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Home Use Brew Temp protocol

Want to talk espresso but not sure which forum? If so, this is the right one.

Link to "Home Use Brew Temp protocol"by Ken Fox on Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:40 pm

malachi wrote:I'm sure that Greg has that data. I know others do. Suggest you mention your desire for it to be shared in the appropriate thread in The Bench. I would guess people would be perfectly willing to share it with you.

Personally, I understand that people obsess about this sort of thing - I am just not one of them. I've see results from a reasonable bracket (197.9F, 200.0F and 203.0F) and confirmed the results myself as well as in collaboration with other testers. That's enough for me.


Actually, Chris, I don't think Greg has that sort of data. If he does, I don't think he has shared it with anyone I've talked with and I've discussed this issue with a number of people we all know.

I am going to come up with a test protocol to test this issue, not specifically on this machine but on any machine used in the home by a home user, who has access to a Scace Device and datalogger. I have had a few emails with Andy S. in the last day about exactly this issue. I suggested that the two of us come up with a protocol testing this, that we could publish before anyone actually tests their machine so there would be no chance for the test to be designed based upon how a user might expect his machine to perform.

It doesn't have to be too complicated, just a list of shot sequences and time intervals, with all shots graphed on top of the other shots made at that temperature and some simple statistical tests, done at maybe 3 or 4 selected temperatures to examine the desired temperature range.

My point, which I'm obviously not making very well, is that now that we have the capacity to do accurate and repeatable thermography with the Scace device, we are not using it in a way that measures what matters most to the home barista, which is how likely he is to get a shot at a range of desired temperatures when he walks up to his machine to pull a random shot at a random time interval.

Best,

ken
(who is still not convinced that this stuff matters, either, just who thinks it needs to be tested both with blind taste testing and with thermography designed for low volume usage)
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Link to "Home Use Brew Temp protocol"by malachi on Thu Jan 05, 2006 1:43 pm

The way I validated the results I received was simply to run the WBC protocol at the temps indicated above. Don't see why some other protocol would need to be invented.
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Link to "Home Use Brew Temp protocol"by Ken Fox on Thu Jan 05, 2006 4:43 pm

malachi wrote:The way I validated the results I received was simply to run the WBC protocol at the temps indicated above. Don't see why some other protocol would need to be invented.


I do.

The WBC protocol measures what I would call multiple continuous shot temperature stability. It proceeds to disregard the data produced from the first several (is it 3?) shots, then concentrates on the rest, to a total of 14 shots, the last 6 of which are made at a shotmaking pace exceeding the skill level of almost every home barista out there. The fact that a machine might be "temperature stable" in a series of 6 shots pulled with 10 second intervals other than quick flushes and shot pulls, with 15 seconds to prepare the shot, does not even remotely mimic the work spread and production of a home barista. The data produced therefore means nothing to someone like myself and 99.8% of the home baristas reading this. I think that perhaps your work experience has skewed your impression of how typical home users would use a machine such as this, in the (generally) low volume setting of a home. I do again point out that this review is posted on "Home-Barista.com," which I would assume is directed at home baristas and not at professional baristas or owners of commercial establishments.

A typical home barista who cares about the quality of his shots, and who wants to avoid channeling and other flaws that are now more than evident with bottomless PFs, is unlikely to work at a pace greater than 1 double shot every 90 seconds, and one double every 2 minutes is probably more typical. The home barista pulls shots in runs of ones, occasional twos, and infrequent 3s (or more). One constantly sees posts from avid home baristas whose spouses or SOs don't drink much espresso, so the emphasis on "onesies," i.e. individual single shots pulled at varying idle intervals, does not seem misplaced in my opinion.

Instead of testing temperature stability over a 14 shot run that de-emphasizes what comes out in the first shot or two, and that extends far beyond what a home barista is apt to ever do, we need a test that looks at random first, second, and rare third shots in the way a home user would actually use this machine and all the others that claim to be more temperature stable than those machines made with "older" technology. This means we need a lot of isolated shots made after varying idle periods, to show what the home user is going to get in a use pattern that mimics how he or she would actually use the machine in the home, rather than some test that mimics how a professional barista in a barista competition would use it.

