Homeroasted coffee vs. commercially roasted "pro" coffee - Page 2

[mdoberenz]

My reaction to this thread is to want to reflect on why I roast, why I enjoy it, why I have a drive to continue it despite not "knowing" what I am really doing as well as using an air popper with expensive high quality beans. I happen to be a professional baker of those crusty hearty breads mentioned earlier, however with a bent toward the German rather than the French. I remember getting my first real oven, a wood-fired Llopis - wow! finally, crust and hole structure etc. My first loaves were disappointing - a home baker may have been pleased but I was on the verge of hanging it up emotionally for a couple of hours. Years later my senses and intimacy with the baking is more zen like, my consciousness is wide and open to things naturally now. Anyway, the point is I still have this weird experience of mild dissatisfaction. A recent well written bread book quoted, "may you never find the perfect loaf!" Ahh, the real baker feels this in the journey intensely. Therefore this journey is full of this deep longing for the perfect bake or roast. Yes, anyone feeling close to any type of perfection deserves a laugh. So I feel this in my roasting, and when I do unlock some secret chocolate or blueberry I am satisfied. But I know the pros must have an overall conscious approach achieved by love and a lot more time than I have. So tasting their roast is essential, but the journey of unlocking secrets in my garage is adventurous and euphoric.

Mark

[cannonfodder]

I home roast, I play cook, and drive motorcycles real fast and drag foot pegs, but I am no pro roaster, schooled chef or pro racer. Maybe I do these things just to fulfill a fantasy or boyish dream. Whatever the reason, I occasionally pull of an awesome blend (to my taste buds), prepare a wondrous meal and drift the rear tire through at turn at 110, it just serves to make me appreciate the skill and dedication of those that do these things day in and day out with a skill level so high that it allows them to make a living doing what I dream of.

I roast simply because I enjoy it, be my blends ghastly horrid or sublimely delicious.

[Ken Fox]

I home roast, I play cook, and drive motorcycles real fast and drag foot pegs, but I am no pro roaster, schooled chef or pro racer. Maybe I do these things just to fulfill a fantasy or boyish dream. Whatever the reason, I occasionally pull of an awesome blend (to my taste buds), prepare a wondrous meal and drift the rear tire through at turn at 110, it just serves to make me appreciate the skill and dedication of those that do these things day in and day out with a skill level so high that it allows them to make a living doing what I dream of.

I roast simply because I enjoy it, be my blends ghastly horrid or sublimely delicious.

I think that home roasting is well worth getting into; if nothing else, it will teach one a lot about coffee and how it is made ready for preparation in an espresso machine. If all one did was roast 2 or 3 batches just to see what was involved in it, then what was learned would be well worth the effort.

Although I (nearly always) enjoy using the end product, there are times when I detest the process. This is especially true during the winter when I have to deal with the cold and the issues of smoke and chaff and cold air, not very pleasant things to take in, together. Nonetheless, I'd be very reluctant to give up home roasting as it opens up a whole world of available coffees that would simply not be available to me without home roasting.

What I was getting at when I accidentally started what has become, this thread, was that people who home roast should not blindly assume that just because their home roasted coffee is fresh, that it is good. Roasting coffee is a learned skill, and to advance in it one must continually compare one's results to those of others, including professionals, and they should never miss an opportunity to get feedback from anyone whose taste they respect, on their homeroasted coffee. By this I mean, do such things as exchange roast samples with others to try to get their opinions. This is especially worthwhile if the person to whom you are sending the coffee is familiar with the green coffee you have roasted, so that they have some sort of frame of reference to compare with.

ken

[cannonfodder]

I agree completely. If nothing else you come away with a sense of respect for those that make a living at it and a better understanding of the process.

I enjoy the experience and the end results. I also occasionally send off a sample or two for evaluation by a third party, or two. Especially when I have a blend that is close but missing that little something. I will not say my home roast is better than the pro's, just different and a nice change of pace.

[PheasantCreek]

I think there are some differences with home and professional roasters. I head up to CCC and chat with Tim all the time while he is roasting. The goal, at least with CCC, is to bring out the best qualities of the bean and be consistent from roast to roast to roast. To do that they have a seriously tricked out roaster with about 27 variables they can adjust, agtron each roast and cup each roast and compare the results with previous batches to see if anything should be changed.

