Getting a good shot from Silvia? - Page 2

[jesawdy]

If that's the case, perhaps I am way over-dosed; the bolt routinely drills a hole in my pucks (before and after extracting). I'll do some guesstimated down-dosing and re-post if that solves my problems.

I used to be in the exact same situation... I feel my shots are improved now. At that point I was at 18-20g dose. With a coarse grind, you may be at less weight?

You mentioned the flow stopping occasionally at 20 seconds.... that could be from overcompression of the swelled grounds against the shower screen choking the shot.

FYI - Your unbranded "double" looks like an La Marzocco triple.

I usually do not use the Rancilio basket, I will pull one this afternoon and note the relation to the ridge. I use the "LM" ridgeless 14g double basket. My Torr tamper is finishing about flush with the rim. The tamper is ~12mm thick at the outer edge.

[DC]

Thanks very much for your help, It'd be really useful to know how full the rancilio basket is for you.

By the way, I posted a video of the effect I see towards the end of this thread, along with all the things I'd tried to fix it. I know it screams 'distribution issues' but nothing I've tried has affected it consistently in the weeks since then (bearing in mind I've fixed the donut extraction and sprites issues)

Dave

[jesawdy]

Dave-

Okay, I looked at your extraction video and the pictures of your spent puck in the other thread. I would say that you are grinding much coarser than I am nowadays. FWIW, I think there are several levels of grind/dose that will work... let your tastebuds be your guide.

I got out the Rancilio double basket for you this afternoon, and I have the 'jitters' right now .

Here's what I found, I didn't get to the perfect extraction, the extraction was a bit more blond at the cutoff than I typically do, but the cup and the appearance in the cup did not suffer at all. I had to fine up the shot and reduce the dose to get to the same headspace I have been using for the "LM" ridgeless basket. The Rancilio is a few mm shorter. As I worked the dose/grind down, I went from about the middle of the basket ridge, the bottom of the ridge, and completely below the ridge, but please note that I am using a convex tamper.

Basket, Dose, Beverage weight, Brew Ratio, Notes
"LM" ridgeless double, 16.3g, 25.8g, 63.2%, Rocky at 8, basket almost full after WDT, Torr tamper about flush with basket rim at final tamp
Rancilio double, 14.6g, 26.2g, 55.7%, Rocky at 8, basket almost full after WDT, tamper proud at tamp, no screw impression on lock, heavy screen/screw impression after spent, shot ran fast 20-23 sec
Rancilio double, 14.3g, 23.8g, 60.0%, Rocky at 7, basket less full after WDT, tamper slightly proud at tamp, no screw impression on lock, no screen/screw impression after spent, 25-27 sec
Rancilio double, 13.0g, 27.6g, 47.1%, Rocky at 6, basket well below full after WDT, tamper flush at tamp, no screw impression on lock, no screen/screw impression after spent, 25-27 sec, appearance of the end of extraction was a bit blond, cup looked good though

[DC]

Thanks for doing that, that's very useful info. Off to work on my down-dosing

Dave

[DC]

Think I've made a little progress. By Jeff's measurements this dose would be around the 14.5g mark (puck level with bottom of ridge after tamping). Pulled half a dozen shots since last post and no dreaded bubble!

The harshness has gone from the shots, but they are still a little thin.



I think I need to slow the flow down a bit towards the end of the pull, but it's already at a grind that's giving me a ristretto-range shot.

Dave

[jesawdy]

Think I've made a little progress. By Jeff's measurements this dose would be around the 14.5g mark (puck level with bottom of ridge after tamping). Pulled half a dozen shots since last post and no dreaded bubble!

Weight varies, blend to blend, roast to roast, and with grind. I'm not saying run out and buy a scale... I'm just saying it does.

When I overdosed, I had a similar big cone bubble like in your earlier video (shot 2 above).

Shot looks good, nice even beading. It was hard to see the actual blonding point in the video. Why do you want to slow it down, did you feel it blonded early?

