Grinder setting for single baskets and double baskets

[bushnell_a]

Having a problem at work these days. We recently switched from using only double baskets to using both doubles and singles. However, we've found that the single basket requires a much coarser grind than the doubles. Specifically, using the same grinder setting, we'll get a 20-second shot using the doubles, and a 45-second shot using the single. Another way to look at it is that if I optimize the grinder for the single basket, it's much too coarse for the double (10-15 second shots), and if I optimize the grinder for the double basket, it chokes the single.

We have a very large staff, and on a busy night as many as 20 different people may use the machine, so I don't want anyone fiddling with the grinder except me. I can make things work by overdosing the double and underdosing the single, but this sort of finesse is difficult to teach to a staff of 50 captains, backwaiters, busboys, and bartenders, many of whom simply don't give a damn.

So my question: has anyone experimented with different manufacturer's single baskets and double baskets and found any combination that works with the same grinder settings? For instance, the Faema stock single basket with a Rancilio stock double basket. Currently I'm using a commercial Gaggia XD with the stock single and double; 58mm portafilters.

Thanks in advance.

[Java Man]

I have no experience in a production setting, so this may not be very helpful. I found the same thing as you (singles needed coarser grind) on my home equipment (Rancilio Rocky grinder, Wega Mininova espresso machine). Most didn't believe this, but it was very obvious to me. However, I recently changed grinders and now the same grind setting works equally well for the same single and double baskets that needed different grind settings with the previous grinder. They're the stock 58mm baskets that came with my Wega. There are no mfrs. logos or other clues about who made the baskets. The single is deeper than most singles, and looks like an inverted mexican hat. It makes a ~1.25 oz. shot in ~ 30 seconds with 12 grams of coffee. My double produces a ~ 2 oz. shot in ~ 30 seconds using 18 grams of coffee with the same grind.

Rick

[luca]

Hi there,

We had exactly the same problem with our singles and doubles ... but we did find that, if it was really and truly necessary to use the single, we could just dose it level, then use the mazzer doser lid to scoop out the same volume each time, then tamp that. But we very, very seldom needed to use the single. If the place truly is busy, the staff should be able to look down the order stream and do pretty much everything with doubles.

If you have 20 people using the machine in one shift, you REALLY need ONE standard dosing technique and I think that just making a double and throwing away one is probably worth it to maintain consistency. If you're doing a milk-based drink, you can extract the first 30mL from a double and cut the shot off short to get the darker, more chocolatey flavours coming through ...

... just my $0.02.

I should also add that when we have coffeegeek sessions, we often pull shots with a monster single basket. They taste very clean. And it's funny as hell to be using a 10g single basket from an old gaggia Carezza in a Synesso ;P

Cheers,

Luca

[Wescott]

I am only a customer, but I have observed that my favorite cafe has chosen to waste the coffee rather than finesse the settings two different ways.

I've watched them time and again fill an order for a single by running one spout into the drip tray.

Luca, your idea of choosing which portion of the double pour to serve as a single sounds interesting too.

[HB]

We have a very large staff, and on a busy night as many as 20 different people may use the machine, so I don't want anyone fiddling with the grinder except me. I can make things work by overdosing the double and underdosing the single, but this sort of finesse is difficult to teach to a staff of 50 captains, backwaiters, busboys, and bartenders, many of whom simply don't give a damn.

I've had some pretty miserable espressos served by part-time baristas from traditional equipment. If you want to stay with it, I would standardize and simplify as much as possible. Top-flight cafes like Intelligentsia standardize on baskets and techniques like the "Chicago Chop".

Not to be a heretic, but I have to ask... why haven't you switched to a super-auto?

[bushnell_a]

I agree with having a standard dosing technique, and in fact we do. We use a Schomer-type dosing an leveling regimen, and when we were only using double baskets, everything was working swimmingly. I recently purchased smaller demitasse cups, however, which allows us to serve a true 1-ounce single, so I brought the single basket into play as well.