With home roasting, and I did this a lot until I married the coffee shop, I would also try and be consistent from roast to roast and kept track of roast times, crack times, temperature and such but would never be able to achieve the same level of consistency as CCC. Some days would be hotter or colder or humidity would be different and the small batch of home roasted coffee would be different from the previous batch. Does that mean it was bad? No. Did I enjoy roasting coffee? Yes. Was it the same as the last batch? Sometimes.

I don't see where the argument comes from that you should buy from a commercial roaster or do it yourself. The quality of the bean and care of the person roasting it will always make a great cup! It is a personal choice of price, convenience, quality and enjoyment.

[Marshall]

Without putting words into Ken's mouth, I think he is responding to the kind of posts you see so often on the Internet from the home-roasting evangelists: "Question: Can anyone recommend a good roaster I can buy from?" "Answer: You've got to home roast. You'll never experience great coffee until you've roasted it at home, because it's all about the freshness."

Someone on [corrected] CoffeeGeek recently asked for a recommendation, because his prize of a 6-month subscription to Ecco Caffe had just run out. He was, of course, immediately directed to start home roasting. I suggested the shock might adversely affect his health.

[Matthew Brinski]

"Question: Can anyone recommend a good roaster I can buy from?" "Answer: You've got to home roast. You'll never experience great coffee until you've roasted it at home, because it's all about the freshness."

I agree that this type of attitude portrayed by the home "expert" community is laughable -at best- to the professionals, and can be insulting. Roasting is very complex, and it IS scientific. To compare it to "just cooking" is insulting to both professional roasters and bakers ... especially those who are actual chemists.

Home roasting can yield good results, but it is absurd to believe that the home roaster is able to surpass the quality of most quality driven roasting professionals - AND THERE ARE A LOT OF THEM.

[JonR10]

To compare it to "just cooking" is insulting to both professional roasters and bakers ... especially those who are actual chemists.

I find this an inflammatory statement. Are you looking to insult all the great cooks and chefs reading in these forums? A great meal (or even one special dish) prepared with love can be sublime and very VERY difficult to reproduce.

Maybe I'm way off you meant "just cooking" in terms of heating up a frozen pizza in he microwave.....

Home roasting can yield good results, but it is absurd to believe that the home roaster is able to surpass the quality of most quality driven roasting professionals - AND THERE ARE A LOT OF THEM.

The only absurdity is to speak in absolute terms.


I've been roasting for a few years now (SC/TO/Variac). Some folks think I have a natural talent for roasting.

I passionately enjoy the pursuit of knowledge of the bean....and I also passionately enjoy tasting my products and experimenting with the endless variety of beans from different places and even the different crops from my favorite sources. Each season brings new experiences and new beans.

SIDE NOTE: has anyone found a smooth, sweet and creamy-CREAMY Brazilian this year yet? I ran out of my Brasil Fazienda Cachoiera from last year's crop and haven't found anything even close yet this year...

I have traded samples with professional roasters on a few occasions. Some folks' products I like and some I favor less, but it's all an enjoyable learning process. Am I on a par with an operation like Paradise roasters? NO. So what?

Occasionally I'll spring for a few pounds of some pricey pro-roast beans both for the variety and also to keep abreast of what's happening not to mention keeping a barometer on my own home-roast. Sometimes I'm ecstatic to taste (oh golly do I miss some of the roasters who've disappeared!) and sometimes I'm disappointed in the $20/lb product I just had.

Bottom line? There absolutely is no absolute when it comes to comparing home roasts to pro roasts. Heck, I can not even make absolute statements about comparing pro artisan roasts from a single roaster from season to season (each season brings new beans and nothing lasts forever).

[Matthew Brinski]

Are you looking to insult all the great cooks and chefs reading in these forums? A great meal (or even one special dish) prepared with love can be sublime and very VERY difficult to reproduce.

Maybe I'm way off you meant "just cooking" in terms of heating up a frozen pizza in he microwave..... :shock:

I don't understand your statement. Someone made an earlier post saying that roasting is "cooking for cryin' out loud" and I am simply stating that #1 - Cooking and baking is both a science and art and not "just" something, which insults cooks and bakers. #2 Roasting is not "just" something either.

What I find irritating is the common notion that home roasting and home espresso preparation surpassess most anything else professionally available. That is simply not true.

