How good can a pavoni shot get?

[pavman]

I realize this question will illicit subjective answers -- so true of so many queries, no? -- but I've just been reading the reviews posted here on the LM GS3 and the Mia, and they got me wondering, "just how good a shot do you think is possible from the Europiccola Millenium and its ancestry?"

Assuming you've got all the variables right: the coffee, grind, amt, tamp, brew pressure, temp, shot time... what else? I read the "Elektra/Pavoni in the hands of a Pro" post. Great. But I'd like to hear if anyone wants to chime in about potential quality of a shot from a pavoni lever machine in comparison with one of the high end marvels that keep some of us awake at night.

Am I comparing apples to Jupiter here, or can the pavoni in a best case scenario produce anything close to what the behemoths can? For the record, I love my pavoni.

[cannonfodder]

I have the Gaggia version (rebadged PV-16) and some of my best shots have come from that machine, some of my worst have also come from the same machine. That is based on my modest barista skills and comparing it to my Isomac Millennium and my two group Faema. The LM however is in an entirely different class.

If I had to spend the rest of my life only using the Pavoni, I would not mind it one bit. That is my go-to machine in a pinch or when I want to have one of those Zen moments, 'be one with the machine grasshopper'.

[Gatewood]

I don't think you can get the great gobs of gooey crema from a La Pavoni lever, but you can get some of the best tasting stuff out there. I do get crema; plenty of it. Just not like those shots that look like they are all crema. And I rarely get a nasty one any more. Although there are days....

[Paul L]

At the risk of being controversial, I have been somewhat persuaded away from my Pavoni on the grounds of its limitations. It can produce a really good shot by high street standards and for a short while I thought it much superior to my 6 months with a Gaggia. However, an acidity which my palate seems sensitive to was the recurring theme. I thought it was my choice of beans or home roasting but this has proven to be untrue as I have discovered using a different espresso machine.

So, 6 months ago I would have given it 4 to 6 out of 10 for consistency and I was pedantic about developing routines with it when I say this. I would have given it 8 out of 10 based on results. This has gone down over time and I would give it lowly 4 out of 10 for results based on my expanding coffee experience. Too mean? It's a personal thing of course but having now tried good cafes that forum members in the UK respect (rather than the fast food coffee stores we all struggle with) but more particularly after a few days with an Expobar Brewtus II, it has turned my references upside down and I have not yet oriented again. For my taste, I can't even compare the two on results, volume, crema, consistency and flavours.

I think success with a Pavoni comes if you're not as demanding as I guess some folk are (and I seem to be amongst them alas), careful choice of beans and sensitivity of your palate to acidity.

[cannonfodder]

To each his own, but I have pulled some pretty crema laden shots from my machine...

[srobinson]

You can get very good shots from it, but it depends on how long you are willing to work with it. You can do full crema pulls with it.

[Gatewood]

You can get very good shots from it, but it depends on how long you are willing to work with it. You can do full crema pulls with it.

I get good shots. I'm willing to spend as much time as I have left in this world working on it. But I don't get full crema pulls, and I want that in the worst way! So, what is missing? I'm pretty consistent in tamp and grind, and do switch beans around a bit (home roast), always fresh, and usually single origin. My biggest failure probably is my lack of strength, and there's no way I'm getting 40 lbs. pressure on the lever. I've choked it before, and when I do that, I get little spurts of water out of the connection from the lever to the boiler if I keep trying to force it. I suppose my lack of pressure is keeping the crema from being huge. It's good; just not full crema shots. I'll take any advice, and thank you for it!

[srobinson]

Well if you are choking it then you need to step your grind back. To me the greatest change was great coffee and good grinder. As a test order some of Caffe Fesca's Ambrosia...they will tell you when it peaks and it will give you some crema bombs. The next key is tamp and finding a grind setting that does not choke and allows a steady stream. With regards to the pull on the Pavoni, don't break the machine. I know exactly what you are talking about when you hear the hiss where the grouphead connects. Just make sure you get a straight downward pressure on it and get a good resistance but let the machine do the work. If you are fighting the machine them back the grind off. I pull by putting one hand on the portafilter for stability, and then the other hand will be close to my arm pit with the elbow in the air. Tuck that fist right under your arm and you can almost to the pull just with your body weight. If the machine is scooting, then you need to get a bit closer and ensure you are pulling straight down.