[DC]

Why do you want to slow it down, did you feel it blonded early?

Yeah, I stopped it earlier than I normally would because I began to see dead spots around the cone and the flow seemed to get fast and 'watery.' Thought that might have contributed to the thin taste.

DC

[dmorgen]

Actually, the 60 second wait is probably increasing the temp. Because of heat stored in the element, the boiler temp continues to rise for a minute or so after the heater shuts down (i.e. light goes off).

When Rancilio switched to the lower temp brew tstat, I think some of the old temp surfing info became outdated. The testing I did on the new Silvia suggests that shots pulled near the peak of the temp cycle give about 195F temperature at the puck.

So I agree with the suggestion on the 60 seconds, but for a different reason

Jim

Whatever the extra 60 seconds does, it works! Today I tried again. I ran into some other problems, but I knew immediately after the first attempt with the 60 second wait after the light goes off that the BITTERNESS WAS GONE!

Since I was having almost no distribution problems by the end of the last session, I decided to forgo the naked PF today & use the PF & double basket that came with Silvia. I was using Decaf Black Cat. It was roasted 15 days ago. But the last 11-12 days they have been stored vacuum packed in a mason jar. So they should be better than a normal 15 day old, but how much better is a guess. One surprise ... part way thru I was using unexpectedly fine grind settings on Rocky, so I re-checked its zero point. It's changed from 0 to -1, so I was 1 notch coarser than I thought. I'll specify all grind settings relative to the actual zero point.

I always use a 30 lb. tamp.

First try was 12g of coffee, with Rocky set to +8. I pulled 2 oz. in *9* seconds! This was a shock, since it was so much faster than the last time, although that was with the LM triple basket. So I tried again, changing to 14g. I pulled 2 oz. in *14* seconds; this time I got some crema & tasted it ... no bitterness, not a great flavor, but better than any I'd gotten recently. Both these had dryer pucks than I've been getting, the latter even falling out of the PF in 1 piece.

I tried 14g again, with Rocky at +7. It was again 14 sec., which was surprising, & similar flavor.

I set Rocky even finer to +5. This only slowed things down to 16 sec. & tasted slightly better. But I did notice a DEEP indent in the center of the puck before pulling the shot.

So I dropped back down to 12g with Rocky still at +5 ... 22 sec.! I had expected a faster pull with the smaller dose. Maybe the slowdown was due to the extra headroom above the puck? IAE, I wasn't complaining! I did notice a very slight indentation in the puck center before the pull, but should I go even smaller than 12g? The best news was it was a drinkable espresso! There wasn't a great variety of flavors, i.e. it lacked complexity, though. BTW, the puck is back to being a little soupy after the pull.

It was time to try the "real" coffee, i.e. not decaf. I used El Diablo, which was roasted & stored the same as the Decaf Black Cat. I pulled a shot the same as the previous. It took the same time. It had the same general flavor properties as the decaf, but was definitely better & absolutely drinkable. It had a strong roast flavor I wasn't crazy about, but it's a much darker roast than I like, which probably explains this.

Finally, I tried a Cafe Crema with the El Diablo ... 12g, Rocky at +10. I pulled 5 oz. in 20 sec., then added about 5 oz. of hot water. This was actually a very nice drink. I could really see making these regularly with a bean more to my taste!

So, finally, I feel really good where I'm at, espresso-wise! I was beginning to wonder whether espresso just wasn't for me!

But, I do wonder why I have to grind so fine (+5 on Rocky)? This doesn't leave a lot of room to play with if I want to try ristrettos! Could this be because of lack of freshness of the beans?

I guess I'll at least try using 11g.

Any suggestions for slowing down the pull longer than 22 sec.?

Next up ... I roasted some SM Monkey Blend to Vienna about 48 hours ago. I'll give it at least another day or 2 first.