I'm almost 100% convinced that a test protocol mimicking typical home use will produce completely different "results" than would the WBC protocol, for every single machine out there except perhaps a tiny single boiler machine like a Silvia which probably would not do very well on either.

My opinion only.

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Link to "Home Use Brew Temp protocol"by malachi on Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:24 pm

Interesting points...

I've split this to a more active forum as I think it's relevant to all home users and not specific to the GS3 review.

Would love to hear Greg's thoughts on this...
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Link to "Home Use Brew Temp protocol"by Teme on Thu Jan 05, 2006 5:29 pm

I'm inclined to agree with Ken and would be very interested in seeing the results on the "alternative" method not only on the GS3 but also on other machines more geared (and priced) towards an average enthusiast.

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Link to "Home Use Brew Temp protocol"by RapidCoffee on Thu Jan 05, 2006 6:44 pm

Ken Fox wrote:A typical home barista who cares about the quality of his shots, and who wants to avoid channeling and other flaws that are now more than evident with bottomless PFs, is unlikely to work at a pace greater than 1 double shot every 90 seconds, and one double every 2 minutes is probably more typical. The home barista pulls shots in runs of ones, occasional twos, and infrequent 3s (or more). One constantly sees posts from avid home baristas whose spouses or SOs don't drink much espresso, so the emphasis on "onesies," i.e. individual single shots pulled at varying idle intervals, does not seem misplaced in my opinion.


Thanks for making this point so clearly, Ken. Your scenario is an excellent description of what goes on in my kitchen. I'd also be interested in seeing a new protocol that reflects home espresso use a bit more closely.

- John
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Link to "Home Use Brew Temp protocol"by skyryders90 on Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:17 pm

I completely agree as well. My typical usage pattern is to make 2 cappas in the morning, and several other drinks at pretty random intervals throughout the day - influenced only by my or my wife's mood. Garbage shots are failures, not part of a flushing routine. The most drinks ever made in quick succession is 5 - and this was a true rarity.

I have tremendous respect for the creators of the WBC protocols, but agree that they are not representative of the general community of "home baristas." I'd love to see testing and reviews that were more focused on the way that the majority of home baristas were likely to use the machines, and routines developed under conditions that were also more representative of this community. I think we'd find that there are more than ample resources here to work on that.

Just my .02.

EDIT: After rereading, I want to add that the fact that WBC protocol is not representative of home users is not a disparaging comment in any way - this is not the scenario it was intended to represent. I merely think it's time that we all agree that there are significant differences in the commercial and home settings, and that these difference may have significant impact on temperature stability. Frankly, I don't think anyone here would disagree with that. It's easily follows, then, that a testing protocol designed to mimic one scenario would prove inadequate to mimic the other.
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Link to "Home Use Brew Temp protocol"by Ken Fox on Thu Jan 05, 2006 7:38 pm

malachi wrote:Interesting points...

I've split this to a more active forum as I think it's relevant to all home users and not specific to the GS3 review.

Would love to hear Greg's thoughts on this...


I would like to form a small committee to write this protocol, which should not be so time consuming or difficult to accomplish that it will dissuade people from completing it. Since it is my idea I would like to name the committee :P

My nominations for membership in this committee are Jim Schulman, Andy Schecter, and myself. I think we could write this up with an exchange of several emails or through posts in this forum. If anyone else wants to either join this astute committee or to make suggestions on how the protocol should be written, please indicate so in this thread.

