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How Autofill Degrades Shot Temperature Stability

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Link to "How Autofill Degrades Shot Temperature Stability"by Ken Fox on Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:45 pm

I decided to waste a couple more days repeating the shot temperature thermometry on my two PID-modified Cimbali Juniors last week. A new test I devised was designed to measure shot temperatures delivered in the face of variable intervals in-between shots, with frothing mixed in. I did not do exactly the same test on both machines but it was pretty obvious that my almost 11-year old pourover Vibe Junior was much more temperature stable during this type of test than was my current vintage Rotary D1 Junior. I have found from earlier testing that the rotary machine "recovers" faster than does the vibe machine, and hence the inter-shot interval is 30 seconds longer on the vibe than the rotary. Here are representative shot temperature curves, with legends, that show what I mean:

On the old Vibe:

Image


On the Rotary:

Image


Granted, the two machines are different, but they share identically sized boilers, identical groups, and identical heat exchangers. Both were PID'd in essentially the same manner. Why the difference? the only obvious difference that should matter for shot temperature stability is boiler AUTOFILL, present in the plumbed-in rotary but absent in the vibe machine, whose boiler must be manually refilled with the aid of a sightglass. Autofill tends to be sensitive and anyone who owns a machine with autofill knows that the autofill kicks in at unpredictable times. Anything that diminishes boiler fill (like frothing, or using boiler water for drinks) will increase autofill activity.

I discussed these findings initially with Jim Schulman, who agreed that the autofill was the likely culprit in making the plumbed in rotary machine less temperature stable on a complex shot series that included frothing. We discussed possible ways to defeat this such as having a switch one would use to defeat the autofill normally but allow the autofill to work once daily, or however often one desired or when one chose (i.e. not when making espresso drinks). The risk of that of course is that you forget to turn the autofill on again so the element eventually burns out when you empty out the boiler. Of course there are other options such as putting in on a timer, something Jim also brought up.

I had a conversation with Michael Teahan in Los Angeles today, who as always is a fount of espresso knowledge. Rather than using an on-off switch, Michael suggested using a relay to make sure the autofill doesn't actuate DURING A SHOT, but functions otherwise. He mentioned additional options for making this sort of thing work, such as slowing down the inflow into the boiler from the autofill, but the relay seemed the easiest to impliment.

Before actually trying to impliment this modification, however, I thought it would be worthwhile to repeat the shot series with the autofill bypassed. Here is a picture of the autofill circuit in my machine, on the left side of the boiler:

Image


The autofill probe (as can be seen) is insulated in a sleeve and sticks into the boiler where it contacts boiler water; when it does, it completes a circuit with ground, and turns off the autofill as it senses the correct level. Here is how I defeated it, temporarily for purposes of conducting this experiment:

Image


The temporary wire bridges the circuit and shuts off the autofill. This was confirmed by draining 8 oz of boiler water out and seeing that the boiler autofill did not actuate. I then reversed the change (removed the wire), obviously with the machine unplugged, then replugged in the machine and the autofill immediately acutated for about 15 or 20 seconds to refill the boiler.

With the autofill disabled, I repeated the shot series exactly as before. Here are the new shot curves:

Image


As you can see, the shot temperature curves are now more tightly grouped, with a reduction in both the maximum and minimum shot temperatures. I haven't done any mathematical evaluation of these data, but visually it appears to me that the variability in shot temperature has been reduced by at least a third.

What remains to be determined is what is the best way to get this level of improvement in actual shot temperatures without risking burning out the element or causing a housefire :P My impression is that a simple relay, powered by the input solenoid wires (as suggested by Michael Teahan) is the right approach, however I'll have to install one and test again to confirm that this very simple modification in fact has the desired result.

ken
p.s.: This is crossposted on alt.coffee; please do not respond in both threads
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Link to "How Autofill Degrades Shot Temperature Stability"by miKe mcKoffee on Wed Jul 12, 2006 12:57 am

If I understand you correctly your autofill 'can' kick in during a shot? No, that would not seem good for the shot. I'm 99% certain that has never happened during a shot pull on my rotary Bric'. Including when pulling and steaming concurrenlty. After a shot and IIRC during steaming yes, but I don't recall it ever happening during a shot. I'll run a long series of back to back simulated shots (w/thermofilter so at shot flow rate) to verify.
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Link to "How Autofill Degrades Shot Temperature Stability"by Ken Fox on Wed Jul 12, 2006 1:25 am

miKe mcKoffee wrote:If I understand you correctly your autofill 'can' kick in during a shot? No, that would not seem good for the shot. I'm 99% certain that has never happened during a shot pull on my rotary Bric'. Including when pulling and steaming concurrenlty. After a shot and IIRC during steaming yes, but I don't recall it ever happening during a shot. I'll run a long series of back to back simulated shots (w/thermofilter so at shot flow rate) to verify.


