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Help me with my new espresso machine design

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Link to "Help me with my new espresso machine design"by Martina on Fri Feb 17, 2006 9:53 am

Hi all you coffee experts

I am a complete novice when it comes to espresso machines but due to circumstances beyond my control ie. my final degree project is to redesign the espresso machine, I need to wise up on it. I am from, and studying in Ireland and as we are only starting to develop a coffee culture I could do with your help (anyone!). I am still in the research stage so what I need to know from the wise is about boilers :what happens if a boiler overfills - why would a boiler over fill - are there safety mechanisms to prevent this - what are they (sensors?)- what happens if they fail - how does it vent steam if it overflows ie pressure build up - does the boiler cease heating the water - any info on any or all of these or any random comment would be greatly appreciated and valued

Thank you for reading
Martina
:wink:
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Link to "Help me with my new espresso machine design"by betxs on Fri Feb 17, 2006 5:07 pm

I cannot help you with the design, but you might try posting at CoffeeGeek. http://www.coffeegeek.com/
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Link to "Help me with my new espresso machine design"by HB on Fri Feb 17, 2006 5:40 pm

betxs wrote:I cannot help you with the design, but you might try posting at CoffeeGeek.

Wow, today I see concrete evidence that HB has "arrived"! Someone on HB suggests posting on CG?!? :lol:

(For those who don't get the joke, it's like a local news channel viewer suggesting to a friend that they check out CNN as a national news source, just in case they had never heard of it).

Martina wrote:I am still in the research stage so what I need to know...

The short answer is that espresso machines have safety mechanisms guarding against the scenarios you describe. The more expensive ones have redundant safety features, or at least mitigate the negative consequences when things do go wrong. The Cimbali Junior scored the site's only perfect 10 for Materials & Workmanship partly based on its attention to these "what if" scenarios.
  • what happens if a boiler overfills - a safety pressure release valve atop the boiler opens. The boilers I've seen were factory tested at 2.0 bar; the pressure release valve will pop around 1.6 bar, IIRC.
  • why would a boiler over fill - example: auto-fill water sensor fails due to scale buildup.
  • are there safety mechanisms to prevent this - prevent? Not to my knowledge. Some machines have pump timeouts, i.e., the pump will not run longer than 1 minute. It reduces the potential damage.
  • how does it vent steam if it overflows - same safety pressure release valve on the boiler for water pressure works for steam pressure and is the more commonly reported failure, e.g., the pressurestat sticks closed and the heating element doesn't turn off. Boiler pressure rises until safety pressure release valve opens venting steam into the room (and startling anyone present at the time).
Good luck with your research project.
Dan Kehn
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Link to "Help me with my new espresso machine design"by Martina on Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:10 am

Hey Dan

Thanks a million for taking time and giving me advice

Cheers

Martina :D
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Link to "Help me with my new espresso machine design"by another_jim on Mon Feb 20, 2006 5:32 pm

Considering safety devices may be the last stage in the design, after the major elements have been thought out.

The basics:

-- Espresso is a 25mL single or 50mL double of coffee brewed from 6 to 9 grams or 12 to 18 grams of ground coffee
-- Brewing time is 25 to 30 seconds
-- Brewing pressure is 8 to 10 bar
-- Brewing temperature is 90C to 95C
-- The machine must also be able to generate 120C to 135C steam for frothing milk

The classic commercial espresso machine uses hand lever or spring powered pistons or a centrifugal motor for pressure, a large boiler and heat exchanger for the steam and water heating, and the coffee is handled manually with a portafilter and basket. The time, temperature, and pressure can be held within about 1/3 intervals of the acceptable range

The classic home machine has a much smaller boiler or thermoblock with two thermostats, one for brewing, one for steaming, and a small vibratory pump. In most home machines, the espresso is "out of range" for both pressure and temperature. The home machines we talk about on HB are the very expensive kind (since we're hobbyists) which do brew within commercial tolerances or better.

One trend is towards convenience -- Superautomatic grind and brew without requiring the operator to handle the coffee at all. Pod machines use preground capsules of coffee so the operator doesn't need to tamp or grind. The challenge for these machines is to equal the quality of the classic commercial machines. Any better mousetrap in the convenience area will make you very, very rich, since this is where the real money is going.