One potential benefit of this process is that we could have a bunch of us home barista types posting shot temperature results and graphs, with details given on how the results were obtained. Perhaps this will motivate people to explore various approaches to obtaining the most stable and reproducible results on particular machines. This could help other owners of the same equipment to get more consistent results out of their equipment. As an example of such novel approaches, I have found through preliminary testing that using my PID'd Cimbali Junior at a very low boiler temperature with a miniscule flush produces very repeatable results, per this graph:

Image


There is no point in keeping this sort of information private; it should be shared as everyone potentially benefits from disseminating knowledge like this. In addition, it will help to show exactly how much is to be gained by equipment upgrades, which may be less than initially thought once we come to realize how much performance can actually be gotten out of a given piece of equipment.

ken
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Link to "Home Use Brew Temp protocol"by miKe mcKoffee on Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:43 pm

I don't have the equipment to be part of testing the proposed protocol but think it should include atleast 6 back to back shots starting from various idle times, and also include back to back shot, to steaming for a cap, to shot, to steaming for say making 4 (or more) double shot caps steaming separately for each scenario. These are some the main actual reasons I upgraded from Silvia! Maybe also quantifying needed machine heatup times?
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Link to "Home Use Brew Temp protocol"by Ken Fox on Thu Jan 05, 2006 8:52 pm

miKe mcKoffee wrote:I don't have the equipment to be part of testing the proposed protocol but think it should include atleast 6 back to back shots starting from various idle times, and also include back to back shot, to steaming for a cap, to shot, to steaming for say making 4 (or more) double shot caps steaming separately for each scenario. These are some the main actual reasons I upgraded from Silvia! Maybe also quantifying needed machine heatup times?


I don't have any problem with doing 6 or more back to back shots but I don't think this is how home users typically use their machines and will not be representative. I have made as many as 9 back to back shots testing my new lower PID'd boiler temps with small volume flushes, and found good shot stability, but I don't think that most home users would want to do this nor would it be representative of normal usage patterns and hence if one were to adjust their machine for this sort of usage presumably results with more normal, small or 1 shot runs, would suffer.

As to steaming, I think this needs to be avoided for two reasons: (1) different people are going to froth different ways with different and similiar pieces of equipment and results will be all over the map and probably meaningless; (2) one can hide all sorts of sins in milk, and what really matters if one buys into tight temperature control as necessary, is to be able to pull straight shots which will be drunk straight under reproducible and tight temperature control.

I have some ideas myself, which I have not yet posted but will a little later.

ken
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Link to "Home Use Brew Temp protocol"by lennoncs on Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:05 pm

Ken,

While very good, the results should not be suprising;
You are now running your HX as a single boiler unit.

The real trick is going to be getting any steaming performance :lol:

Sean


Ken Fox wrote:...I have found through preliminary testing that using my PID'd Cimbali Junior at a very low boiler temperature with a miniscule flush produces very repeatable results, ...

ken
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Link to "Home Use Brew Temp protocol"by miKe mcKoffee on Thu Jan 05, 2006 9:05 pm

Ken Fox wrote:I don't have any problem with doing 6 or more back to back shots but I don't think this is how home users typically use their machines and will not be representative. I have made as many as 9 back to back shots testing my new lower PID'd boiler temps with small volume flushes, and found good shot stability, but I don't think that most home users would want to do this nor would it be representative of normal usage patterns and hence if one were to adjust their machine for this sort of usage presumably results with more normal, small or 1 shot runs, would suffer.
I disagree. While not the daily usage it is not an uncommon usage when entertaining. Being able to do 1 to 3 shots AND being able to do longer series of shots CAN be an important piece information when looking at a home machine.

As to steaming, I think this needs to be avoided for two reasons: (1) different people are going to froth different ways with different and similar pieces of equipment and results will be all over the map and probably meaningless; (2) one can hide all sorts of sins in milk, and what really matters if one buys into tight temperature control as necessary, is to be able to pull straight shots which will be drunk straight under reproducible and tight temperature control.
So? Isn't that what a test protocol is designed to do, give a comparison between machines? Again, not uncommon when entertaining to be making multiple back to back steamed milk drinks. Therefore if you're talking about a protocol to help people evaluate home machines how can steaming be ignored? Of course the quality of the shot is important! I'm not talking about steaming to hide inferior shots, I'm talking about the ability to pull excellent shots and steam excellent milk back to back. That's what's important when entertaining. It's not a matter of serving the quality of what someone can go buy at a drive-up espresso stand, it's about serving guests what a GREAT cappuccino should be. (even if they ask for a Latte :wink: )
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Link to "Home Use Brew Temp protocol"by lennoncs on Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:00 pm