From my conversation with Michael Teahan, there are machines that have been made whose electronics prevent the boiler from autofilling during a shot; it is certainly possible that your machine is one of those. When a shot is actually being pulled, there would be no way to know whether the boiler was autofilling since you can't see it and the pump is going to make it's noises whether it is making a shot, filling the boiler, or both. Depending on the amount of water that can move into the boiler per unit time and the size of the boiler plus location of the probe, it could be that your autofill cycles are short enough that you'd have no clue of this happening simultaneous with a shot unless the boiler fill overlapped the end of the shot.

There is more than one way that boiler autofill can perturb shot temperature; it could occur during a shot, when it would be difficult for the element to overcome, or it could occur shortly before the next shot having essentially the same effect. Putting a simple relay on the autofill circuit would prevent the former problem but not the latter. Making the autofill work manually, with a switch, would prevent both problems but risks damage. Putting the autofill circuit on a timer, if the operator doesn't use boiler water for drinks and if the operator isn't frothing constantly, could allow programming of the autofill to have it kick in at times when the machine isn't apt to be making drinks.

What I did in my little test was to disable the autofill completely. That doesn't tell us whether the improvement was due simply to no autofill actuation during shots, or from the absence of autofill shortly before shots being made; it only implies that without autofill the machine is more temperature stable on a shot series like this. Since the machine could easily figure out if you were making a shot, but can't figure out when you are going to make your next shot, this difference is potentially critical in designing a fix.

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Link to "How Autofill Degrades Shot Temperature Stability"by miKe mcKoffee on Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:04 am

Just ran series of 25-30 simulated lattes ie; pulling a double concurrently steaming 6oz continuing steaming 5-10 sec after shot completed. Autofill kicked in 4 times during the series, each time after shot completed and after completing steaming. Three times right after stopped steaming but well before flash, flush & go so shot temp ok with a slight pause in rhythm, once just as I started flash so waited for boiler to come back up to pressure and started flash, flush & go again. (didn't time the wait but way less than a minute)

I could tell if the Bricoletta autofilling during the shot, different sound than when pulling a shot. Plus watched the boiler gauge which of course takes a dive during autofill. Didn't happen I'm 99.999% certain.

Not conclusive that the Bric' won't autofill during a shot, but good enough for me not to be concerned!

Yes, autofill kicking in just before flash flush&go screwed up timing, had to wait and start flash over.

What was surprising/amazing to me was that while I didn't time the wait between each shot/steaming, all I did was dump the 20oz pitcher, refill ~6oz tap cold water for simulated steaming, remove the thermofilter, flash flush & go. All done without foot movement needed since Bric's right by the sink. No shot temp drop across the series, very short flash before flush&go though. I expected shot temps to drop off because previous shot only series temp testing suggested I needed ~35sec after post shot grouphead flush & wiggle or temps dropped off. Ah, that's the difference. Wasn't doing a post shot flush & wiggle so not drawing new mains cold water into HX as fast so recovery virtually instantaneous combined with steaming keep the 1900w heater element on more. (Boiler ceramic blanket insulated FWIW)
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Link to "How Autofill Degrades Shot Temperature Stability"by Ken Fox on Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:16 am

miKe mcKoffee wrote:Just ran series of 25-30 simulated lattes ie; pulling a double concurrently steaming 6oz continuing steaming 5-10 sec after shot completed. Autofill kicked in 4 times during the series, each time after shot completed and after completing steaming. Three times right after stopped steaming but well before flash, flush & go so shot temp ok with a slight pause in rhythm, once just as I started flash so waited for boiler to come back up to pressure and started flash, flush & go again. (didn't time the wait but way less than a minute)

I could tell if the Bricoletta autofilling during the shot, different sound than when pulling a shot. Plus watched the boiler gauge which of course takes a dive during autofill. Didn't happen I'm 99.999% certain.

Not conclusive that the Bric' won't autofill during a shot, but good enough for me not to be concerned!

Yes, autofill kicking in just before flash flush&go screwed up timing, had to wait and start flash over.