Give this a look and compare to how you are pulling.

[kbuzbee]

Well if you are choking it then you need to step your grind back. To me the greatest change was great coffee and good grinder. As a test order some of Caffe Fesca's Ambrosia...they will tell you when it peaks and it will give you some crema bombs. The next key is tamp and finding a grind setting that does not choke and allows a steady stream. With regards to the pull on the Pavoni, don't break the machine. I know exactly what you are talking about when you hear the hiss where the grouphead connects. Just make sure you get a straight downward pressure on it and get a good resistance but let the machine do the work. If you are fighting the machine them back the grind off. I pull by putting one hand on the portafilter for stability, and then the other hand will be close to my arm pit with the elbow in the air. Tuck that fist right under your arm and you can almost to the pull just with your body weight. If the machine is scooting, then you need to get a bit closer and ensure you are pulling straight down.

Give this a look and compare to how you are pulling.

Steve, your description is spot on. Nicely said. Grinding too finely is my biggest problem. I fight the urge to do that. But a coarse grind has to be pretty uniform. Any Zass will do a fine job (or many mega grinders as well, I'm sure) Grind is the biggest thing you simply HAVE to get right.

BTW - I will put my Europiccola up against ANYTHING out there. It is a demanding machine and things may have to be "more" correct to get those great shots. But in the end, I feel "I" made the shot. I like that.

Ken (rejuvenated from a week at the Outer Banks)

[Gatewood]

Thanks for the advice, Steve. I don't choke it very often. That doesn't seem to be the problem for me. I most often don't get enough pressure on the lever (and I have to hold it by the portafilter handle with my left hand, or it will tip over) and just a hair more tamp or tighter grind will choke. So, I haven't found that in between spot, I don't think. I'm not complaining; the shots are tastier than heck. I'd just like a bunch of crema on top, and I do get a respectable amount, but there's no way I'd post a picture of it. It's not that good. With the naked portafilter, everything looks pretty derned good. So, I think the tamp and distribution are OK.

I'll order some Ambrosia, although I roast my own and haven't gotten any preroasted in quite some time. Doesn't feel right, somehow.

[espressoperson]

Thanks for the advice, Steve. I don't choke it very often. That doesn't seem to be the problem for me. I most often don't get enough pressure on the lever (and I have to hold it by the portafilter handle with my left hand, or it will tip over) and just a hair more tamp or tighter grind will choke. So, I haven't found that in between spot, I don't think. I'm not complaining; the shots are tastier than heck. I'd just like a bunch of crema on top, and I do get a respectable amount, but there's no way I'd post a picture of it. It's not that good. With the naked portafilter, everything looks pretty derned good. So, I think the tamp and distribution are OK.

I'll order some Ambrosia, although I roast my own and haven't gotten any preroasted in quite some time. Doesn't feel right, somehow.

One factor not mentioned explicitly in this discussion is Distribution. Sure you need the right grind, the right dose, and a consistent tamp, but they are just the price of admission to play. Distribution is the key to hitting the jackpot. Whether you use Schomer, Stockfleths, Chicago chop, Weiss, etc., you need to ensure that you have a consistent distribution to allow you to generate the pressure that you need to pull exquisite shots without channeling or choking.

Have you ever seen the flow of espresso from the head of a Synesso Cyncra? IMO that is the kind of output you should be trying to achieve with your lever shot. And with anything short of perfect distribution you will fall short. Read all you can about distribution, and keep practicing until you can get to that point where it feels like it's going to stall but it just keeps pulling through the puck in slow motion. The feel is unmistakable, you will know when you have achieved it.

[srobinson]

Well with Gatewood in SC and kbuzbee visitin the NC coast and my Pavoni at my beach house in NC...we are going to have to plan a beach coffee jam. I also agree that distribution is critical as well. Get that Ambrosia and then we can walk through the steps. You have not mentioned what type of grinder you have.....assuming it is up to snuff.

