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Fun with Roaster Thermometry

Discuss flavors, brew temperatures, blending, and cupping notes.

Link to "Fun with Roaster Thermometry"by Ken Fox on Thu Mar 30, 2006 11:11 pm

This is crossposted on alt.coffee.

As some here know, I have a 1lb commercial Sample Roaster that has been significantly modified since its purchase from Roaster's Exchange, which has the unlikely website URL of roastersexchange.com

If you know of any roasters in need of their unique skill set, don't hesitate to call them:-) But I digress.

Prior work on this roaster has included replacing the anemic burner that was shipped with it (per suggestions I got from Barry --- Thanks!) and custom fabrication and installation of a smoke hood, as smoke comes out all over the place from this thing, especially through the tryer hole.

Previously, I've monitored roast temps with a thermocouple (TC) mounted on a custom wood stand that I fabricated from scrap wood leftover from other things; this worked well however was a major PITA due to the need to put the TC stand on the cooling tray which coincidentally had to be used for other things such as cooling beans, which meant I needed to continually remove and replace it in use, and the TC would take time to get back up to temp for the next roast. I also needed to remove it before the roasts were completed as I wanted to use a tryer to look at beans towards the end of the roasts. There was also an uncertainty factor about when to introduce beans for the next roast since I try to let the drum cool off below 400F before new beans are put in, to reduce the risk of roast induced defects.

Six months ago I had an idea about permanently mounting a TC in the roaster, whose design is not very conducive to this, as the only nonrotating entry point was the tryer hole itself, which among other things is needed for introducing green beans and dumping them at the end of each roast. In addition, the drum rotates in the hole and the probe can't get too close to the opening or it will be damaged by the drum, but there is a need to preserve the size of the tryer hole since beans have to go in and out through it in this roaster design.

I determined that this installation was feasible and after talking to Greg Scace, got a recommendation to go with Omega for the fabrication of the custom sheated TC. The rep I spoke with from Omega was very helpful on the phone and seemed to understand well what it was that I wanted to have made. After some discussion we came up with measurements and a design, when I told him what I was working with, how I intended to mount it (attached to the outside cover of the drum), and the requirements for it and its wiring to withstand temperatures up to at least 500F. We were able to get this whole thing made for about $50, which I thought was very reasonable. I knew I would have to bend the TC sheath tubing several times, which was also a consideration in the materials and thickness of tubing used.

A few weeks later I received the custom fabricated TC, but various other things and reservations about how to actually execute this thing put the project way behind. A number of times I actually decided not to proceed with it as I became convinced that the project was apt to end in failure. For one thing, the stirring vanes in my drum are HUGE and if the probe was put in with the wrong orientation it would get chewed up quickly and destroyed. I tried using a bent hanger to simulate the bent TC in the drum and became even more convinced that this was a very dicey proposition. For one thing I was not convinced that I could attach the external part of the TC to the outside of the drum in a way that would stay put and would not get in the way while roasting.

The project went on the back burner.

A few days ago I was in a Lowes and got an inspiration to use some small pieces of copper tubing cut with a hacksaw, and some JB Weld (aka "redneck epoxy") to hold the TC in place. Yesterday, I cut off pieces of the copper tubing (about 1/2 to 1/3" in length) and proceeded to do the installation with the copper as a guide and the JB Weld to hold it all in place. I needed to revise the bending of the TC inside the drum to avoid the large drum vanes, but otherwise the project came off as well as I could have hoped for.

Here's a picture of the drum from an angle on the side showing the TC attached with the copper and JB Weld:

Image


as you can see, the tip of the installed TC is in the bean mass:

Image

This shows the old standing TC in place as well as the permanently installed TC

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Here you can see both TCs in the drum with beans being roasted:

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Here is a plot of temperatures datalogged during roasting with both Thermocouples in place; as you can see, both give more or less the same information. There is no data for the Tryer Hole (on a stand) TC during the period when there were beans in the cooling tray from the prior roast.

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As you can see, the tryer hole is used for other things!

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And finally, a view of how the roaster now looks with the permanent TC in place, right after a bean dump:

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Perhaps this will give some of you some ideas you can use, and if not, I hope you found it at least a little bit interesting. Like all successful mods I've done, it really has paid to think a long time before actually doing anything.

ken
What, me worry?

Alfred E. Neuman, 1955
Ken Fox
 
Posts: 1065
Joined: Oct 28, 2005
Location: Idaho

Link to "Fun with Roaster Thermometry"by framey on Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:41 am

Great solution to a really tough problem.
I've put together a smallish drum roaster and I've had trouble finding a temperature measurement solution. Thus far I've tried a bead thermocouple which equates to a piece of wire dangling aimlessly in the drum. Second up, and the most reliable so far has been an infrared temperature gauge. It has its issues but has done the best job so far. The last thing I thought I'd try was one of those cooking temperature probes. The one I bought is rated up to 300 degrees Celsius, with programmable high and low temperature alarm set points. I'd need something like your piece of wood to hold it in place, and as you have pointed out, this has some annoying limitations.
My plan at this stage was to mount some sort of bracket on one of the bolts near the opening of the drum to act as a guide for a temperature probe.

Image

It is very early days yet with my roaster but seeing what you've done makes me want to find a workable temperature solution sooner than later. Thanks again Ken.