The other trend is towards precision -- as the convenience machines become as good as classic espresso machines, the "hand made" espresso at cafes or enthusiast home had better improve, or the cafes will be out of business, and the hobbyists out of a hobby. The action here is electronic pressure and temperature controls, brewing and steaming systems that are independent and can be controlled within 0.5C, pump designs that have controllable and flutter free pressure ramps. Improvements in this area will get you lots of admiration from us, and almost no money at all.
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Link to "Help me with my new espresso machine design"by Martina on Tue Feb 21, 2006 4:56 am

Thanks Jim

As you said all of the above is vital research to start with and has been done after visiting many coffee shops and seeing their machines in operation. However, people who worked in these coffee shops, I would'nt go so far as to call them Barista's knew very little else about the machine other than the basics of how it was operated. Any way thank you for your comments, every piece of information is more than valuable!

Cheers
Martina :wink:
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Link to "Help me with my new espresso machine design"by Martina on Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:09 am

If any one has any schematics of how the internal workings are laid out I would really appreciate this. One of my team members has drawn one up already just simply by taking a 2 gauge machine apart and from here trying to demonstrate through the schematic the flow of water, vein pumps etc, etc....

Thanks
Martina :wink:
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Link to "Help me with my new espresso machine design"by HB on Tue Feb 21, 2006 5:57 am

Martina wrote:If any one has any schematics of how the internal workings are laid out I would really appreciate this.

This parts and schematic diagrams for Valentina (BFC Junior) are very good.
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Link to "Help me with my new espresso machine design"by Martina on Tue Feb 21, 2006 11:13 am

Thanks again Dan you're a star!
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Link to "Help me with my new espresso machine design"by hperry on Tue Feb 21, 2006 3:51 pm

You might want to take a look at this thread http://www.home-barista.com/forum...spective-t759.html to see some of the issues one of the best new machines addresses. Also going down through a number of conversations on HB re: the problems in achieving great espresso may well suggest issues like accurate temperature within .5 degrees, pressure control, design of the grouphead, pre-infusion, 1 boiler or 2 boilers etc., etc. that need addressing.

In addition, its generally recognized that the single route to good coffee is the barista's skills. Because they vary all over the map do you want to design your machine so that it eliminates either the problems or successes created by the human factor?

Should be a fun project - tough to do in a quarter or semester I would guess.
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Link to "Help me with my new espresso machine design"by Martina on Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:27 pm

HELLO AGAIN

This time I need information of pumps ... which one most used for commercial machines? (rotary pump?) how it works in a nut shell, keep just getting company info trying to flog their own products need some honest to god info anything you know...anything!! pressures internal parts, what are the pressures at for just hot water, and for the steam wand i know obviously the group is 9 bars also any info at all on the motor would help no end

Thanks in advance
Martina :?:
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Link to "Help me with my new espresso machine design"by HB on Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:40 pm

Procon pumps are very popular and they have a great informative website, including this isometric view of a rotary pump.
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Link to "Help me with my new espresso machine design"by Martina on Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:47 pm

thanks dan

If you have any info on motors i would really appreciate it

cheers
:wink:
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Link to "Help me with my new espresso machine design"by shadowfax on Wed Mar 01, 2006 2:54 pm

My understanding is that the popular motor for home machines with rotary pumps is an Ulka 128p...

http://www.ulkamotors.com/inglese/prodotti.htm

maybe the motor specs could point you in the right direction.
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Link to "Help me with my new espresso machine design"by Martina on Thu Mar 02, 2006 6:32 am

To be honest i'm really only interested in components (motors) for commercial coffee machines as this is the brief I have been given!
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Link to "Help me with my new espresso machine design"by shadowfax on Thu Mar 02, 2006 6:58 am

could be wrong, but I think that they use something QUITE similar if not the 220V model of that motor--on most commercial machines.

Rotary pumps and their motors are rather expensive and are thus not on many home machines... the only one that comes readily to mind is the Fiorenzato Bricoletta, and it would be a light commercial machine if it had a bigger boiler, methinks. That motor is definitely *not* a lightweight, from what I understand. I continue to posit it as having the specs and motor hookup you'll need for a procon pump for a commercial machine.
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Link to "Help me with my new espresso machine design"by Martina on Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:30 am

Are pumps and motors and boilers all the same across the board of machines ie. auto/semi/fully and super automatic?
Martina :?:
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