[Gatewood]

I have a KitchenAid Proline grinder and have adjusted it according to the manual until the burrs were rubbing, and then backed off a tiny bit. I've been pleased with it so far. I realize it's no Versalab, but I'm no deep pockets, either. If it can choke the Pavoni, shouldn't it be able to grind fine enough? It seems to be a very even grind. As for distribution, I tried the Weiss, the Chicago Chop, and have stuck with the Stockfleths move, as I seem to be more consistent with it. I was assuming that since the nekkid portafilter pulls are even and look good, that my distribution is OK. Maybe I'm off on that? I thought that was what the nekkid was trying to show me. I'm gonna keep trying, anyhow. I've ordered some Ambrosia (told them I heard about it from you, Steve), and I'll be trying it out as soon as it's ready. Our side of the country has more espresso folks than I ever realized until I started coming to this forum. I'm proud of us!

[kbuzbee]

... kbuzbee visitin the NC coast and my Pavoni at my beach house in NC...we are going to have to plan a beach coffee jam.

Well, I have to admit, for the trip I just took my Zass Turkish mill and a cezve. Switching to Turkish for a week was a lot of fun, but nice to be home to the La Pavoni.

Ken

[Gatewood]

Just received my Ambrosia from Caffe Fresco. I have no clue as to the roasting date, and am much surprised by this. There is no mark on the package anywhere, and all I know is that it was mailed on the 31st. If it was roasted on that day, I'm already three days out of the roaster, but I don't know for sure. Am I missing something? Is there some secret mark I should be seeing? Thanks,
Gatewood

[bill]

Hi Gatewood,
I believe that they 'roast and post' on the same day, either Monday, Wednesday, or Friday. So it should have been roasted Wednesday. Hope this helps! I just ordered some today and mine should be roasted Monday. We can compare drinks next week!

[Gatewood]

Thanks, Bill; that's just what I was looking for.

[bobcraige]

From Caffe Fresco's standard order acknowledgement:

Hi, Thanks For The Order! Fresco is now expeditiously roasting online orders three days a week ~ Monday, Wednesday & Friday. Orders placed near a Holiday may require more time to process. The postmark will usually be the date-of-roast! For a better understanding of my product please have a read of the following.

Your coffee is truly artisan-roasted, blended, bagged & shipped to order by one person. To fully enjoy your coffee a read of the website's Roast Maturation, Bean Storage & Brew Tips is recommended. Generally, 3 days of rest after roast is required, & the prime flavour days are 5 thru 14 after roast.

Sincerely, Tony Sciandra (Proprietor http://www.caffefresco.us)

[Gatewood]

OK, have ambrosia, am doing all that was suggested, but now I'm thinking my grinder is not doing its job. No more crema on the Ambrosia than on my home roasts, and I'm no longer able to choke the machine. So, I took my grinder apart, readjusted the burrs until touching, backed off a hair, and still not getting enough resistance. Looks like grinder upgrade-itis. I've loved this grinder; it's not messy, the grounds fall straight down, and it's solid as a rock. I'll fool with it a bit more tomorrow, but help? Do I need a new grinder? I feel as if my no longer being able to choke the machine means I'm not able to get a fine enough grind. I know, I know, I shouldn't choke it. But I'm not getting anywhere near 30 lbs pressure. Probably not even 10. I'm aiming to choke, hoping to get more resistance just to see if I can. I'm jumping on the tamper, but like I said, I'm puny. And old. And discouraged.

[kbuzbee]

Well, I don't "know" your grinder so I hate to rush to judgement but it was my first thought. Does it do a continuous adjust or "stepped"? I ask because I adjust my Zass between every shot. A little more, a little less..... back and forth.... If I couldn't do that I couldn't make a decent espresso from my LaPa. To me, there isn't one grind that is right, it's a zone you need full access to.

Maybe you could borrow a grinder for a couple days to test the hypothesis??

Ken