What was surprising/amazing to me was that while I didn't time the wait between each shot/steaming, all I did was dump the 20oz pitcher, refill ~6oz tap cold water for simulated steaming, remove the thermofilter, flash flush & go. All done without foot movement needed since Bric's right by the sink. No shot temp drop across the series, very short flash before flush&go though. I expected shot temps to drop off because previous shot only series temp testing suggested I needed ~35sec after post shot grouphead flush & wiggle or temps dropped off. Ah, that's the difference. Wasn't doing a post shot flush & wiggle so not drawing new mains cold water into HX as fast so recovery virtually instantaneous combined with steaming keep the 1900w heater element on more. (Boiler ceramic blanket insulated FWIW)


I've used my Scace and dataloggers collecting hundreds of shot curves on both of my machines. One thing I have learned is that you need to actually collect all the data with a datalogger; simply looking at numbers as they flash by on a digital thermometer is highly misleading. Many times I've done shot series where I thought the curves would be stable and in fact they were not. The opposite has also occured many times.

There is no substitute for collecting the data and plotting it out, as big a PITA as that is.

ken
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Link to "How Autofill Degrades Shot Temperature Stability"by houdina on Wed Jul 12, 2006 9:33 am

Does anyone know how having the boiler feed turn on during a shot effects the water pressure on the puck. It would seem sure to cause some fluctuation in pressure, I wonder how much.
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Link to "How Autofill Degrades Shot Temperature Stability"by miKe mcKoffee on Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:15 am

Ken Fox wrote:I've used my Scace and dataloggers collecting hundreds of shot curves on both of my machines. One thing I have learned is that you need to actually collect all the data with a datalogger; simply looking at numbers as they flash by on a digital thermometer is highly misleading. Many times I've done shot series where I thought the curves would be stable and in fact they were not. The opposite has also occured many times.

Fluke I'm using with the Thermofilter doesn't have data logging capabilities. As far as the autofill kicking in during my shot steaming test series I don't need shot data logging to know if autofill engaging while pulling a shot. My eyes and ears work just fine watching the boiler gauge and listening to the Bric'.

There is no substitute for collecting the data and plotting it out, as big a PITA as that is.

ken

Except for taste. Obviously not tasting Thermofilter shots. But since shots taste excellent to me, and as recently as a couple weeks ago hosted a goodly group of home roasting espresso fiends all raving on shots and caps pulled from the Bric' I'm not too worried about my lack of ability to plot graphs of what we're tasting.
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Link to "How Autofill Degrades Shot Temperature Stability"by cannonfodder on Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:47 am

When I rebuilt my Faema, I removed the auto fill solenoid (actually, it was missing) and used the supply line to mount a brew pressure gauge on the machine, and capped the boiler auto fill input. I attached a 220v orange light to the front of the machine and wired it into the solenoid hookup on the level box.
Image

I have a sight glass which I check every time I turn on the machine, but if the boiler gets low, the wife occasionally uses the water tap to make hot chocolate, the level box trips the orange 'idiot light' right beside the brew button. Then she (or I) just pushes the manual fill button until the light goes out. Works wonderfully, obviously you have to have a plumbed in machine with line pressure greater than your normal boiler pressure for the fill to work. No middle of shot auto fill, or mid steam fill.
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Link to "How Autofill Degrades Shot Temperature Stability"by cannonfodder on Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:51 am

houdina wrote:Does anyone know how having the boiler feed turn on during a shot effects the water pressure on the puck. It would seem sure to cause some fluctuation in pressure, I wonder how much.
Gregg


On a vibe pump, it kills your brew pressure. On my Isomac I loose almost half pressure, on a rotary, it is usually minimal.
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Link to "How Autofill Degrades Shot Temperature Stability"by Ken Fox on Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:47 am

miKe mcKoffee wrote:Except for taste. Obviously not tasting Thermofilter shots. But since shots taste excellent to me, and as recently as a couple weeks ago hosted a goodly group of home roasting espresso fiends all raving on shots and caps pulled from the Bric' I'm not too worried about my lack of ability to plot graphs of what we're tasting.


This is a technical thread; there is a reason that I posted it here rather than on the "Coffees" forum. I try to divorce my opinion about the importance of fine temperature management from my observations when I post this sort of material, but for the record, I don't think that the great majority of people can taste fine temperature differences in espresso brew temperatures. 2 or 3 degrees F; probably; 0.3 degrees F; I doubt it.

So the fact that you could make what you consider to be a lot of good drinks for a lot of people with your current equipment is irrelevant to what I posted.

