How long do you allow your espresso to sit before adding milk?

[RegalPlatypus]

As much as I hate to admit it, I work at Starbucks. We're given a strict 10 second limit as to how long a shot can sit without being mixed with milk before it goes bad from temperature loss and oxidation. A number of coffee shops I've been to don't seem to follow this though... In fact, at the coffee shop I went to today the shot had turned black before they added the milk.

How long do you allow your shots to sit?

[Beezer]

Good question.

I'm ashamed to say that my shots probably sit close to a minute before I pour the milk. I have an HX machine, so I could theoretically steam and pull shots at the same time, which would reduce the delay between pulling the shot and pouring the milk to a minimum. However, I like to watch the shot as it pours and cut it off when it goes blonde, so I wait until after the shot finishes before steaming. By the time I'm done steaming, 30 seconds to minute have gone by. Still, since I'm using good, fresh beans, the crema lingers long enough to give good results.

[fredfal]

I'm limited by my steam power and my routine. I've got the Brewtus II with the stock steam tip and while it makes it easy to make microfoam, if I'm making a latte, it usually takes about 40 seconds to steam the milk.

I steam and pull the shot at the same time, but usually I'll start the shot brewing, then start steaming a few seconds later (also keeps the steam boiler from kicking in during the shot). I end up with the shot sitting 15-20 seconds when making a latte, just a couple seconds when making a capp, and usually not at all when making a macchiato.

For me, because of steam power, it's dependent on the volume of milk.

[HB]

How long do you allow your shots to sit?

I start the steaming about midway through the extraction once I'm certain it's progressing smoothly. With the time for swirling and thunking, it's probably approaching a full minute from the time the extraction started. I've tried steaming before the extraction a few times, but the result was an undesirable drop in the drink temperature.

[APalmer]

By saying that the "shot turned black," do you mean the crema had fully dissipated? That's not good. What was going on in the meantime while it sat? I think, however, to say that the shot is bad within 10 seconds is a bit overboard. Certainly, the integrity of the crema and the temperature diminish with time, but it's still drinkable after 10 seconds. It sounds more like Starbucks is simply pushing you to get the drinks made as fast as possible. Time is money. If I am wrong, then most of the espresso in barista competitions is bad. Watch a video and count how many seconds pass from the introduction of milk. Zacharyzachary.com has videos of the 2007 World Championships. Shots sit while the other shots are being pulled. Shots sit while milk is being steamed. Shots sit. My point: time kills espresso, but it doesn't work that fast. Not saying to ignore what you're being told to do, but no need to worry if a shot happens to sit for longer than 10 seconds.

[cannonfodder]

I usually start my steaming around midpoint of the pull. It only takes 15 seconds to steam 4-5 ounces of milk so the shot and frothing are finished around the same time. I give the pitcher a swirl, thump, swirl and pour.

On another note, if your shot goes completely black (full crema dissipation) in 60 seconds, chances are the coffee is old or the shot was no good to begin with.

[RegalPlatypus]

By saying that the "shot turned black," do you mean the crema had fully dissipated?

No no, the crema was still present. You'll notice when you pull shots though (if you pull them into a transparent glass) that there's a very rapid color change in the espresso beneath the crema from a dark honey brown to black within a matter of seconds. It's this color change that Starbucks aims to avoid and of which I'm talking about above. It's my understanding that that color change from the honey brown to black represents chemical degradation with decreasing temperature and exposure to air.

I don't think it's simply *Bux trying to get us to push drinks out quicker because if we miss that 10 second mark, they want us to take the time to make it again. Actually, despite the quality of their espresso machines and most of their baristas, they do try pretty hard to put out a good product all things considered.

[PaulM]

Sometimes I try to risk pulling a second shot and then pour the milk in both but I have found that the crema on the first pull suffers a bit as it's standing. Most often, I pull a shot into a warmed cup and top it off w/ foam/milk almost immediately.

[Beezer]

"On another note, if your shot goes completely black (full crema dissipation) in 60 seconds, chances are the coffee is old or the shot was no good to begin with."

Exactly. Good espresso should have long-lasting crema. If it dissipates that much in 10 seconds, there's something else wrong. Of course, I've never seen really good, thick crema on a shot in Starbucks (or most other cafes for that matter), so maybe the 10 second rule makes sense for them. When your crema is thin and blonde to begin with, you need to make sure it doesn't sit any longer than it absolutely has to. But then again, no matter how fast you steam your milk, it's not going to fix the problem with the shot.

