Getting started with the Vibiemme DoubleDomo Super - Page 6

[annp]

Nice. I hadn't thought about the water reservoir tray being some of the vibration... The only other source for me is the drip tray.. Not sure what can be done about that really.

Thank you!

Really? The drip tray in the front of the machine rattles? Hmmm?!

Mine fits pretty tight - you kinda have to shove the top (with the wire mesh) under the flared out sheet metal on front of the machine and the drip tray drawer presses into it's sliders firmly, eliminating any vibration.

Have you been able to identify which part of the drip tray assembly is making the noise?

Ann

[buzzmc]

It might be the water reservoir deal... I need to do some more isolating to try and quiet it up.

Back to my original problem, light crema: Let's say I up the temp by *10* degrees F, and end up with a 30 second shot that's still light in color... Where else do I look? I've been slowly upping the temp where the PID is set at 230 now, and conventional wisdom says the offset's probably 14-18F, we'd be at 212, which should be quite a bit too high.

Grind finer and tamp with less pressure?

For reference, with the same coffee at the shop who roasts it, I'm 6? shades lighter... Significantly lighter, and the taste just isn't there... It's bland is the best description I can give.

Still makes good latte's.. But I want to make good espresso's dangit

[annp]

...Back to my original problem, light crema: Let's say I up the temp by *10* degrees F, and end up with a 30 second shot that's still light in color... Where else do I look? I've been slowly upping the temp where the PID is set at 230 now, and conventional wisdom says the offset's probably 14-18F, we'd be at 212, which should be quite a bit too high.

Grind finer and tamp with less pressure?

For reference, with the same coffee at the shop who roasts it, I'm 6? shades lighter... Significantly lighter, and the taste just isn't there... It's bland is the best description I can give.

Still makes good latte's.. But I want to make good espresso's dangit

Ok, from what I know the PID is giving your boiler temp - so group temp is going to be less (please, someone clarify this if I am incorrect). I got an idea of this from http://www.1st-line.com/cofffact/cofffact.htm (scroll down to the VBM manual). On page 4 of the manual that doesn't quite describe our machine, because this is for an HX machine - its got some detail as to the difference between boiler bars of pressure on the gauge, the actual temp in the boiler and the approximate brew temp. Hmmmm - quite a difference. I'd be neat to verify this with a Scace device. (Hello, someone with a Scace device!)

Along those lines, I've got my PID set to 101 degrees C.

Ok, my grind on the VBM - much more fine than I ever used with Anita. If I remember right from reading your posts, you've got a Quickmill as well, an Andreja, if I remember right. I think, with the exception of swively no burn steam wands and some other goodies, our machines share some of the same parts and the same pump.

The last two mornings I've used the VBM I've ground even finer on my Macap. This morning was pretty darn near perfect. And my tamping has had to get a lot better, a lot more exacting and careful, otherwise I can see channeling on the underside of the naked portafilter. Initally, what was perfectly fine tamping on Anita gave me all kinds of spritzing on the VBM. Basically, I've had to refine my technique, considerably, as the VBM appears to be far less forgiving to my own sloppiness! So its not that I'm tamping harder - just making sure that I'm super uniform. I'm actually thinking of replacing my old Protamp, which isn't sized very well, with something that is a much closer fit in an LM triple basket.

Anyway, a grind that would choke Anita makes a nice stripey extraction with a really pretty result in the shot glass with the VBM. I don't get quite the perfect cone I got in Anita - but my espresso is really good on the VBM!

And I'm sorry - I've not timed my shots, crouched down there watching the underside of the naked portafilter - because timing, like my dose weight, is so subjective to the coffee I'm drinking.

So try grinding a little finer. Also depending on your grinder (because I had this problem with my commercial SM90 with doser) make sure you aren't getting any left over coffee from previous grinder adjustments in your current attempt. I've got to sweep the inside circular spout of the Macap really throughly after I grind and cycle the on switch a couple of times, otherwise it can retain a couple of grams just in the spout.

The other thing that happened to me, was after 2/3 a lb of coffee in sink shots, I couldn't taste differences anymore. Luckily I had a test subject, who could tell me things - but if you don't - step away from the machine...