BTW, one other thing I noticed. With the triple basket, after tamping I could turn it upside down & shake it to remove loose grinds. But today, using the double basket, simply turning it over was likely to end up with all the coffee dropping out. Is this typical of the double basket, or could something else be going on?

Thanks everybody for your help!

Dave

[DC]

So I dropped back down to 12g with Rocky still at +5 ... 22 sec.! I had expected a faster pull with the smaller dose. Maybe the slowdown was due to the extra headroom above the puck? IAE, I wasn't complaining! I did notice a very slight indentation in the puck center before the pull, but should I go even smaller than 12g?

12g? Still with the double basket? That's a low dose! Does anyone else dose this low in a double basket? It might have been slower than your higher dose because the higher one channeled.

I find it hard to go back to spouts after using the naked pf unless I've had 4 or 5 good shots in a row. This hasn't happened yet with Silvia

Any suggestions for slowing down the pull longer than 22 sec.?

Dose a bit more and go back to the naked pf for a bit to make sure you aren't getting any channeling. Personally I wouldn't try 11g, it seems far too low - but someone correct me if I'm wrong...

....using the double basket, simply turning it over was likely to end up with all the coffee dropping out. Is this typical of the double basket, or could something else be going on?

It's because your puck is losing adhesion to the sides of the basket. It usually happens if you slip with the tamp, if you try to correct a canted tamp, or if you tap too hard on the basket or accidentally knock it. If I'm way off-level I find it best to knock out the puck, wipe the basket clean, and start again. I don't think it's anything to do with the basket per se. I've had this happen a lot recently, which I blame on my choice of tamper handle (radical pro)... I had a lot of canted tamps which I mistakenly tried to correct at the last minute.

DC

[harris]

I use the double baket and dose at 15-15.5 grams.

216* on the PID

Two of the most important factors in pulling a good shot from the Silvia;

jggall01 PID kit and a Mazzer Mini E

[jesawdy]

Any suggestions for slowing down the pull longer than 22 sec.?

....

BTW, one other thing I noticed. With the triple basket, after tamping I could turn it upside down & shake it to remove loose grinds. But today, using the double basket, simply turning it over was likely to end up with all the coffee dropping out. Is this typical of the double basket, or could something else be going on?

Dave-

A couple things...

First, I want to be sure that you realize that you can swap baskets in and out of the naked and other portafilters. From your post I get the impression that you may have only used the triple basket with the naked in your experiments while having only 12g of coffee. While I suppose it might work, I would think it would be less than ideal. The basket shapes and number of holes are designed to accommodate the appropriate amount of coffee for a single, double or triple and have the shot volume and time be appropriate for the respective shot. While they are not perfect, you can adjust the grind a bit for the different baskets. You can also try to keep the headspace above the puck about the same. Alternatively, you can play with the dosing technique, but I digress.

You should simply invert the puck after tamping, no shaking and just let the grinds fall out (or wipe the rim of the basket and PF ears and not worry about the errant grinds). Your puck may have fallen out from shaking, tamp, or just an overly dry coffee. The single basket has done this to me a few times with perfectly good coffee, so I just dropped inverting the PF from my shot build.

Generally speaking, you up the dose, or fine up the grind to slow the shot. Depending of the resistance of the puck, reducing the OPV setting might help as well.

[dmorgen]

12g? Still with the double basket? That's a low dose! Does anyone else dose this low in a double basket? It might have been slower than your higher dose because the higher one channeled.

I was surprised at the low dose. But the indentation in the center of the puck after installing the PF when dosing 14g is quite deep; there's still a slight indentation at 12g. My understanding is the best results are when there's no indentation whatsoever. I'm using a bathroom scale to determine I'm doing a 30 lb. tamp, and I am pushing down pretty hard; otherwise, I would think I may not be tamping hard enough. The puck does end up noticeably below the line at the bottom of the top basket ridge, so this does seem pretty low. I'm also curious what others find using this basket.