Ken Fox wrote:As to steaming, I think this needs to be avoided for two reasons: (1) different people are going to froth different ways with different and similiar pieces of equipment and results will be all over the map and probably meaningless; (2) one can hide all sorts of sins in milk, and what really matters if one buys into tight temperature control as necessary, is to be able to pull straight shots which will be drunk straight under reproducible and tight temperature control.
ken


I don't quite agree,

I think you should quantify steaming performance by measuring the steam pressure falloff for tips with holes of various cross sectional area.

by doing this, a person can can make direct comparisons of steaming "capacity" for the various tips. although this does not reflect the ability of a machine to make a quality shot, it does bring things to light, for example;
your Cimbali exhibits excellent temperature performance at .58 bar but the steaming is going to most likely suck unless you bump it back to 1+ bar after which you will need time for the group to cool back down for the next shot...that all reflects on the usability of a machine and would contribute to a home machines PITA factor that needs to be considered.

I agree that the criteria for measuring the performance of a home machine is different, I have long held the thought that home machines have a completely different set of operational criteria that a commercial machine would have and the flexibility of switching between brew and steaming is one of those things that must to be considered.


sean
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Link to "Home Use Brew Temp protocol"by Ken Fox on Thu Jan 05, 2006 10:57 pm

lennoncs wrote:Ken,

While very good, the results should not be suprising;
You are now running your HX as a single boiler unit.

The real trick is going to be getting any steaming performance :lol:

Sean


I actually have tried this at a boiler temperature of 231F, for which I have posted temperature stability graphs. I got lush microfoam, better than my usual froth results, but of course it took a few seconds longer. I don't know how well this would work if you were trying to make 4 cappas in a row, however. It would have to be tested. One could easily just bump up the boiler temp a few degrees on the PID until one was back to making straight shots. From my testing earlier it appears that 10 minutes after changing boiler temp is more than enough time to get back into stable straight shot mode; a couple of minutes might be enough too, just I haven't tested it.

I'm 98% certain I'm going to continue to operate the machine this way except when I have to make more than one cappa. In any event, with a PID it is pretty easy to bump the temp up and down at will. Since most of us drink our cappas first thing and if we drink straight shots have them later, this would not be a big PITA in my opinion.

ken
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Link to "Home Use Brew Temp protocol"by Ken Fox on Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:04 pm

miKe mcKoffee wrote:So? Isn't that what a test protocol is designed to do, give a comparison between machines? Again, not uncommon when entertaining to be making multiple back to back steamed milk drinks. Therefore if you're talking about a protocol to help people evaluate home machines how can steaming be ignored? Of course the quality of the shot is important! I'm not talking about steaming to hide inferior shots, I'm talking about the ability to pull excellent shots and steam excellent milk back to back. That's what's important when entertaining. It's not a matter of serving the quality of what someone can go buy at a drive-up espresso stand, it's about serving guests what a GREAT cappuccino should be. (even if they ask for a Latte :wink: )


We are testing multiple things here and getting way beyond the potential of a straightforward temperature stability test protocol to evaluate.

What I would say to you is, design a test and write it up, either in this thread or elsewhere. I do not think it is possible for you or anyone else to design such a protocol in a reproducible manner that can be used with different machines, scored in some sort of way to produce meaningful data. I could be wrong on that, so please go ahead and propose something.

As to multi shot runs, this is where I'd defer to the WBC protocol. It is certainly not the right way to test a home machine but if what you are looking for is a way to evaluate a machine through a bunch of repetitive shots over a short period of time, there already is a protocol for that, the WBC one. So, if people want to take their home machines through the WBC protocol and publish their findings, I think that is great. One who is interested in making a machine purchase can easily look at all the available information. If they entertain a lot and make lots of shots in series with their machine, they will want to pay attention to WBC test results. If they use their machine the way that most of us home barista types do, for a few shots a day after varying idle periods, then the home barista type protocol results would be more meaningful.

ken
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Link to "Home Use Brew Temp protocol"by Ken Fox on Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:27 pm

lennoncs wrote:I don't quite agree,

I think you should quantify steaming performance by measuring the steam pressure falloff for tips with holes of various cross sectional area.

by doing this, a person can can make direct comparisons of steaming "capacity" for the various tips. although this does not reflect the ability of a machine to make a quality shot, it does bring things to light, for example;
your Cimbali exhibits excellent temperature performance at .58 bar but the steaming is going to most likely suck unless you bump it back to 1+ bar after which you will need time for the group to cool back down for the next shot...that all reflects on the usability of a machine and would contribute to a home machines PITA factor that needs to be considered.