Ann

[cannonfodder]

Try to go ristretto'ish. Dose 14-15 grams, tighten up you grind, lighten the tamp (use two fingers) and shoot for 1 to 1.5 ounces in 38-40 seconds. That includes the preinfusion cycle, 8-10 seconds after you engage the pump the drips start, then another 30 seconds to the end and see what happens. I would drop you PID back down as well.

[buzzmc]

Frustrated, doh!

I tightened up the grind... two notches. Light tamp, choked machine. Backed off a notch, still choked the machine. Back to my normal grind, and what I think of as a 'medium' tamp, then I'm back to my normal results... Very uniform in color, light color, and somewhat thin espresso.

Thankfully I figured out how to steam milk so lattes are still acceptable... But I'm perplexed

[buzzmc]

Update on espresso..

New beans today... PID's at 226... I think that's too hot... The espresso was too hot to drink, comfortably anyway...

Espresso had lots of crema, 80% of the cup, but quickly dissipated. Taste was ok... I think it lacked "body" or complexity maybe, for lack of my descriptions... BUt it wasn't really foul, so that's an improvement.

I think one more thing that's been missing so far w/the VBM is any sort of tiger stripping/mottling, which I've always managed to get w/the other machines I've used.

Tomorrow I'll take the PID down some more.. probably 220, as the coffee I have is supposedly best brewed at 199-202...

[annp]

Since I want to keep Anita's Rancillo bottomless portafilter with her kit, I purchased one specifically for the VBM from Espresso Care and received it today.

Also suggested and included was an 8mm gasket.

Wow! What an amazing difference.

While I was really pleased with how well my shots have been tasting and the extractions look pretty good, I wasn't quite getting the same perfect cone I'd gotten with Anita.

Now I am - I'm not sure if it is entirely the differences in the portafilter or the gasket, but I'm getting shots that look even prettier and run longer before they blond.

As soon as I've got Anita out of the way and can get my camera in my work space, I'll post some pics!

Ann

[Thatchmo]

So are any of you LOVING the new DoubleDomo or are you waiting for the upgraded boilers to comment?

It is top of my list for my new machine....I've heard so much good stuff about the HX version...

Was just wondering about everyone's first reactions!

Thanks!

[networkcrasher]

I love mine - the espresso extractions are wonderful. I'm definitely looking forward to the new boiler as I think it'll make my milk stretching a LOT better. Next on my list is to add some material to quiet it down a bit, but I'll be jealous of the rotary whenever that ships stateside!

[buzzmc]

Timing shots... 25-30 seconds being "ideal". When does the clock start? When you flip the lever, or when you start to see espresso falling in the cup? Sad to admit if my timing's off, since I've always timed shots from beginning of flipping the lever.

[HB]

When does the clock start? When you flip the lever, or when you start to see espresso falling in the cup? Sad to admit if my timing's off, since I've always timed shots from beginning of flipping the lever.

I've always used pump start time (Timing of espresso extraction starts when? and its redux elaborate). For the SCAA barista competitions, the rule is 20 to 30 seconds from the time the pump starts. For ristrettos, the guidelines are extended around 10 seconds. Given differences in personal taste profile preference and given that some espresso machines have long dwell times (E61s are around 5-7 seconds) and some have practically none (La Marzocco, Elektra), these recommendations should be tweaked as needed.

For what it's worth, I rarely time an espresso pour. I can estimate ~25 seconds with enough accuracy without a stopwatch, and besides, I would cut off the extraction if it showed signs of blonding independent of the elapsed time. I would only worry about it if an apparent longer/shorter timing was confirmed by an off balance taste (e.g., sourness -> too fast pour, edgy -> too slow pour).

[buzzmc]

I ask because I think (I should go look) that a light colored pour could also be an indication of a fast pour... And I think my pours are fast... I'm going to tighten the grind one notch and not change anything else and see what happens tonight. I've had enough shots with this batch that I know what's going on with it at least ,so it should be a good test... But with my machine right now I'm 'mentally' counting out only around 20-22 seconds from the pull of the lever... Still fast by any standard.

