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Hottop KN-8828B Power Levels

Discuss roast levels and profiles for espresso, equipment for roasting coffee.

Link to "Hottop KN-8828B Power Levels"by Randy G. on Sat Sep 06, 2008 2:35 pm

NOTE: this post was edited after i posted it as I thought it best to just include it as one post instead of adding the testing as suggested by Ian after I posted the original:

I just purchased a Kill-A-Watt P4400 to help with our home power consumption, but mostly to use for review purposes and to better understand home coffee roasters, for me and for my reviews. These simple devices have an outlet, a row of buttons, and an LCD display on the front, On teh back is a standard wall plug. Plug the Kill-A-Watt into an outlet and plug a device up to 15 amps into the socket on the front of the Kill-A-Watt, and it displays various parameters. This affordable device (about $20 shipped) will display a number of things including KWH, amps, watts, Hz, and Volts.

One of the topics of discussion is the power level control of the Hottop KN-8828B. Although the meter will not show how the device manages the power levels, it does show what the power consumption is during each level. To measure, I started the roaster without beans and allowed it heat up and then enter the roasting cycle. With the fans off throughout, I cycled through the 11 steps (0% through 100% in 10% increments) and recorded the high and low wattage consumption of the roaster at each step, then graphed the findings.

After I posted the original graph, Ian suggested that it would be interesting to know the temperature level at each of the settings. At first I thought that would be a great idea, but after a bit of testing I found that the information was difficult to gather and of questionable value...

Chamber temperature would be interesting, as Ike suggested, except I found that it's not as easy as it sounds. The problem is that to do the test with beans could take a few pounds to do accurately. I tried it without beans.. It takes quite some time for the roaster to reach thermal equilibrium at each level. Even at five minutes per setting you can only do about 5 steps per test, and even then it is not long enough for the temperature to stabilize- ten minutes or even fifteen is needed. After the preheat cycle, the roaster is ramping up to the point that if you set the heater to 10%, after five minutes roast time it hits 325F. on the display. If you let it run at 10% for about ten or fifteen minutes, and use the fan to "hit the thermal brakes" so to speak, it will settle in at about 257F.

And then it is the other way round at 30%. For the five-minute-per-segment test I had a display reading 267F., but when allowed to run for some time longer at each of 15%, 20%, and then stabilize at 30%, I had a reading of 330F.

So... The only way to get accurate data would be to load 250g. of beans, set the temp to the desired level, and let it run until it held a temperature for a minute or so, then set it to the next temp and repeat. This would take two or maybe three pounds to achieve accurate results, and then, after all that, they would not be terribly meaningful nor useful because no one would roast that way.

Additionally, it takes a long time early on to stabilize, but also, at the end of the roast, at 80 percent, without beans, the temperature rises to the "magical" 228 mark and the beans eject automatically. So, once again, without beans in the roaster, getting a useful temperature reading at 90% or 100% is difficult, if not impossible.

It is sort of like saying, if you hold the gas pedal at half throttle, how fast are you going? or, how far should the throttle be depressed to go 55? It is more important to know what is the zero to 60 time? So, if someone thinks that data more accurate than this is in some way useful, please try to convince me to sacrifice the beans necessary to compile the data, but I do not think it is worth the beans to do the test. Even if done, differences in line voltage, bean density, bean moisture level, fan speed, and even the condition of the main filter will change the data.

OK, so I was an art major, am not a scientist, nor do I have any real knowledge of thermal dynamics, but here is the original graph with some figures added to show the APPROXIMATE temperatures at each heater level:
Image
I will try to explain—

- The temperatures above the graphed line are those I manually recorded using a thermocouple located about midway between the bottom of the Hottop's sensor and the floor of the drum.
- The temperatures below the graph line are those I manually recorded from the Hottop's LCD temperature display.
- The first three temperatures in each set (10%, 20%, and 30%) were recorded using an extended period of time for each to try to achieve stability for meaningful readings. The remainder of the temps (40% and above) were done during a separate roast with about a five minute period of time per level (including teh 10-30% settings, the data from those three levels was not used for this graph).