I agree that the criteria for measuring the performance of a home machine is different, I have long held the thought that home machines have a completely different set of operational criteria that a commercial machine would have and the flexibility of switching between brew and steaming is one of those things that must to be considered.


sean


Sean,

My Cimbali (soon both Cimbalis) is HACKED, with a PID. I think it has to be viewed as an experimental "testbed," not something that a home barista can just go out and purchase. The same, I believe, can be said about your Brewtus. We are looking at things that mfrs. might easily do to expand the utility of their production machines, but we are not evaluating production machines.

So, looking at it from just the narrow reality that is my hacked, PID'd rotary Cimbali Junior, the answer is that you would have the boiler set at one temperature when making milk drinks and at one temperature when making straight shots. This is no more difficult or involved than changing the boiler setting on any of these double boiler machines. Given that milk drinks will hide minor imperfections in the espresso I think that it is MOST unlikely that one could really tell the difference in the quality of the espresso within the milk drinks due to having pushed up the boiler temp in order to froth more easily.

Temperature stability to small tenths of degrees has never been advocated as important in milk drinks. I think this is a red herring, to be honest.

As to a test of steaming capacity based on tips used, this is going to be a function of boiler size, heating element size and voltage, plus boiler temperature/pressure setting. I think it is pure physics and electrical engineering and doubt that you can come up with a test that is really going to differentiate among machines beyond these physical and electrical considerations. I promise you that if I bump my boiler temp up to 249F, with the element in my machine and its 2.5 liter boiler, that I can (literally) blow most any home machine out of the room. I'm just not sure that this proves anything or should be a consideration for anyone who really values tight temperature control when making straight shots, which is what I thought we were discussing in the first place:-)

The implied benefit of these newer dual boiler machines is their ability to produce straight shots under tight temperature control. Andy S. cautioned me before not to come up with a test that is so involved and hard to do that home users won't do it. In my opinion, steaming capacity and its impact on espresso shot quality is a red herring adding undue complexity that doesn't address the the primary issue. It is also something that can be manipulated by changing boiler temps on a variety of machines and since a number of these machines are designed to be adjusted, there is no real world corollary of using a machine set up for straight shots to then make milk drinks at the same settings. So, I just don't know how you could test this and combine the data in a way that would enable comparisons among machines.

If you have some idea of how to do this easily without making such a complicated test that won't deter people from using it, please make suggestions as to how to do this.

ken
p.s. the fact that we would come up with a straight shot temperature stability protocol does not preclude the development of some sort of milk drink protocol to be developed separately.
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Link to "Home Use Brew Temp protocol"by another_jim on Thu Jan 05, 2006 11:48 pm

Ken Fox wrote:My nominations for membership in this committee are Jim Schulman, Andy Schecter, and myself.
ken


Oy! Now I'll have to buy a logging meter.

The WBC test is an idealized replication of the heavy but highly irregula traffic patterns in cafes. A home machine protocol should be based on a similar idealization of home use.

My own home use and my sense of most others is:

-- Mostly single shots after long (excess of 1 hour) idle periods. Should just 1st shot stability and repeatability be conidered; or also the pita of getting the machine prepped?
-- Occasional multiple shots when testing blends or other enthusiasts drop by (note to handle the common the 2nd shot is always better effect)
-- Occasional multiple milk drinks for guests, followed perhaps by a straight shot for oneself.
-- While the overwhelming use is single shots from idle; people's justification for buying HXs is their capability of handling company and of doing multiple shots consistently. So while the from idle capacity may be weighted highly, the second two should be weighted higher than their actual occurance, since this is the raison d'etre of the machines.