[RapidCoffee]

What I find irritating is the common notion that home roasting and home espresso preparation surpassess most anything else professionally available.

I'll say it again: nobody on this thread has stated that their home roasts are better than the upper echelon of commercial roasts. Nobody has stated that their home espresso preparation is better, either. While you may find this irritating, it's a complete non-issue on this thread. Please read the guidelines for productive online discussion for commonsense pointers on raising the level of discussion.

There is nothing wrong with a dialog on the merits of home roasting, and all reasoned opinions should be welcome. So... back to home vs. commercial roasts.

Exhibit A

Expensive 100% Kona, "private reserve" no less, recently brought from Hawaii by a friend.


Supposedly a medium roast, this was charred, stale, and literally undrinkable, even as drip coffee.

Exhibit B

Some of the finest espresso blends on the planet.


Coffee Klatch Espresso blend - yum!

Commercial roasts run the whole gamut, from undrinkable to sublime. If Coffee Klatch were the standard for coffee roasting in this country, I'd be an ex-home roaster. Try walking into a supermarket and scoring a sublime roast. Ain't gonna happen, at least not in my neck of the woods.

[another_jim]

One of the ironies is that home roasting makes you a very good judge of commercial espresso blends and SOs; just as home barista-ing makes you a good judge of well pulled cafe shots.

When I get a great blend, I often ask myself why I bother home roasting. Marshall is an ex-home roaster who decided that with excellent coffee available in LA, it wasn't worth the bother. I'm still a practicing home roaster despite the excellent coffees available locally and within a 24 hour shipping range from Minneapolis, St Louis, or KC. I do it because I enjoy it, and even more so, because it helps my judgment of what is good and what is great.

Another irony: almost all the roasters who produce the terrific blends and SOs, sell their coffees green in addition to roasted. This is worth a good think. Obviously these roasters do not consider that home roasting is hurting their business; rather they see the recognition they get from home roasters as helping their business. Good roasters are just as proud of the way they source beans as the way they roast them; and the roasters we talk about here are all massively determined to source the very best. The market for coffees at this level is very young, and needs to grow, hence the current commonality between commercial and home roasters taking part in it.

I think it's worth enjoying while it lasts. I have a feeling that these spectacular coffees will get much wider recognition soon. They'll become more expensive, the crops will be spoken for by importers and roasters years ahead of time, you'll see food critics rating the '09 Adados or Panama Geishas (by then Jaramillo won't be the only grower), and getting them green as a home roaster will become a whole lot tougher.

[Ken Fox]

I think it's worth enjoying while it lasts. I have a feeling that these spectacular coffees will get much wider recognition soon. They'll become more expensive, the crops will be spoken for by importers and roasters years ahead of time, you'll see food critics rating the '09 Adados or Panama Geishas (by then Jaramillo won't be the only grower), and getting them green as a home roaster will become a whole lot tougher.

Honestly, Jim, I'd rate the likelihood of the above scenario as slim to none. The universe of people who would bother to seek out any of this stuff is vanishingly small. Most people, even people who are into fine food and wine, regard coffee as uninteresting and not worthy of their time. I don't see this changing anytime fast.

The "universe" of fine coffee consumers might be expanding each year, but we'll be dead and long since buried before this is an issue. Higher prices for better green will result in the production of more "better" green. Much of this will come from better selection and grading of coffee that is already being produced, which will make average coffee even worse.

Increasing availability of better green will happen at least as fast (and I'd bet, faster) than will the group of consumers willing to buy such coffee.

ken

[another_jim]

Increasing availability of better green will happen at least as fast (and I'd bet, faster) than will the group of consumers willing to buy such coffee.

I hope you're right. I guess the folks at the great roasters hope you're wrong

[rasqual]

Heck, why does anyone go backpacking on the PCT when their betters have climbed K2, Everest, and far more difficult peaks? Why try anything so relatively unimpressive?

As with the aesthetic of consuming coffee, there's a joy in preparing it. Maybe it's a bit of the Slow Food thing. There's ownership of the process. There's the personal challenge of becoming acquainted with one's food one step further up in the chain from the grocer. It's a very international hobby that profits from understanding economics, geography, agriculture, climate, markets, and so forth.

The difficulty in matching a superb professional's roasts isn't a reason to stop home roasting. It's just a challenge to anyone who accepts with some humility where s/he is on the path, and owns their own successes and failures with grace and hope.