In fact, it's because we all use the same dosing/leveling technique that I'm trying to find a different single basket/double basket combination. If I can solve the problem without having to retrain the entire staff, so much the better.

Not to be a heretic, but I have to ask... why haven't you switched to a super-auto?

Not heretical, in fact, many high-end restaurants have made that switch. My limited experience with super-autos has been that the best shots from them taste like strong coffee, but not espresso. My experience with waitstaff ("part-time baristas") using traditional equipment has been that the worst shots taste like strong coffee, but not espresso. However, once they learn what good espresso tastes like, and I do encourage them to drink straight shots, they take an active interest in learning what makes a good shot. The end result is that while the bad shots are no worse than can be found at Starbucks, the good shots are very good, and (this being San Diego) often better than any other restaurant is serving.

If the place truly is busy, the staff should be able to look down the order stream and do pretty much everything with doubles.

If you have 20 people using the machine in one shift, you REALLY need ONE standard dosing technique and I think that just making a double and throwing away one is probably worth it to maintain consistency.

I'd agree with you about looking down the order stream if I were in a coffee shop setting. However, we are a restaurant, and usually a waiter is building a tray of coffees for only one table, usually a party of 2-6 people. The order is usually a mix of a couple cappuccinos (which use a double shot as a base), a cuppa joe, and a single espresso.

At my last job, we actually did use the "make 2, throw one out" technique for singles, although with me around (and it being a low-volume operation), the unused shot was rarely thrown anywhere but into my gullet. I was hoping to go a different route here, thus the question about baskets.

[Psyd]

the good shots are very good, and (this being San Diego) often better than any other restaurant is serving.

NOW you tell me! I just got back from SD, and had a double capp down the street from the Del Mar. The steam wand had old milk on it, and the grinder's doser was chock full of grounds. My shot took twelve seconds. I'da killed to get someone that cares that much about what ends up in the cup. Please tell me that you are in the gaslamp area?

At my last job, we actually did use the "make 2, throw one out" technique for singles, although with me around (and it being a low-volume operation), the unused shot was rarely thrown anywhere but into my gullet.

I'd make that a standard. Anyone that has to make a single gets the other side of the double. It'll encourage your 'baristiwaiters' to work hard at getting decent espresso. Or, it could be traded on the floor, like cigarettes in prison!

[bushnell_a]

Sorry, we're up in the UTC area. Although if you are in Gaslamp, go down to Cafe Moto (10th & J, or thereabouts) and ask their opinion of local shops. Many operations in town get their beans from Moto.

[Psyd]

Sorry, we're up in the UTC area. Although if you are in Gaslamp, go down to Cafe Moto (10th & J, or thereabouts) and ask their opinion of local shops. Many operations in town get their beans from Moto.

Shoot, even worse. I stood in line forever at the Starbucks at LJ Village Dr., and Regents. Ah well, at least I got to play the local muni course while I was there!
Let me know the name of the place, I'll send friends. PM me, if you prefer.

[bushnell_a]

(...thread drift...)

Donovan's Steak and Chop House.


(/...thread drift...)

[eastpresso]

There have been a similar discussions on the German 'Kafee-Netz' forum where people favored the La Marzocco single. Only the inner 'cylinder' is filled (picture here http://www.kaffee-netz.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=9237) and a second tamper is used (some ideas shown here http://www.kaffee-netz.de/board/viewtopic.php?t=2640
The grinder is not adjusted. Personally, I do not have any experience with this solution but maybe you want to give it a shot ?

[mattwells]

//THREAD DRIFT

I got to play the local muni course while I was there!

Muni Course??


THREAD DRIFT\\

[Psyd]

//THREAD DRIFT
Muni Course??
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Sorry, my drive tends to drift on the 'Municipal Golf Course' (in this case, Torrey Pines) as much as the topic tends to drift when I start to drink my own espresso...