below the top of the basket. Everything looks smooth and level when I put the PF in the machine. One thing I don't down is tap the PF to get all the loose coffee off the sides--I have thought this might disturb the pack puck.

Russell

[shadowfax]

have you verified this scale's accuracy with other scales? that really is 30-40% more than most of us are cramming into doubles. do you have a "7 gram" volumetric coffee scoop? try scooping and grinding 4 scoops with that and fitting them into your double basket. If you can get close, I'll believe your scale is accurate, but I have tamped pretty stinking hard and still have trouble fitting 3.5 scoops into a triple basket...

[russell]

Let me apologize for a major error: I've been using the same weighing procedure for so long that I forgot that I always weigh with the little plastic basket full and the basket weighs 11 grams!! So my 29 grams = 18 grams of coffee, 28 (often used) = 17 grams, and 27 (also often used)= 16 grams.
So overfilling is clearly not the cause of the gushers.

Russell

[malachi]

ahhh...
much better

while it is possible that not drying the basket could contribute, my guess is that your distribution and the preservation of that distribution is perhaps the more likely culprit.

could you describe your methodology for building a shot to us?

[russell]

Rocky set to 7.5 over true zero. Newly arrived Black Cat roasted beans used. About 60 grams ground into plastic storage container. 60 cc scoop from protein power can weighed on postal scale: 11 grams. Basket filled until total weight is 28 grams. PF removed, dried, then held over sink while coffee is sloowly poured in with tamping and spreading a couple of times to make sure distribution is even. (Flat bottom of scoop ios about same diameter as basket.) PF moved to wood board. Reg Barbe tamper placed straight down, force applied (40 lbs?) and rotated clockwise 180 degrees then pressure lighted for further 180. PF examined--surface looks smooth and even. Put in machine and extracted for a timed 27 seconds. Tasted very good, no apparent breakthrough. But there was an imprint of the central screen screw that indicates that 17 grams may have been a bit too much for the basket.
Repetition will test whether I've solved the problem.
This was part of a Silvia versus Eliane test. I'll post the results on the tips & techniques forum (or whatever the first forum is called).

Russell
olde basket

[malachi]

that sounds very complicated.

have you ever tried just grinding and dosing into the basket (in the portafilter, after drying) until you have a heaping pile, then distributing the coffee (aussie rules, schomer, stockfleths or some combo thereof) and tamping? it's easier and far less complex. and with increased complexity comes increased potential for error.

personally... i would worry FAR less about weight and far more about even density of coffee in the basket.

example:

1) turn on grinder
2) remove portafilter from group, wipe dry
3) turn off grinder
4) dose until you have a heaping pile in the basket (turn on the grinder and grind some more if you need to)
5) tap the portafilter twice against the grinder fork
6) dose some more coffee until you (again) have a heaping pile above the rim
7) using your finger, distribute the coffee in the basket while pressing down (schomer NSEW or stockfleths rotational)
8) wipe any remaining coffee into your knockbox
9) tamp straight down with 15 lbs to preserve distribution (do not rotate under pressure)
10) wipe or lightly knock coffee off lip
11) tamp straight down with 30+ lbs of pressure (do not rotate tamper with pressure)
12) polish with no pressure
13) extract

finally.. if you continue to have extraction problems, the naked portafilter is an excellent diagnosis tool.

[russell]

Here's one reason for my method. I have modified the Rocky so the lower switch is hand-off on/off and removed the screws from the plastic spout. The 60 cc plastic cups fits between the fork and the spout. I run the grinder, hands off, letting the premeasured coffee go into the cup which is just sitting on the fork. When the sound indicates it's done, I turn off the grinder and dig the remaining coffee out from inside with a chopstick. (The spout is attached with a piece of duct tape and hinges up out of the way so I can dig in with the chopstick and get the remaining coffee out in a couple of seconds. While the grinding is going on I usually pull 1/2 oz. of water through the PF.

Only after the ground coffee is all in the plastic cup do I remove and dry the PF (drying is the change from before). I then pour the coffee into the PF taking care to spread it out, tamp and return the PF to the group head and pull the shot.

The reason I like this method is that 1) the grinding operating is virtually hands free 2) the time the PF is out of the grouphead is minimized. Earlier testing indicated that the time the PF is out of the grouphead is a major factor affecting the temperature of the brew water. I would find it more cumbersome to hold the PF under the spout, distribute it evenly, and remove the coffee left behind in the grinder than doing what I do.

Russell

[shadowfax]

Well, do what you want, but consider that transferring coffee grounds around from container to container can compress the beans irregularly, causing clumping and/or channeling during brewing. If you don't have a naked portafilter, you really ought to get your hands on one to see if your method works. Your problem with random gushers at the same grind setting and tamp method strongly suggest channeling related to wide variances in the unevenness of distribution...

[russell]

Since I'm drying the basket, I've had no problem. But I've only run a few shots. I don't think any thing is getting compressed in the single transfer, but if the gushing problems return, I try grinding directly into the basket.
Russell

[Tsiros]

is that physically possible?

Yes, it is. Grind fine enough and, not just tamp but, stomp on it... If the question you wanted to ask is "should we even try to use that much?" well... you're the grandmaster, you already know the answer.

[cannonfodder]

I have two HX machines and they both prefer different dose sizes. My Isomac, using a stock LM basket works best with about 17g, depend on the blend. My Faema, with a ridgless LM will take 17g with ease, but works best with 14-15g in the basket, depending on blend. The Faema works better with more headspace. If I put too much in the basket, I get uneven extractions even though the puck does not touch the shower screen.

Having a slight imprint of the screen after the shot is not necessarily a bad thing. The puck will swell after the extraction from water absorption. Both of my machines do that. As long as the puck does not grind against the shower screen when you lock it in you should be fine. Try a little less, try a little more, and let taste be your guide.

Sometimes the simplest technique is the best, don't make it to complicated.

[LeoZ]

example:

1) turn on grinder
2) remove portafilter from group, wipe dry
3) turn off grinder
4) dose until you have a heaping pile in the basket (turn on the grinder and grind some more if you need to)
5) tap the portafilter twice against the grinder fork
6) dose some more coffee until you (again) have a heaping pile above the rim
7) using your finger, distribute the coffee in the basket while pressing down (schomer NSEW or stockfleths rotational)
wipe any remaining coffee into your knockbox
9) tamp straight down with 15 lbs to preserve distribution (do not rotate under pressure)
10) wipe or lightly knock coffee off lip
11) tamp straight down with 30+ lbs of pressure (do not rotate tamper with pressure)
12) polish with no pressure
13) extract

this is almost exactly what ive been doing, but instead of a tap with the tamper to the basket, i give the 15lb(most of the time even lighter) tamp, then wipe the edges clean, then tamp 30lbs.

i dont weigh my beans, but one tightly packed basket of whole beans gives me enough to do exactly this after grinding.