[buzzmc]

One click... Big diff... Much better looking pull... The mental count was more like 30-35... seemed a little long... But it looked good, and tasted a lot better. :thumbs up:

[Thatchmo]

Bryan....What grinder are you using?

[annp]

One click... Big diff... Much better looking pull... The mental count was more like 30-35... seemed a little long... But it looked good, and tasted a lot better. :thumbs up:

Yay!

How many ounces are you getting? And did you find a home for your old machine?

I've had fun with two different coffees this week. They both required different grinds, which meant that I ground a shot, extracted it and had to make an educated guess as to finer or coarser and how much of an adjustment.

I changed coffees this morning and was happy to have only made two sink shots before my extraction actually looked "correct." I felt pretty lucky! And it was really good.

Monday, Java Vino is roasting a new batch of Monsooned Malabar, which is kind of my litmus coffee for the VBM. I struggled with it on Anita because it needed a really long cooling flush and I never did verify the actual brew temp. It'll be fun to set the PID to what I think is right and see what I get.

Ann

[annp]

So are any of you LOVING the new DoubleDomo or are you waiting for the upgraded boilers to comment?

I am!

Because I make one latte at a time I've not run out of steam. However, it does kinda lack for making big mugs of tea. I can also see that if I was to make smaller multiple drinks for parties and want to steam a larger quantity of milk as I'm pulling a bunch of shots - I'd just not have enough steam volume.

The fact that VBM is offering a solution before they do a greater product release makes me feel as if they are really committed to making a good product.

Other than that, I'm really pleased with the temp stability and quality of the espresso I'm making. I'm also very much looking forward to someone with a Scace who can provide some validation as to the PID temp and the actual brew temp. I know there is going to be some difference. It'll be interesting to see how accurate my taste=temp estimation is.

And since I was bound and determined at one point to get a GS3 (before the Franke debacle), even being one of the "less than 50" on the list I don't feel disappointed at all. I was thinking I might be of the mind that "I'd settled for less," and start plotting an Elektra, seeing the VBM as a step up from Anita, but not really the machine I'd want to spend every morning with. But I'm not, I'm pleased.

I'm also happy I didn't need to spend 7K to do it, plus the eventual grinder upgrade that GS3 owners seem to be doing. Potentially spending 9K with tax and delivery and all that stuff to make coffee.... Mmmmm, I'd be embarrassed to say I'd done that - its just a little ostentatious.

Spending less $ and then having to develop a skill set to make awesome coffee on my perfectly adequete equipment just seems more desireable to me.


Ann

[downunder]

I am also liking mine a lot - it did get beaten up by UPS - although the box was in perfect shape it must have come to a sudden halt on one of their distribution slides as the brew boiler was 20 degrees off vertical! - Jim sent the photos to Vibiemme who responded immediately with a plan to provide (going forward) additional mounting for the boilers beyond just the tubing lines - along with a plan to replace the steam boiler with a larger one - very impressive responsiveness! - my shots using Blue Bottle Hayes Valley Espresso are really good - better to my taste than the shots I enjoyed at Espresso Vivace in Seattle this week - however their microfoam is in a whole other class - so now awaiting the new boiler and more practice - I too had a GS3 on order and just could not see the value at the new asking price - and now I am really pleased that the DoubleDomo is treating us to shots that taste better than most any I've had pulled on the legendary La Marzoccos - Jim at 1st-Line has been excellent with support - a pleasure to do business with. All in all I am delighted.

[annp]

So what is everyone running for brew pressure on their VBM DD's these days?



Enquiring minds want to know!

Ann

[Grant]

Just wanted to check in/post a PID setting as I am doing some playing today with a new machine. Vibiemme double boiler with PID set to 105 Celsius, is producing a nice flat 200 F at the portafilter (Scace measurement). I do find that I need to do a 2-3oz "heating" flush though...nose seems a little cool to just walk up and pull. It is a little chilly in the house with the doors/windows open and a light breeze though, so I am sure the environment is sucking the heat off the group.

[Jester]

My Vibiemme is finally in transit after a 4 1/2 month wait! I'm going to make sure that I follow the instructions that were posted at the beginning of this thread. Is there anything else I should be doing/thinking about as I prep the machine for it's first shot?