I'm not proposing a test; I'd just like some feedback on whether this is a realistic summary of home use patterns.
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Link to "Home Use Brew Temp protocol"by Ken Fox on Fri Jan 06, 2006 12:24 am

another_jim wrote:Oy! Now I'll have to buy a logging meter.

The WBC test is an idealized replication of the heavy but highly irregula traffic patterns in cafes. A home machine protocol should be based on a similar idealization of home use.

My own home use and my sense of most others is:

-- Mostly single shots after long (excess of 1 hour) idle periods. Should just 1st shot stability and repeatability be conidered; or also the pita of getting the machine prepped?
-- Occasional multiple shots when testing blends or other enthusiasts drop by (note to handle the common the 2nd shot is always better effect)
-- Occasional multiple milk drinks for guests, followed perhaps by a straight shot for oneself.
-- While the overwhelming use is single shots from idle; people's justification for buying HXs is their capability of handling company and of doing multiple shots consistently. So while the from idle capacity may be weighted highly, the second two should be weighted higher than their actual occurance, since this is the raison d'etre of the machines.

I'm not proposing a test; I'd just like some feedback on whether this is a realistic summary of home use patterns.


I don't have any problem with including all these things in a test, although I would not combine the straight shot performance with the milk drink performance; the results should be reported separately. The solitary straight shot plus multiple straight shot runs could be combined in one test, but the milk drink results are going to be so different and so subjective (my view anyway) that they should be reported separately and the potential purchaser or user could weight them however he or she wanted based upon how they would intend to use the machine. Combining milk and straight shot results is, in my view, just going to produce meaningless scattershot results that no one is going to be able to interpret and that won't highlight the actual differences among machines.

As to what the user has to do before he initiates a shot run after idle (e.g. flushing, nothing, or whatever) this has to be determined by the individual tester. Since we are looking largely at first shot consistency and reproducibility, each machine model is apt to have approaches that will work and approaches that will not. It is hoped that by having a number of us out there doing this sort of testing we could actually come up with one or several methods that work with each machine to get it to perform to its best potential. What I have described on my Cimbali, the low boiler setting miniscule flush technique, is something I discovered by doing just this sort of testing and something I've not read about before. Perhaps people will come up with novel ways of getting the best out of a whole host of machines and this will help out everyone who either owns such a machine or is contemplating buying one. The only requirement as regards the test per se would be that the tester explain what it was he did in order to get the results that he posted. It would be up to those discussing these results in the future to determine if the preparation/flush routine was such a PITA as to render the machine less desireable; simple preparation/flush routines are obviously going to be preferred.

I should note, I should EMPHASIZE, that the purpose of setting up a home user protocol is not to come up with some sort of number (like a report card) that would enable one to say that a Brewtus scored 97 and a Silvia scored 85. I don't see any point in doing machine testing with that sort of endpoint. Instead, the idea would be to come up with some sort of definition of temperature stability in actual random home usage conditions, accompanied by a lot of descriptive material and some shot temperature graphs. One would then have a whole lot of DATA that one could use in comparing machines and trying to figure out how much one would gain if one upgraded from what one has to another machine. You could look at graphs of your own machine optimized for best performance and compare them to other machines. In the end, the person making the comparison is still going to have to consider other usability factors that are beyond the scope of this sort of limited temperature stability testing.

So, for example, you could have straight shot tests run at, say, 4 different temperatures chosen within the band of temps one might seek for straight shots. One could arbitrarily select 198, 200, 202, and 204F, which would more or less cover the range (or 203, 201, 199, 197, I care not). Each of these temps could have a total of say, 10 or 15 shots done with maybe half of them done as single shots after an idle period of 10 minutes or more (or pick 20 or 30 minutes, I just don't think it will matter much in the results and it would make the test take a lot longer to get through hence dissuading a lot of people from actually doing it). The other half of the total number of shots could be two or three two shot series and one or two longer series. All the shots should be superimposed on top of each other in a graph to see how reproducible the shots are regarding shape and temperature, and simple statistics could be applied.