My gaffes with roasting far exceed my triumphs. But that's true with so many things, that if I were to take my relative standing among betters as a cause for giving it up, there'd be a lot of other worthwhile things I'd have to give up if I were to be philosophically consistent.

[Marshall]

Rasqual, I agree with everything you wrote.

[rasqual]

I'll add one thing: I've had more lousy coffee in roasteries than from home roasters. I don't know why. But I know more small business ventures fail than succeed, so I'd imagine that the market has a way of getting the crema to float to the top. These bad shops fail. It gets to the point where you can see it coming the day they open their doors. It's kind of sad.

Home roasters don't have a market. For that reason, mediocre home roasters will not "go under" as their commercial cousins might. They don't get "taken out" by the evolutionary forces that nuke the bad commercial roasteries. Home roasters aren't in a competitive environment, either. They lack a profit motive for quality. They haven't committed their savings to a business plan and thus aren't lying awake nights, anxious about whether their customers are happy.

That lack of pressure can make home roasters casual or careless, or it can mean that the best home roasters really love coffee in lieu of markets twisting their aesthetic arm to make things good.

The best commercial roasters and the best home roasters lack in common a vast number of things, and the commercial roaster has the best advantages. But that same commercial roaster would be languishing among the marginally viable businesses if s/he lacked the love of coffee they share in common. IMO, that love of coffee is unlikely to be found in those who lack social consciousness, and my theory would be that this appreciation for people's contentment is one of the things that keeps home roasters going. A humble home roaster can hear "this is the best coffee I've ever tasted" without imagining that he's the best roaster around. He's just happy to have given that person that experience.

Something like that.

[JonR10]

Someone made an earlier post saying that roasting is "cooking for cryin' out loud" and

My bad, I took your comment out of context (I have not carefully read this entire thread)

What I find irritating is the common notion that home roasting and home espresso preparation surpassess most anything else professionally available. That is simply not true.

Hmmm.....I do not think that notion is so far off base (in the terms you're using). Home roasting and home espresso preparation does indeed surpass the vast majority of what is available commercially and in shops.

As Mr. Rapidcoffee so tactfully pointed out, decent beans and decent espresso is relatively sparse out there in the real world. he also makes a valid point that nobody discussing the issue here claims to be better than the best professionals.

In my own case there are 3-4 coffee shops within 200 miles from my home that serve a GOOD espresso, but I have to jump on an airplane or drive for days to get espresso that FAR surpasses what I make in my kitchen. I'm not being boastful, just realistic. What I make at home suits my own tastes developed after years of progressive experimentation with beans, blends, roasts, and preparation styles and techniques.

You may live near some of the great shops, but the vast majority of us are not so lucky.....





ASIDE: Jim & Ken - if you're reading this you will happy to know I am on a low-dose double normale binge and I'm grinding finer and tamping lighter. My deeper baskets have been idle for weeks now as I play with the 14-16g double shot......

[Fullsack]

The friends I roast for tell me that coffee I roast is better than the best professional roaster in the S.F. area. I don't really believe that, but it shows how much they appreciate someone roasting coffee for them.

[HB]

...I am on a low-dose double normale binge and I'm grinding finer and tamping lighter. My deeper baskets have been idle for weeks now as I play with the 14-16g double shot.

That's quite a surprise coming from the author of How to make a beautiful "naked" triple espresso. For those reading along, Jon refers to Ken's admonishments to return to standard dosing in the thread Basket Overdosing; time for a serious re-evaluation!

[Matthew Brinski]

My bad, I took your comment out of context (I have not carefully read this entire thread).

I apologize for not quoting the post which obviously skewed context. So my bad too.

You speak of nothing being in absolutes, and I agree. That is why it seems over-zealous to me for people to first and foremost recommend home roasting to those who are asking for recommendations, such as in the example Marshal posted, rather than recommend quality roasters who source and prepare fantastic coffee. I think it is especially true when giving a new espresso enthusiast the advice to home roast which introduces additional variables and inconsistencies to their learning curve of producing good espresso.

ASIDE: Jim & Ken - if you're reading this you will happy to know I am on a low-dose double normale binge and I'm grinding finer and tamping lighter. My deeper baskets have been idle for weeks now as I play with the 14-16g double shot......

NICE.