With the heating element off (just the internal electronics and the drum motor powered), the consumption was 24 watts. With the heating element at 100%, about 756 watts.

At each step there was a high-low range; a fluctuation if you will, but the average deviation from high to low was about 1.2% for any pair of readings, and I would call that insignificant for the purpose of this discussion.

I do not know how this is being controlled by the roaster's electronics. I suspect that they are switching the power to the heating element in a binary mode in "duty cycles" (?) to create the power levels but that is just a guess. Maybe someone with an oscilloscope or frequency counter can measure that.
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Link to "Hottop KN-8828B Power Levels"by cafeIKE on Sat Sep 06, 2008 2:49 pm

It would be interesting to see the chamber end point temperature measured at the bean mass probe, say after 5 minutes at each power level.
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Link to "Hottop KN-8828B Power Levels"by LeoZ on Wed Oct 01, 2008 7:43 pm

im surprised the heating element didnt pulse. pretty impressive logic if the board only supplies the power needed for the set level, but that could be a negative as well. it would explain why it takes so long for the element to ramp up in the middle of a roast. it would only be receiving 50% power for a 50% setpoint, vs 100% power to achieve the setpoint, then pulse to maintain that setpoint.

have you just tried doing a roast that you normally would, and record the power used? stick a variac in between and see if the kill a watt causes any fluctuations, too. :)
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Link to "Hottop KN-8828B Power Levels"by JimG on Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:05 pm

Randy G. wrote:I do not know how this is being controlled by the roaster's electronics. I suspect that they are switching the power to the heating element in a binary mode in "duty cycles" (?) to create the power levels but that is just a guess. Maybe someone with an oscilloscope or frequency counter can measure that.

Randy -

Thanks for the hard work on this. Very helpful information.

Regarding the power control, I suspect that a simple phase angle controller is being used. Not really very different from a lamp dimmer switch.

These work by inserting a brief "flat spot" in the AC sine wave at each zero crossing. The longer the delay, the more advanced the phase angle before the SSR starts to conduct on each cycle, and the less power applied per cycle.

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Link to "Hottop KN-8828B Power Levels"by cafeIKE on Thu Oct 02, 2008 12:34 pm

Since there's a microcontroller, I'd expect they'd use an output line with a simple On/Off ratio controlling the SSR.
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Link to "Hottop KN-8828B Power Levels"by Randy G. on Thu Oct 02, 2008 2:00 pm

Definitely sounds like a job for an oscilloscope....
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Link to "Hottop KN-8828B Power Levels"by cafeIKE on Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:44 pm

Who cares as long as it works?
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Link to "Hottop KN-8828B Power Levels"by JimG on Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:00 pm

Image
100% power (above)

Image
~80% power (above)

Image
50% power (above)

Image
~20% power (above)

Looks like phase angle control, but I won't speculate as to exactly how the B's electronics accomplish it.

In case you're wondering "why in the heck...?", I've been looking for an excuse to reinstall some old software on the new computer in my shop.

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Link to "Hottop KN-8828B Power Levels"by Randy G. on Fri Oct 03, 2008 12:02 am

Jim,

THANK YOU for taking the time to do that. Very interesting indeed, even to an art major like me....
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Link to "Hottop KN-8828B Power Levels"by JonS on Fri Oct 03, 2008 7:09 am

Coincidentally, I've been investigating controlling my Hottop "P" model externally. This was a project that was on the backburner for months due to other priorities, but having started to offer some advice and help to another UK forum member for a similar project based around the "original" Hottop electronics, I figured I would get off my butt and have a play myself with the more modern mainboard in the "P".

When I upgraded my original hottop boards for the "P" set, the fact that there was an extra wire running between the 2 boards involved, marked "interrupt", immediately made me think that they were now utilising the AC zero-cross for either more-accurate PWM, "cleaner" AC switching, or Phase angle control. Phase Angle seemed like the most probable, it seems to offer the finest control, just as Jim has shown in the scope plot.