Interesting theory about the channeling. That could certainly contribute or fully cause the fast speed. But there's definitely a pattern of too fast a flow in general. I doubt channeling is the entire problem overall.

I find it hard to go back to spouts after using the naked pf unless I've had 4 or 5 good shots in a row. This hasn't happened yet with Silvia Laughing

What do you like about the naked PF? I find it does give me more info. OTOH, I like the simplicity of not worrying about that stuff at least some of the time!

Quote:
Any suggestions for slowing down the pull longer than 22 sec.?

Dose a bit more and go back to the naked pf for a bit to make sure you aren't getting any channeling. Personally I wouldn't try 11g, it seems far too low - but someone correct me if I'm wrong...

The results are very consistent for channeling to be the problem ... unless I'm making very consistent mistakes ! I guess it can't hurt to try the naked PF to get a better idea what's going on, especially using the double basket.

Quote:
....using the double basket, simply turning it over was likely to end up with all the coffee dropping out. Is this typical of the double basket, or could something else be going on?

It's because your puck is losing adhesion to the sides of the basket. It usually happens if you slip with the tamp, if you try to correct a canted tamp, or if you tap too hard on the basket or accidentally knock it. If I'm way off-level I find it best to knock out the puck, wipe the basket clean, and start again. I don't think it's anything to do with the basket per se. I've had this happen a lot recently, which I blame on my choice of tamper handle (radical pro)... I had a lot of canted tamps which I mistakenly tried to correct at the last minute.

When you start again, do you use the same coffee already in the basket, or start with fresh ground?

Dave

[dmorgen]

I use the double baket and dose at 15-15.5 grams.

216* on the PID

Two of the most important factors in pulling a good shot from the Silvia;

jggall01 PID kit and a Mazzer Mini E

How high in the basket is the coffee after tamping? How hard do you tamp?

For some reason I feel a PID kit in my future ! How long did it take you to install yours?

I've recently realized I have an interesting problem with a PID ... no room for the display! I've got Silvia, Rocky & Presto Scandi beside the sink. They are already too close together. The display has nowhere to go, unless it hangs over the sink ... somehow I think my wife would object ! This definitely requires some creative thinking on my part!

Dave

[dmorgen]

First, I want to be sure that you realize that you can swap baskets in and out of the naked and other portafilters. From your post I get the impression that you may have only used the triple basket with the naked in your experiments while having only 12g of coffee. While I suppose it might work, I would think it would be less than ideal. The basket shapes and number of holes are designed to accommodate the appropriate amount of coffee for a single, double or triple and have the shot volume and time be appropriate for the respective shot. While they are not perfect, you can adjust the grind a bit for the different baskets. You can also try to keep the headspace above the puck about the same. Alternatively, you can play with the dosing technique, but I digress.

I do realize I can swap baskets. But for some reason it never occurred to me to actually do it! Thanks for pointing it out.

I found that 20g of coffee worked best in the triple. I've never tried the single.

You should simply invert the puck after tamping, no shaking and just let the grinds fall out (or wipe the rim of the basket and PF ears and not worry about the errant grinds). Your puck may have fallen out from shaking, tamp, or just an overly dry coffee. The single basket has done this to me a few times with perfectly good coffee, so I just dropped inverting the PF from my shot build.

I like the idea of just not inverting the PF ... keep it simple!

Generally speaking, you up the dose, or fine up the grind to slow the shot. Depending of the resistance of the puck, reducing the OPV setting might help as well.

My concern is that I'm already at the extremes ... I have a very fine grind with only a little room to spare using Rocky, and I already have a slight indentation in the puck from the screw before pulling the shot, so upping the dose is probably out.

I'd rather not start playing around with Silvia's internals yet ! But once I start delving into the world of PIDs that will change & I might as well screw around with the OPV then.

Dave

[DC]

I don't worry too much about the indentation of the bolt anymore, and like you say, you have to drop really low to avoid an impression. As long as you're careful when you lock the pf into the group it should be fine. I tend to just look to see if the puck hit the showerscreen.