We would probably find that a machine did better with one or two or three of the 4 temps tested and less well with the rest of them. The data could then either be combined into one number or statistic or expressed as results with the 4 different temps tested.

On to a milk test. Here is where I have no idea exactly what one would be testing and how one would express the results. Since tight temperature control of the espresso shot that is going into a milk drink probably isn't all that important, I'm not exactly sure what we would be measuring; frothing power, microfoam quality, speed of recovery? All of these things are going to vary by how the boiler temp is set and what steam tip one chose to use. I think you could more or less determine your results by how you gamed the test at the start by your boiler pressure/temp setting. I think the test parameter needs to be very focused or we are not going to know what to do with the observed results or how to use them to compare machines.

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Link to "Home Use Brew Temp protocol"by miKe mcKoffee on Fri Jan 06, 2006 1:22 am

Ken Fox wrote:We are testing multiple things here and getting way beyond the potential of a straightforward temperature stability test protocol to evaluate.

What I would say to you is, design a test and write it up, either in this thread or elsewhere. I do not think it is possible for you or anyone else to design such a protocol in a reproducible manner that can be used with different machines, scored in some sort of way to produce meaningful data. I could be wrong on that, so please go ahead and propose something.

As to multi shot runs, this is where I'd defer to the WBC protocol. It is certainly not the right way to test a home machine but if what you are looking for is a way to evaluate a machine through a bunch of repetitive shots over a short period of time, there already is a protocol for that, the WBC one. So, if people want to take their home machines through the WBC protocol and publish their findings, I think that is great. One who is interested in making a machine purchase can easily look at all the available information. If they entertain a lot and make lots of shots in series with their machine, they will want to pay attention to WBC test results. If they use their machine the way that most of us home barista types do, for a few shots a day after varying idle periods, then the home barista type protocol results would be more meaningful.

ken
I never said anything about running a series of shots in a short time frame ala the WBC. ANY HX or dual boiler prosumer machine is capable of a series of shots or series of shots and steaming. The question is or could be, in what recovery time. That is what's important to know for home use, not can the machine do a series with only 10sec recovery ala the WBC test. As you say, totally different need and hence criteria. You say including a shot series "is certainly not the right way to test a home machine" and I say who says so and why not?

If you only want to document what a machine can do pulling a couple shots, doesn't really matter to me. I've had the use of a Thermofilter and pretty much know the capabilities and limitations of my Bricoletta in all kinds of scenarios.

BTW, I know lots of people who entertain on occasions and pull series of shots and series of shots and steaming, so is your assumption and assertion "that most home barista types" don't even valid? I think not, atleast where's your data to support your claim?

If the protocol or protocols as Jim suggests doesn't test the various common home useages what good is it? Sure it's important to know how well that first shot from idle and various idle times can be. That is my main usage too. IMO just as important to know if a half dozen home roasting espresso f(r)iends are over how well I can pull a half dozen back to back shots and vary the shot temps and make caps etc. And yeah, the fact the I've hosted Gatherings of over two dozen such f(r)iends on more than one occasion does influence my input! And then there's the dinner party with another couple or two with after dinner brewings. Espresso is not just a "me" thing, it's also social, and not just at a cafe. Any home test protocol designed strictly for only a single persons use would be ridiculous and just as worthless as a home usage protocol as the WBC busy shop protocol IMO.

IMO a home testing protocol could or should be a tool for not only purchase decisions but just as or more importantly in aiding people finding the real capabilities and limitations of home machines under various conditions and usage patterns. A tool to help them use their machines effectively within each machines limitations. Maybe I'm looking at this differently than a bunch of graphs.
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miKe mcKoffee
 
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Link to "Home Use Brew Temp protocol"by Ken Fox on Fri Jan 06, 2006 2:14 am

miKe mcKoffee wrote:I never said anything about running a series of shots in a short time frame ala the WBC. ANY HX or dual boiler prosumer machine is capable of a series of shots or series of shots and steaming. The question is or could be, in what recovery time. That is what's important to know for home use, not can the machine do a series with only 10sec recovery ala the WBC test. As you say, totally different need and hence criteria. You say including a shot series "is certainly not the right way to test a home machine" and I say who says so and why not?

