Help with Brew Temperature on E61 Machine without Thermocouple

[pfieber]

Hi

I have been using a Silvia and Rocky over the past few months and have now upgraded to an Anita, which arrived yesterday.
I have not used a HX machine before.

My question is without additional devices such as thermocouple how will I know what my temp really is when pulling a shot. My understanding is that unless you have a GS3 there is no absolute temp setting on any machine. It seems that the proper temp for a shot is one of the most important parts of the shot, but I find no way to get this exact temp by any adjustment on the machine. How does flushing give me somewhat of a close proximity to the temp I need. Sorry if I sound confused as I have read multiple posts and still don't have a good feel for temp surfing.

Paul

[HB]

My question is without additional devices such as thermocouple how will I know what my temp really is when pulling a shot.

The short answer: Practice and taste. How I Stopped Worrying and Learned to Love HXs gives you a framework to work with, but each espresso machine is a little different. Bob Yellin described his routine in his review of the Andreja Premium that you'll appreciate:

Just one note about E-61, HX machines, in general. I thought I had finally come to an end of "temp surfing" when I PID'd my Silvia. I had a rude awakening when I realized that controlling the brew temperature on an HX machine is difficult and a type of surfing (flushing, etc.) must be incorporated into one's technique. I really miss the ability to control brew temperatures and accurately change them at will. Because of this, I have spent a lot of time learning the correct flush timing and quantities using a portafilter with a thermocouple embedded, in order to be able to return to some degree of control over brew temperatures. Most people will not do these measurements and need not do them for good shots. All that's really needed is the development of a consistent flushing routine.

For example, using my machine, as a rough guide, I have found that if the machine has been sitting idle for 15 or 20 minutes or more, a flush of roughly 6 ounces will get a couple of seconds past the point where a flash-boil sputtering is heard from the brewhead. The temperature will then be suitable for pulling shots and from then on, if I just flush a couple of ounces every 1:15 (m:s) or so, it will pretty much stay at the correct brew temperature indefinitely. I often use the initially flushed water to heat my cups.

It may take a couple weeks of practice until you'll convince yourself that you're consistently judging the end of the "water dance" (video). Then you'll have a lifetime to worry about lots of other variables besides temperature like brew pressure, extraction speed, grind, dosage, tamp pressure, etc. You'll read a lot of posts talking about obtaining precisely temperature X, but having gone down that road, I wish that I had spent more time focusing on the taste and not the digital readout (long version in The problem is on the handle side of the portafilter).

[Grant]

Congrats on the new machine. After much confusion initially for me and the great help of the folks here....I am now down to a simple procedure that seems to work every time with excellent results. I wrote these down for my wife on a cheat sheet and she pulls excellent shots too....and she has no clue what she is doing...she just follows the checklist I gave her. A rough summary:

From Idle (90% of the time for me)
1) Measure/grind beans
2) Remove PF and dry basket with a clean towel.
3) Place empty cup under grouphead.
3) Dose into PF, distribute, tamp.
4) Start pump and watch/listen for end of water dance/sputtering (very easy to see & hear with no PF inserted) - heats the cup very well too! Multiple cups? Swap them around!
5) Continue water flow for 5 seconds past end of the water dance.
6) Dry cup(s) quickly, insert PF and pull shot immediately.

You can adjust temperature up/down by shortening/lengthening the amount of water that flows after the dance stops. Different machines and/or beans and/or boiler pressures may need a different "default" length of time after the water dance as well, but play around and see what work best. I don't take any "real" temperatures...basically I do everything by appearance/sound/taste.

I find it trickier (i.e. I guess) to find the right temp if you have used the machine on repeated shots, as sometimes I get a small amount of water dance/hissing (if I am slow between shots), and sometimes not...but I just wing it and rarely have any temp problems...if I am pulling repeat shots, just before inserting the PF I start the flow of water and watch/listen...sometimes I get a second or two of water dance so I will flush a couple extra seconds and then insert PF and pull my shot...if I see no water dance, I end the flush immediately and pull my shot.

Good luck...keep playing. It will all come together fast.

Grant

[RapidCoffee]

Hi

I have been using a Silvia and Rocky over the past few months and have now upgraded to an Anita, which arrived yesterday.
I have not used a HX machine before.

My question is without additional devices such as thermocouple how will I know what my temp really is when pulling a shot. My understanding is that unless you have a GS3 there is no absolute temp setting on any machine. It seems that the proper temp for a shot is one of the most important parts of the shot, but I find no way to get this exact temp by any adjustment on the machine. How does flushing give me somewhat of a close proximity to the temp I need. Sorry if I sound confused as I have read multiple posts and still don't have a good feel for temp surfing.

Paul

Hi Paul. The HX flush is really easy, and very well described in Dan's HX Love article. It's quite different from temp surfing a Silvia. You are basically eliminating a few ounces of overheated water from the heat exchanger before pulling a shot.

Hitting a precise brew temp is harder on an HX machine. This is partially offset by the flexibility you gain with the flush. If your shot is too sour, the brew temp may be too low - so flush a bit less, or wait a bit longer after the flush before pulling the next shot. If it's too bitter, the brew temp may be too high - so flush a bit more or pull the next shot immediately after the flush. It's not rocket science, and you don't need a thermocouple.*

Unless you get a nice even extraction, brew temp management is something of a moot point. An unevenly extracted shot will share some of the same taste imbalance - e.g., bitter flavors from overextracted portions of the puck. I strongly recommend getting a bottomless portafilter to ensure that you understand the mechanics of building a good puck. Once you get a nice even extraction, start playing around with flush volume and timing.

Enjoy your new machine! - John

*Although I'm glad some people have them, and are generous enough to share their results.

[pfieber]

Hi

Thanks for the replies in regards to getting my machine going. I have practiced all weekend to get my flush accurate, but I am having some problems. When I flush from an idle I only get maybe 15 sec before the dance seems to end and then it is very hard to tell as I hear very little hissing and steaming as I have read that I should. Is this a problem with the brew pressure? It reads 9 bar after the shot is pulled. Also when I pull a back to back shot I cannot keep the temp high enough to pull the shot. What would cause this?

Paul

[HB]

Is this a problem with the brew pressure?

No. Brew pressure = how hard the pump is working (~9 bar). Boiler pressure = temperature (1.1 bar = 255F). What you describe in terms of the water dance sounds normal. Try loosening the portafilter to make it easier to hear the flash boiling.

Also when I pull a back to back shot I cannot keep the temp high enough to pull the shot. What would cause this?

Different machines have different recovery times. You are probably flushing too much and not allowing enough time between shots. Generally speaking for semi-commercial E61s I've used, the time between shots with no flush varies from one minute to 1-1/2 minutes at around 1.1 bar (timing from the end of the prior shot). The "in between" time prior to when the HX will flash boil again is harder to judge without experience, so I recommend allowing a few minutes between shots until your routine is solid. That way you'll get an obvious water dance.

Also see Jim's $10 Method for Temperature Tuning an HX Machine. It describes the HX dynamics in "party mode."