What do you like about the naked PF? I find it does give me more info. OTOH, I like the simplicity of not worrying about that stuff at least some of the time!

That's the problem! Now that I've opened Pandora's box, all I do is worry about the extraction when it's hidden by the spouts (bit of a compulsive worrier, me ) Seriously though, if I watch the extraction and can see an obvious flaw, it's easier to fix quickly next time. If I had a bad shot with the spouted pf I'd probably have to pull another shot the exact same way in the naked pf to see what went wrong. I guess some people can do this by taste/experience alone, but I'm not so good at that yet. Also, I find watching the extraction adds to the satisfaction of making espresso myself (when it's good!), rather than just flicking the machine on and watching the coffee drip out of the spouts.

When you start again, do you use the same coffee already in the basket, or start with fresh ground?

Use the same stuff again, I just dump the coffee back into a jug/cup and fluff the grounds up with the needle I use for WDT, and re-dose.

DC

[harris]

How high in the basket is the coffee after tamping? How hard do you tamp?

For some reason I feel a PID kit in my future ! How long did it take you to install yours?

I've recently realized I have an interesting problem with a PID ... no room for the display! I've got Silvia, Rocky & Presto Scandi beside the sink. They are already too close together. The display has nowhere to go, unless it hangs over the sink ... somehow I think my wife would object ! This definitely requires some creative thinking on my part!

Dave

Hi Dave,

After a 30lb tamp the puck sits at the ring. I have cut a curve in a credit card, using a 12 inch dinner plate as a guide, that helps distribute the grounds.

Life is great with a PID, it took me a couple of hours to install from start to finish. The instruction book was amazing in its detail. I am sure Jim can give you some ideas on where to mount the PID. I have seen some mounted next to the brew group by the steam arm.

best of luck


h

[DC]

Dave, how are you getting on?

I don't know if this will be of any use to you, but I took some photos and a video of the last shot I did to give you an idea of what I'm dosing at. Your raw numbers will be different, but I thought it might help as a guide.

-Two level scoops of beans (turns out to be 15g for my current beans)
-Grind set at 13, grind into a jug, ensuring I get as many of the grounds out of the chute as possible (ends up being 15g as well)
-Transfer to pf+rancilio double basket, WDT, tap sides of pf and jostle it until the grounds are fairly level, then 'thunk' twice on the counter top to settle the grounds. At this point, this is the level of the coffee:



Perform a nutating tamp, bring the tamper level (the top of the tamper base is flush with the basket rim at this point) followed by a hard straight-down tamp. This is the level of puck after tamping:


Slightly canted, but you get the idea

Clear any loose grounds from around pf and basket (underneath as well), lock in carefully.

Pull shot: (turn the audio down or the horrible ringtone of the housephone will drive you mad )


The start wasn't as even as I'd have liked, and there were a few spritzies, but I thought it was a nice pour (criticisms welcome). In the cup, well, I don't think it would blow anyone away but it was the best shot I have pulled on Silvia since I got it
Brew ratio was 45%. Might grind finer for the next one.

After the shot, this was the puck:



Hope that helps. Thanks to Jesawdy, and to Cannonfodder's dialing-in thread for getting me this far!

DC

PS

I have cut a curve in a credit card, using a 12 inch dinner plate as a guide, that helps distribute the grounds

Any chance of a pic of this in action?

[dmorgen]

DC,

Dave, how are you getting on?

I don't know if this will be of any use to you, but I took some photos and a video of the last shot I did to give you an idea of what I'm dosing at. Your raw numbers will be different, but I thought it might help as a guide.

That was very helpful, especially the nutating tamp, which I hadn't seen before. Thanks!