[zin1953]

I grind the coffee, fill the baskets, start the cooling flush as I steam the milk, start one double as I'm finishing the milk, start the second double as I'm pouring the first milk, and . . . voila!

OK, heresy I know, but . . . in the case of the first drink (my wife's latté), the Bodum glass is filled with milk first, and I pour the coffee through the foam -- it creates a "layered" effect one can see through the glass. The second drink (my cap) is espresso in the cup first, steamed milk on top.

Always tastes g-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-r-e-a-t!

Cheers,
Jason

[Fullsack]

I am probably a lone voice in this, I steam the milk and then pull the shot. A fresh shot is much more important to me than the condition of the milk.

[agongsue]

Fred,

Try the 2-hole steam tip for the Brewtus. I have a Brewtus I and had trouble getting a decent microfoam. When I got the 2-hole, things changed dramatically for the better. I tried the original tip again after using the 2-hole about 6 months later, and am completely spoiled; can't go back! Sebastian Little at Great Infusions in Santa Cruz, CA gave me some steaming tips and the microfoam is rocking! Best $10 spent. Try it!

Andre Gong-Sue

[zin1953]

I am probably a lone voice in this . . .

No; you and me, both.

[malachi]

Milk can wait for espresso.
Espresso cannot wait for milk.

[appa]

What I never understood is that if the shot is hotter than the milk
(which I think its supposed to be) isnt the milk lowering the temp
of the shot as bad as letting the shot sit to the same temp?

[roblumba]

James Hoffman won the title of World Barista Champion and he was the only one who let his espresso sit the longest. He pulled the shots, steamed the milk, brought the whole lot of it to the judges and proceeded to pour the cappuccino's table side, with latte art.

I was talking with Tim OConnor at Pacific Espresso and he was mentioning how, when they evaluate beans, they look for beans that will cool down well. Meaning, they let the shot cool and taste again to see how it behaves. If the taste changes from good to bad, then the beans are not so good.

So good beans should have lasting crema and the taste should hold up as it sits and cools.

I often stick a double shot of my Ecco Reserve in a shot glass, in the fridge and let it cool. Then I put it in milk with some vanilla syrup and take it with me to work for later in the afternoon. The taste is amazing cooled and in milk. Rich, chocolatey, delicious.

[Gregg K]

I don't work in a shop. And I don't follow rules. I experiment.

Having said that... I pour directly into already frothed milk. I don't like the idea of fiddling with latte art, so it works for me.

This way it actually hits the milk and the temp is stable immediately. And it seems to make for a more forgiving shot. But I could be full of it. There is no scientific anything to back up my procedure.

[HB]

Having said that... I pour directly into already frothed milk. I don't like the idea of fiddling with latte art, so it works for me.

Hmm-m, that wouldn't incorporate the milk and coffee. Isn't it kind of boring, flavor-wise? Taken to the extreme, it becomes a drink like those served at Jet Fuel.

[Gregg K]

I did it as a form of protection. It may be boring, but it has helped to lower my sink shot ratio. Jet fuel is pretty much kerosene, which is what prompted me to try pouring in this fashion in the first place.

After three years, one would think I would have a better handle on making espresso. I'm still learning. Maybe I'll even get to a point where I can make latte art. Right now the only latte art I've done has turned out like a negative photograph, what with the foam already in the cup.

I think slow learners make good inventors. Sometimes.

[roblumba]

I don't work in a shop. And I don't follow rules. I experiment.

Having said that... I pour directly into already frothed milk. I don't like the idea of fiddling with latte art, so it works for me.

This way it actually hits the milk and the temp is stable immediately. And it seems to make for a more forgiving shot. But I could be full of it. There is no scientific anything to back up my procedure.

Even if you don't get latte art out of it, at least the crema from the coffee mixes into the frothed milk to some degree. I would think that would taste better than just throwing the shot into already frothed milk, but I guess your taste buds will have to guide you on that. If the shot really does taste bad, then perhaps having it sit fully exposed in the foam will accentuate that fact. But I would think any good tasting shot would sit well in the foam.

If the foam / espresso is a little harsh, you can recover from this by sprinkling a little sugar on top of the foam and let it sit up there. It's like a sugar cookie.