Anyway, having coded up and tested some Phase Angle code, detecting the zero cross interrupt, delaying by some variable amount, and then triggering the heater, it simply didn't work at all, the heater stayed cold, despite the control signal looking good.

On further inspection of the hottop internal board from my "P" model, I noted that the opto-isolator used was in fact different to the one in the old hottop. My "P" model utilises a MOC3063, which is a "zero cross" triac controller. This would imply that the heater can only be switched on the zero cross. Phase Angle control explicitly requires switching away from the AC zero cross, which is why it is also known for generating more electrical interference IIRC.

My conclusion, at least until I read this post, was therefore, that more accurate, AC-cycle-synchronised PWM was actually the method of choice for heater control in the newer Hottops - it was my understanding that the "P" and "B" shared the same internal mainboard, with only the external display board being different.

Does anyone know whether it's a "P" / "B" model difference, or a US / UK model difference at work here ? The original hottop used a MOC3023 which would switch at any point in the cycle, but had no zero-cross detection circuitry.

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Link to "Hottop KN-8828B Power Levels"by 187 on Sun Oct 05, 2008 5:15 pm

Now that the finest minds of Hottop heating have assembled in one spot can anyone tell me what Michael won't. How is it that my heating element is sometimes glowing and sometimes dark? This happens while I am watching the watts on the kill a watt meter hold steady at 735. If there is really binary control of the element why don't the watts fluctuate just as they do when the elements shut down when segment temps are reached. Without knowing this how can I really tighten up on the program if the machine has a mind of its own? What are parameters that cycle the element and where are the watts going if it really is binary?
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Link to "Hottop KN-8828B Power Levels"by JonS on Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:29 am

I have to say, personally, that I can't really answer that. My electronics skils are long-term-hobbyist only, and I don't have an electrical engineering background.

The heating element itself appears to have a pretty large thermal inertia, meaning that it takes a while to respond with more heat after power is applied to it, even at full power. And conversely some time to cool down when power is no-longer applied. The red glow comes when the element itself is red hot, it's not necessarily a reflection of the applied power at that instant.

After quite a lot of roasts, I find the "P" a little frustrating. Intuitively, it feels to me that if I wanted to slow the rate of temperature rise of a particular part of the roast, I would like to force lower power. If I wanted the rise to be faster, I would force higher power. On the face of it, this ought to correspond to lengthening the segment time / lowering the segment target temperature, and shortening the segment time / raising the segment target temperature. But, there's always the constraints that reaching the target temperature will turn off the element completely, and segments are limited in both number and maximum duration. This seems to result in most people's profiles making use of really high segment target temperatures to ensure the element never goes off. Roast progress is then largely determined by how fast the hottop will heat at full pelt with the given bean mass, bean type and the ambient temperature. It doesn't feel quite right IMHO. A good PID algorithm, subject to the limits of the maximum possible rate of temperature rise, ought to be able to feather the heater so that it never needs to go off, that required segment temperatures are reached with a reasonable degree of accuracy, and low overshoot, and potentially, with some regard to what is supposed to happen in the next segment as well. This is why I started to look at different control methods. Not that I necessarily claim to be an expert on this, it's just something I'd like to look into. Even if that ends up being to run it like the "B" model.

A bean mass probe, and possibly a better environment probe, seem to be the first steps to evaluating what's really happening in the hottop at the bean level, with tweaks to the segment temperatures and times to influence this, in an iterative process over several roasts. I think this will give a clearer picture of what effect the program and the heating element are having at any given time, than will the power consumption or color.

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Link to "Hottop KN-8828B Power Levels"by LeoZ on Mon Oct 06, 2008 10:39 am

Yep, the P is frustrating indeed. Programming seems to be a race against time, as opposed to managing heat AND time control. The B is much better, just limited in its programming.

All the P really needs are in-roast over rides. Of course the other option is to be able to forecast the power flow to the heating element so you can stage it better across time periods. ha!
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Link to "Hottop KN-8828B Power Levels"by cafeIKE on Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:48 pm

Go manual, young man.

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