My post is about the impact of boiler autofill on fine temperature management. In order to evaluate this, one needs to be able to monitor actual shot temperatures, second by second. This does not mean looking at a digital thermometer, this means datalogging. Without a datalogger, you can't really prove or disprove what I've posted as it applies to your machine.

Once again, I'm not saying that I've concluded that you can taste differences related to these temperatures. What I've said is that IF such varying brew temperatures have an important impact on the shots produced, then it is important to know what those temperatures are. In order to know that, you need to use a datalogger.

As to skill in plotting graphs, $35 will buy you dpot, which will allow anyone with minimal effort to plot shot temperature or other curves. Do I think that this is important to your enjoyment of your espresso machine? I doubt it.

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Link to "How Autofill Degrades Shot Temperature Stability"by Ken Fox on Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:52 am

cannonfodder wrote:When I rebuilt my Faema, I removed the auto fill solenoid (actually, it was missing) and used the supply line to mount a brew pressure gauge on the machine, and capped the boiler auto fill input. I attached a 220v orange light to the front of the machine and wired it into the solenoid hookup on the level box.
image: http://www.home-barista.com/forums/userpix/80_machine5_1.jpg

I have a sight glass which I check every time I turn on the machine, but if the boiler gets low, the wife occasionally uses the water tap to make hot chocolate, the level box trips the orange 'idiot light' right beside the brew button. Then she (or I) just pushes the manual fill button until the light goes out. Works wonderfully, obviously you have to have a plumbed in machine with line pressure greater than your normal boiler pressure for the fill to work. No middle of shot auto fill, or mid steam fill.


This is a good solution but it does require active user intervention. I have no problem with that. I love sightglasses and their elimination in autofill machines has been entirely an economization move on the part of mfrs. With current autofill machines one has to take on faith that the system is working.

ken
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Link to "How Autofill Degrades Shot Temperature Stability"by miKe mcKoffee on Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:07 am

Ken Fox wrote:Once again, I'm not saying that I've concluded that you can taste differences related to these temperatures. What I've said is that IF such varying brew temperatures have an important impact on the shots produced, then it is important to know what those temperatures are. In order to know that, you need to use a datalogger.

A datalogger is absolutely not needed to prove or disprove whether a machine autofills during a shot, at least not my machine as I know it, which was all I attempted to find out and all I posted about initially. Well, maybe to "empirically prove it by demonstrating shot temp on a graph" while said graph still doesn't "prove" said temp variance or non-variance was caused or not caused by auto-fill or rather by something else. It's only a graph of shot temp with those reading about the graph taking your word any difference was caused by autofill during shot. Same as taking my word stating autofill during a shot doesn't happen on the rotary Bric' which it sounds as if you think impossible to determine without graphing the shot. It's plain as day to see when autofill kicks in on the Bric' simply by observing the boiler pressure.
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Link to "How Autofill Degrades Shot Temperature Stability"by Ken Fox on Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:25 am

miKe mcKoffee wrote:A datalogger is absolutely not needed to prove or disprove whether a machine autofills during a shot, at least not my machine as I know it, which was all I attempted to find out and all I posted about initially. Well, maybe to "empirically prove it by demonstrating shot temp on a graph" while said graph still doesn't "prove" said temp variance or non-variance was caused or not caused by auto-fill or rather by something else. It's only a graph of shot temp with those reading about the graph taking your word any difference was caused by autofill during shot. Same as taking my word stating autofill during a shot doesn't happen on the rotary Bric' which it sounds as if you think impossible to determine without graphing the shot. It's plain as day to see when autofill kicks in on the Bric' simply by observing the boiler pressure.


The point of my initial post was the degradation in shot temperature stability caused by autofill. Autofill can actuate at any time, although particular machines may prevent autofill from actuating during a shot (as may well be true of your machine). Even if your machine does not autofill the boiler during actual shots, it can still degrade shot temperature control if the boiler is hit with low temperature input water just before you make the next shot.

In order to test the impact of autofill on your machine's shot temperature stability, you require a measuring device (i.e. a Scace, preferably, or some other hopefully repeatable method), a datalogger, and the ability to defeat your autofill circuit for long enough to make a comparison shot series that is datalogged to compare with a datalogged shot series with the autofill functioning normally. That is what I did with my machine and that is what I posted about, a comparison between these two conditions.

My comparison showed a difference in a long shot series that included frothing, which is something that will cause the autofill circuit to actuate.