If you only want to document what a machine can do pulling a couple shots, doesn't really matter to me. I've had the use of a Thermofilter and pretty much know the capabilities and limitations of my Bricoletta in all kinds of scenarios.

BTW, I know lots of people who entertain on occasions and pull series of shots and series of shots and steaming, so is your assumption and assertion "that most home barista types" don't even valid? I think not, atleast where's your data to support your claim?

If the protocol or protocols as Jim suggests doesn't test the various common home useages what good is it? Sure it's important to know how well that first shot from idle and various idle times can be. That is my main usage too. IMO just as important to know if a half dozen home roasting espresso f(r)iends are over how well I can pull a half dozen back to back shots and vary the shot temps and make caps etc. And yeah, the fact the I've hosted Gatherings of over two dozen such f(r)iends on more than one occasion does influence my input! And then there's the dinner party with another couple or two with after dinner brewings. Espresso is not just a "me" thing, it's also social, and not just at a cafe. Any home test protocol designed strictly for only a single persons use would be ridiculous and just as worthless as a home usage protocol as the WBC busy shop protocol IMO.

IMO a home testing protocol could or should be a tool for not only purchase decisions but just as or more importantly in aiding people finding the real capabilities and limitations of home machines under various conditions and usage patterns. A tool to help them use their machines effectively within each machines limitations. Maybe I'm looking at this differently than a bunch of graphs.


It's simple, really. You seem to want a detailed machine evaluation, and the kind of test I am proposing won't and cannot provide that. In order to give the information you seek, one would need the type of detailed machine review that Dan Kehn or Mark Prince do on their websites. It is impossible or even silly to see a simple temperature consistency test as being some kind of detailed espresso machine review that will mirror your personal usage pattern. Rather, this is to be something similar to the WBC test but tailored more to the most usual home usage pattern, which is low volume. I don't think you can design any temperature stability test that tests both intermittent usage and occasional high repetitive shot performance unless you are talking about two separate tests. I would have no problem with two separate tests performed to look at these two very different usage patterns. It is combining the testing into one test that I would have a problem with because I think the information will be muddied.

For the record, my own testing of my PID'd Junior with low boiler pressure and tiny flushes would indicate it would do fine on such testing, being as I've carried shot series out to 7, 8, even 9 shots in a series and had very tight shot temperature consistency, as below, but I'm not trying to design a test that my own machine will excel at, rather trying to mimic what I think represents the most typical usage pattern of home users of this sort of equipment:

Image


I've served shot runs to visitors myself, and unless your houseguests know more about espresso than my houseguests, or are SCAA C members coming to visit you when the SCAA chooses to have their annual convention in your town, the truth of the matter is that most of your guests mirror typical average person espresso consumers; e.g. they ask for milk drinks or if they take a straight shot they wouldn't have a clue if it was brewed at 196.4 or 203.7F. Agonizing over espresso shot temperature stability on shot runs made en masse for people who happen to be over at your house for a meal seems to me like totally wasted effort. Not only this but you are apt to be somewhat preoccupied talking to these people or doing something else while you make these drinks. Do you really want to evaluate a machine based on performance in this setting?

The average home barista makes most of their shots for either themselves or themselves plus a significant other, most of the time. This is the setting in which espressomaking at home is the most challenging and the most demanding of the home barista because idle intervals vary and the machine is in a different state each time you approach it. I am proposing some sort of simple test regimin which will look at one and only one issue; how likely is it that you will get a shot at your selected shot temperature and profile when you randomly walk up to the machine and pull a shot, prefacing that shot with whatever routine you have found leads to the best first or first few shots. Period. It does not address usability for crowds, it does not address large dinner parties, it addresses random occasional shots pulled as they are pulled by most people who own machines for use in a home setting most of the time.

If what you want is a test on equipment that mirrors you own usage pattern, then you have no real choice other than to just go out and buy a Scace device and datalogger, and pull shots as you would like them pulled over whatever interval you think approximates your intended usage.

ken
Ken Fox
 
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