Today I decided it was time to get out of experimental mode (although I do realize I'll never really leave it! ) & go into espresso production mode! I had some SM Monkey Espresso Blend, which I had roasted 7 days ago at Vienna. I started with 13g (I think ... some scale problems, so may have been a little less), and Rocky set to 5 (relative to zero point). I tamped more less as you describe, with the nutating tamp being the biggest difference from what I had been doing. I used the double basket which came with Silvia in a naked PF. I couldn't believe the results ... I actually got a slow flow of beautiful looking espresso ... I stopped it at 28 sec., just short of 2 oz.! Then I tasted it ... absolutely FANTASTIC! I now understood why people rave about espresso! It was sweet, bittersweet, and some other flavors I couldn't place. And that bittersweet flavor lingered for a loooong time ... until I finally drank some water, because it was time to try the next shot.

For the 2nd shot, I switched to a Bodum shot glass, so I could see the crema. I basically kept everything the same this time, except for using a 12g dose. This shot flowed much faster ... about 2 oz. in 14 sec. However, the shot looked great, and was initially almost all crema! In a short time the crema reduced to maybe 1/4" on top of the liquid (is this normal?). I didn't know what to expect tastewise after such a fast pour. But it was actually good! The extreme sweet & bittersweet flavors were reduced somewhat. So it wasn't as good as the 1st shot, but easier to drink ... very smooth & mellow.

Then I decided to really be bold ... I tried an SO shot. I had 2 choices, Sumatra Classic Mandheling (FC+, 7 days rest) & an Ethiopian Yirgacheffe. I went with the Sumatra (it was a very scientific decision ... I had much more of this bean remaining!). Everything was similar to the previous shot, except I tried 13g. It was again slow ... about 14 sec. for 2 oz. or slightly more. Crema was similar to the previous shot. This was a very different flavor ... a little bit sweet & fruity, a very strong roast flavor which I could not identify, very creamy, many more flavors (which I could not identify). I liked it, but not as much as the Monkey ... I'm not sure how much of that was my technique & how much was the different bean.

All in all, this session was far & away my best! I really enjoyed drinking the espresso (finally) & didn't even have to dump any shots, since even the "bad" shots tasted good. Any bitterness was "good" bitterness!

So, now my main concern is to slow those shots down to be more like the first one! I'll try upping the dose to 14g, and then play from there as necessary.

In general, how do people find the Sumatra Mandheling as an espresso? How about a Yirg?

Thanks for all the helpful advice everybody!

Hope that helps. Thanks to Jesawdy, and to Cannonfodder's dialing-in thread for getting me this far!

I've also found that thread to be incredibly useful.

Dave

[TimEggers]

For what it's worth I use a 12g dose on a regular occasion. Although anymore I use 14g. Speaking for doubles of course.

[DC]

From what you describe, the 13g-28sec-2oz ballpark sounds best for you. Your first one will have been fairly well extracted, but not the next two. I find these pulls are usually bitter-sour and are often associated with a strong aroma in the kitchen that I can't place but have come to know as the 'aroma of under-extraction.' When I smell it, I know things aren't right without even looking.

As for the crema question, faster flowing shots produce more crema, and it is normal for it settle out as you describe, and often for the shot size to 'shrink.' From the dialing-in thread:

Another tell tale sign of too fresh a bean is the crema in the cup. A shot that consists of 2oz (coffee and crema) will quickly settle and go flat. Your two ounce shot quickly becomes a 1.25 ounce shot as the 'false' crema falls. Keep in mind that a shot, even from properly rested beans, will settle over time. A two ounce shot will settle down to about 1.75-1.5 ounces if left to sit for a minute

Yirgacheffe I find acidic - in a pleasant way - and I was surprised that it actually tasted 'refreshing' - not something I normally associate with coffee flavours. I might raise some hackles here (I'm still new to this) but I don't often drink blended coffees as I tend to find them a bit dull compared to SO. I've often wondered what black cat or ambrosia would be like but don't know if they'd survive the trip after roasting. Maybe it's because I started with SO coffees, or maybe the ones I use are particularly forgiving, I don't know.

Glad you're enjoying your shots now

DC