Hard crema

[andywaugh]

Hi,

Originally posted this topic on coffeegeeks, but was recommended to try here, where all the lever junkies hang out!

I have a La Pavoni Pro lever and a Rancilio Rocky, and am enjoying every minute of it..

But the crema I have been producing recently is a bit hard, and breaks up into little ice-bergs when I pour in milk.. I have been told this may be from using water that is too hot.. if so, what steps can I take to remedy the situation?

I am using freshly-roasted, instantly ground beans, on a rocky setting of 10.. Interested to know which setting other Rocky, Pavoni owners are using..

Regards,
Andrew.

[mogogear]

So... welcome

How hot is the water coming out your PF spouts?

How old is your milk?

What do you call crema? Will it stay divided if you drag a spoon through it?

How's your tamping technique- is your puck staying intact?

Do you use a Thermometer while frothing your milk?

What is your pressure stat set at on your Machine( your gauge reading)?

Are you attempting Latte Art?

When was the last time you cleaned your Rocky?

10?? the number means nothing to me, how does it pull? Does it choke ? have you tried finer???

I am no one of import- I am merely doing triage for the ...............La Pavoni team.

Answer the questions for they could show up momentarily with little or no warning. DO NOT ATTEMPT TO ADJUST YOUR SET.


Take two Ibuprophen, elevate your feet... and wait.... they will come.

[andywaugh]

How hot is the water coming out your PF spouts?
I will try to measure this for you, what temperature does your water come out?

How old is your milk?
Brand new

What do you call crema? Will it stay divided if you drag a spoon through it?
Stay divided? I don't understand the question.. What do you call crema? I'm getting about 5mm of crema on my shots.

How's your tamping technique- is your puck staying intact?
Tamping technique is okay, the puck is staying intact

Do you use a Thermometer while frothing your milk?
No, but I go by feel, and the milk is not too hot at least.

What is your pressure stat set at on your Machine( your gauge reading)?
1

Are you attempting Latte Art?
No

When was the last time you cleaned your Rocky?
It's brand new

10?? the number means nothing to me, how does it pull? Does it choke ? have you tried finer???
10 is the grind setting, I've tried many settings, thanks. It pulls very firmly, I need to use the other hand to steady the machine, takes about 25 seconds to pull a shot.

[andywaugh]

The water comes out at about 75 celsius (175F) - is that about right? I would have though it would be hotter.. I only have a candy thermometre which may not be accurate at such relatively low temps...!

[timo888]

How old is your milk?
Brand new

Ayrshire

Brown Swiss

Guernsey

Holstein

Jersey



But hot water that's too hot does seem a likely explanation. It's messing up the surfactant properties of the foam. Before pulling a shot, try placing a cold wet dish cloth on the group to draw out some of the heat from the metal, so that it can better remove some additional heat from the water.

Regards
Timo

[mogogear]

The water comes out at about 75 celsius (175F) - is that about right? I would have though it would be hotter.. I only have a candy thermometre which may not be accurate at such relatively low temps...!

175 seems pretty cold to me- I am not a La Pavoni owner now though.

[HB]

175 seems pretty cold to me

Measuring the in-cup temperature as he did, that's about what I would expect. You'd struggle to get a reading over 185F with a candy thermometer.

But the crema I have been producing recently is a bit hard, and breaks up into little ice-bergs when I pour in milk.. I have been told this may be from using water that is too hot.. if so, what steps can I take to remedy the situation?

How's the espresso taste before adding milk? What's the texture of the microfoam? Is it sweet? Airy and dry? Other?

[espressoperson]

But the crema I have been producing recently is a bit hard, and breaks up into little ice-bergs when I pour in milk.. I have been told this may be from using water that is too hot.. if so, what steps can I take to remedy the situation?

Hello Andy,

Recently? So what has recently changed in your setup to account for the crema change? The condition of your machine? Your method? Your coffee source? Your milk? ...

Also, is the crema on all your shots the same? Many lever machines will heat up with several shots in a row or if they are left on for a long time. So you shouldn't have overheating problems with the first few shots from a recently started machine.

And another source of messed up crema could be detergent residue in cups, like the ones that come from my dishwasher. They need a good rinse in boiling water before they're ready for espresso.

[cannonfodder]

The first thing I thought of was detergent residue in the cup. I never put my cups in a dishwasher and only use a very mild soap when washing followed by a through wiping rinse with a clean dishtowel. Could it be detergent residue in the frothing pitcher? The crema would appear normal until the milk hit the cup, then bammo.

Oh, Timo, I prefer Jersey, but the real question is do you know how to hand milk a cow without having her step on your foot.

[HB]

Detergent residue? I thought the "sheeting action" of the rinse agent was supposed to fix that (the commercials don't mention the rinse agent leaves its own perfumes). But I am reminded of the thread Preheating cups removes soap residue too and especially the picture of Abe's fading cup:



Don't tell the health inspectors, but I switched to a no-soap cleaning with very hot water for the collection cups.

[timo888]

Oh, Timo, I prefer Jersey, but the real question is do you know how to hand milk a cow without having her step on your foot.

When I was in junior high, I lived across the street from a small farm with a few cows, though I didn't see much milking. I am trying to remember what they did when they milked. IIRC, they pressed the side of their heads (ear and cheek) against the cow's ribs and leaned into it with their shoulder. Did that simulate a calf's pressure and keep the cow calm and still? Or is this a trick question? Show her a baseball glove and tell her to stand still or else?

Regards
Timo

[cannonfodder]

This is way OT, but yes you sit with your back to the cows head, if you sit at a right angle to the cow, one foot is dangerously close to the hind quarter. Leaning into the side of the animal may calm it some, but prevents it from being startled. Ever watch someone walk up to a horse, you start at the muzzle, then walk around to the flank usually keeping hand contact with the side as you move around. If you just walk up behind and put you hand on the flank, it may startle and kick you across the barn. And yes, I have milked cows and goats, but it has been more years than I can count. Now I just go to the megamart and purchase my milk and cheese.

Now back to your regularly scheduled program...

On the subject of milk, I have had unusual results from milk before as well. Occasionally, I will get a batch that won't froth very well or dissipates quickly. Could it be a one off problem with a particular brand of milk or production lot?

[timo888]

There's definitely a difference among milks in the way they froth. We tend to have organic 1% or Fat-Free in the house and of the three or four brands we buy at the grocery store (they often run out of our favorite) only one makes good microfoam, Stonyfield Farm. The others get very large bubbles and scald easily. Maybe the Stonyfield cows are calmer? We need to correlate the bovine stress/calmness data with objective microfoam data.

Regards
Timo

[T.J.]

It seems to me that you are brewing coffee that has not fully de-gassed.

Although I cannot see or taste the espresso shot, the explanation that the crema "breaks into tiny icebergs" is in line with brewing of freshly roasted coffees.

Try a coffee that is more than 5 days old which has been given an opportunity to properly de-gas....then grind and brew...see if the results differ.

It also seems that your brew temp may be too high.

TJ

[King Seven]

It can also mean - and I don't mean to be rude here - a pour quality extraction (channels etc) where the liquid is too thin, lacking the rich thickness of good espresso, causing it to drain from the crema quicker, leaving the remaining bubbles weak, dry and er... floaty.
Very fresh coffee is harder to work with (IMHO) so people tend to see those symptoms with a fresh coffee.