The explanation of WHY an autofill circuit may cause shot temperature disruptions is that there is an inflowing of lower temperature water into the boiler at an inopportune time. Whether this time is actually during shot production or just before shot production, although important for devising a way around the problem doesn't really matter; the inflow of water screwed up the current or next shot or shots.

Later in my post I mentioned that Michael Teahan had suggested using a relay to defeat autofill during a shot, if that was the problem with my machine. I indicated a willingness to test that hypothesis by installing such a relay and re-running my test. Of course, it could turn out that my machine doesn't autofill during shots, either. I wouldn't know if this relay worked to alleviate this problem until I tested it after installing the relay.

So, once again, you don't know if autofill perturbs shot temperatures on your machine vs. having the autofill disabled. You do not know this because you have not tested it and you cannot test it without a datalogger. All protestations to the contrary neither prove nor disprove the point I have made in my initial post. If you want to test this, you will need a datalogger and you will need to compare a complicated shot series with frothing in both a situation where autofill functions normally on your machine and where it is disabled.

There is no other way that you can provide any useful information on this issue as regards your machine, no matter how many shots you make and deem excellent, and no matter how long you stare at your front panel pressure gauge or how carefully you listen for the autofill to function during shots.

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Link to "How Autofill Degrades Shot Temperature Stability"by miKe mcKoffee on Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:47 am

Never mind. I'll continue to operate my Bric' in ignorant bliss. I'll continue to wait a short spell before flash flush & go if auto-fill happens to kick in between shots during a shot series based on the apparent inaccuracy of observed none graphed Thermofilter shot tests with and without steaming.

I never set out to prove or disprove anything you posted. I set out to determine if the Bric' autofilled during a shot and succeeded at my task. Which for me included the effect of autofill between shots in a series and what to do about it in blissful non-graphed ignorance.

I'm not saying there's not value in plotted graphs in discussing theories and sharing data. I am saying I don't believe graphs are necessarily necessary to understand how one's machine works. But then I don't graph the temp curve of a steak grilling on the TEC 30f versus 80f ambient either. I do of course know that the grill won't attain the same max ~1000f temp at 30f as at 90f ambient and grill accordingly.
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Thanks for the proving the auto fill theory right.

Link to "How Autofill Degrades Shot Temperature Stability"by jason_casale on Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:31 am

I have long suspected and pretty much known auto fill screws up stability in the boiler. La Marzocco solution was to preheat the water going into the main boiler removing that problem with temp drops. Your solution to only fill when not brewing makes more sense and probably could have saved them money? I heard but can not confirm La Spaziale solution is to restrict the flow rate of fresh water into the boiler on a formula for recovery rate. Basically the water flows in the boiler just slow enough to recovery it as it is flowing into the boiler so there is minimal loss of heat to the boiler. On small machines if the autofill kicked in while brewing you knew your shot was screwed a drop in pump pressure for starters and water temperature. They should use your idea on all small 1 group units saving people headaches. Thanks again for the hard work proving theories correct on believer at a time.
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Link to "How Autofill Degrades Shot Temperature Stability"by Ken Fox on Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:35 am

miKe mcKoffee wrote:Never mind. I'll continue to operate my Bric' in ignorant bliss. I'll continue to wait a short spell before flash flush & go if auto-fill happens to kick in between shots during a shot series based on the apparent inaccuracy of observed none graphed Thermofilter shot tests with and without steaming.

I never set out to prove or disprove anything you posted. I set out to determine if the Bric' autofilled during a shot and succeeded at my task. Which for me included the effect of autofill between shots in a series and what to do about it in blissful non-graphed ignorance.

I'm not saying there's not value in plotted graphs in discussing theories and sharing data. I am saying I don't believe graphs are necessarily necessary to understand how one's machine works. But then I don't graph the temp curve of a steak grilling on the TEC 30f versus 80f ambient either. I do of course know that the grill won't attain the same max ~1000f temp at 30f as at 90f ambient and grill accordingly.


Many things give me bliss, but ignorance is not one of them :P

If you would actually read my posts rather than simply responding to them, you would see that I never suggested that it was necessary for you to buy a datalogger or to graph anything, if the goal was enjoyment of your espresso on your espresso machine. I have explicitly stated this more than once in this thread.

The fact that you believe your machine does not autofill during shots and that you can wait "a short spell" after it does and get repeatable temperatures obviously satisfies you and I have no problems with that.

The point of my post which remains the point of my post, without change, is that a heat exchanger machine with autofill will flood the boiler with cool water during shotmaking sessions that include frothing. This will give a larger than normal degree of shot temperature variation in that series of shots. If compared to an otherwise similar machine that lacks autofill, or to the same machine where the autofill is disabled, the shot stability of the machine with autofill will be less. There are probably simple and cheap ways of "fixing" this, as suggested by the thread on alt.coffee. Whether this is worth doing for any particular person on any particular machine is certainly debatable.

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Re: Thanks for the proving the auto fill theory right.

Link to "How Autofill Degrades Shot Temperature Stability"by Ken Fox on Thu Jul 13, 2006 11:43 am

jason_casale wrote:I have long suspected and pretty much known auto fill screws up stability in the boiler. La Marzocco solution was to preheat the water going into the main boiler removing that problem with temp drops. Your solution to only fill when not brewing makes more sense and probably could have saved them money? I heard but can not confirm La Spaziale solution is to restrict the flow rate of fresh water into the boiler on a formula for recovery rate. Basically the water flows in the boiler just slow enough to recovery it as it is flowing into the boiler so there is minimal loss of heat to the boiler. On small machines if the autofill kicked in while brewing you knew your shot was screwed a drop in pump pressure for starters and water temperature. They should use your idea on all small 1 group units saving people headaches. Thanks again for the hard work proving theories correct on believer at a time.


One of the solutions to this problem suggested to me by Michael Teahan was to physically restrict the rate of flow of water into the boiler, as you suggest is found in the La Spaz. The one thing that bothers me about this is that when restarting the machine after it has been turned off (and the boiler emptied) or simply emptying out the boiler to replace the water in it, the flow into the boiler would also be slowed and this could cause problems such as with the rotary pump.

On the alt.coffee thread and in emails with Jim Schulman, the idea of using a "delay on break" timer was suggested; these are basically a relative of the "delay on make" timer I used for producing pre-infusion in my rotary machine. An appropriate one could probably be bought for less than $30. The question would be how long to set the timer for; I'd probably put it at maybe 10 or 15 minutes to be sure that a current run of shotmaking was over. But you'd have to play with it to be sure that it didn't make matters worse in actual use.

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Link to "How Autofill Degrades Shot Temperature Stability"by cannonfodder on Thu Jul 13, 2006 12:42 pm

A delay on break would be interesting. I don't know if I am to fond of the restricted flow idea, aside the possible pump issues (especially if you are using a small vibe pump machine) it would take forever to fill the boiler after a flush. Granted that is a rare occasion and no one would do it during business hours.

Running preheat would still sap heat from the boiler unless you added a dedicated preheat heater. Something like the 'instant hot' water heaters used in kitchens. Simply wrapping the pipe around the boiler would still leach heat out of the boiler as the cool water circulates, then another hit when it finally injects into the boiler.

What about something like an intermix. Pre-mix the boiler water into the waterline going into the boiler? You would still take a thermal hit, but the recovery may be faster.
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Preheat

Link to "How Autofill Degrades Shot Temperature Stability"by jason_casale on Thu Jul 13, 2006 1:37 pm

Actually preheat works well on the LM because the steam boiler preheats the brew water before entering the brew boiler. I think it is this way on the gb5. Heat exchangers thru the steam boiler to flash heat the water before entering the brew boiler if I remember correctly. please feel free to correct me if this is not right anybody who knows for sure.
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Link to "How Autofill Degrades Shot Temperature Stability"by RapidCoffee on Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:25 am

houdina wrote:Does anyone know how having the boiler feed turn on during a shot effects the water pressure on the puck. It would seem sure to cause some fluctuation in pressure, I wonder how much.

cannonfodder wrote:On a vibe pump, it kills your brew pressure. On my Isomac I loose almost half pressure, on a rotary, it is usually minimal.

This is not what I see on my Vetrano (Fluid-O-Tech rotary pump). The brew pressure drops significantly when autofill is engaged. I just tried a simple test: forced autofill by running the hot water tap, and measured the flow rate. The water volume pumped out in 10 seconds dropped from 70ml to 35ml with autofill on. The Vetrano gauge does not permit determination of the brew pressure change, but the flow rate is cut roughly in half when autofill kicks in. This certainly could ruin a shot.

Fortunately I've never seen autofill engage during a shot, but I plan to keep it available as a convenient excuse: "Yeah, would've been a godshot except for the darn autofill." :-)
________
John

P.S. - Apologies to the OP, I know this is slightly OT.
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