Apologies for average lighting in the photo.
framey
 
Posts: 74
Joined: May 06, 2005
Location: Newcastle, Australia
www.espressoparts.com: espresso machines, grinders, brewing equipment & parts
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Link to "Fun with Roaster Thermometry"by Ken Fox on Fri Mar 31, 2006 11:11 am

framey wrote:Great solution to a really tough problem.
I've put together a smallish drum roaster and I've had trouble finding a temperature measurement solution. Thus far I've tried a bead thermocouple which equates to a piece of wire dangling aimlessly in the drum. Second up, and the most reliable so far has been an infrared temperature gauge. It has its issues but has done the best job so far. The last thing I thought I'd try was one of those cooking temperature probes. The one I bought is rated up to 300 degrees Celsius, with programmable high and low temperature alarm set points. I'd need something like your piece of wood to hold it in place, and as you have pointed out, this has some annoying limitations.
My plan at this stage was to mount some sort of bracket on one of the bolts near the opening of the drum to act as a guide for a temperature probe.

image: http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y221/diademajnr/0.jpg

It is very early days yet with my roaster but seeing what you've done makes me want to find a workable temperature solution sooner than later. Thanks again Ken.

Apologies for average lighting in the photo.


Hi,

Nice roaster! Your tryer hole diameter looks a little bit small for putting a permanent probe in; is that just the picture? How do you get the beans into and out of the drum, is it through the tryer hole itself?

If the tryer hole is indeed small, you should probably be thinking of some sort of indirect measurement of bean temp, for example a probe just outside of the drum but in the drum chamber, and away from the heat source.

I have tried one of those infrared thermometers, and in fact played around with it yesterday when I was roasting and obtained the posted pictures and temperature curves. The problem with the IR thermometers is that you can get most any temperature you want depending on where you aim it. The nice part about having a digital probe in the same place, roast after roast, is that you begin to learn what each temp means at each phase of the roast, and can reduce inconsistencies from roast to roast. Only by doing this can you learn what time/temperature/cracks parameters work best for the coffees you like to roast. I myself have learned that in my roaster I prefer somewhat faster roasts than I was doing, and now complete my roasts within 14 minutes (sometimes as little as 12 minutes) when I used to let the roast go to 16 or even 17 minutes. The longer roasts produced dull results, something I could only change by monitoring closely the roast temps in the first 9 minutes, before 1st crack starts. If things are going too slowly after 3 minutes or 5 minutes or 7 minutes, for example, I can increase heat, or conversely reduce heat if the roast is going too fast. By the time the cracks have gotten underway, it is a little bit too late to get the roast the way you really want it.

Good luck.

ken
What, me worry?

Alfred E. Neuman, 1955
Ken Fox
 
Posts: 1065
Joined: Oct 28, 2005
Location: Idaho

Link to "Fun with Roaster Thermometry"by framey on Fri Mar 31, 2006 11:46 am

The tryer hole diameter is 50mm, and yep it is on the small side. I load the green beans in through the tryer hole with a a funnel and a short piece of metal pipe. I like the look of the bean feeder in your photos. Mine is a bit less purpose built... ie 10 minutes at an auto supply store.
I've been meaning to drill a small hole for the cooking probe toward the top of the roaster housing. As you have mentioned this would be the easiest medium term solution.
If I'm careful to aim the infrared thermometer at the same spot, it is possible to get some fairly reliable temperature readings.
The roaster is a first time effort built from scratch. If I were crazy enough to undertake the construction of a MkII roaster I'd make quite a few changes :D

How do the commercial sample roasters measure roast temperatures?
framey
 
Posts: 74
Joined: May 06, 2005
Location: Newcastle, Australia

Link to "Fun with Roaster Thermometry"by Ken Fox on Fri Mar 31, 2006 12:41 pm

framey wrote:The tryer hole diameter is 50mm, and yep it is on the small side. I load the green beans in through the tryer hole with a a funnel and a short piece of metal pipe. I like the look of the bean feeder in your photos. Mine is a bit less purpose built... ie 10 minutes at an auto supply store.
I've been meaning to drill a small hole for the cooking probe toward the top of the roaster housing. As you have mentioned this would be the easiest medium term solution.
If I'm careful to aim the infrared thermometer at the same spot, it is possible to get some fairly reliable temperature readings.
The roaster is a first time effort built from scratch. If I were crazy enough to undertake the construction of a MkII roaster I'd make quite a few changes :D

How do the commercial sample roasters measure roast temperatures?


Certainly, it is undeniable that by the time you have finished a project or modification, you have figured out how you would do it better the 2nd time around, but it is of course too late :P

I think that commercial sample roasters are all over the map when it comes to how one, or IF one, monitors the temperature. One has to remember why these things exist and why roasters are willing to spend a small fortune on them (the purpose built ones are hugely expensive for what they are, and many of them have been made to order, as "one-offs;" mine was and I had to wait 3 months to receive it after I plunked down the deposit. They also retain virtually all or more of their value in the resale market.

The purpose built ones are used by roasters to cup samples coming from bean suppliers, in order to make purchasing decisions on large coffee purchases. They are not generally used as I use mine, e.g. for actually roasting coffee for consumption. Much of the cupping that is done is to detect DEFECTS; one does not necessarily need accurate roast profiling to roast at the light levels generally used for cupping to rule out defects.

So, most of the older style sample roasters are probably used without any sort of thermometry, by people who know how to pull off the sort of roast needed to do the job at hand. More recent sample roasters, including some with much smaller capacities than mine, have thermometry and roast profiling built in. These may be used by higher end roasters, for selecting the best lots and for blending, as for an espresso blend.

ken
What, me worry?

Alfred E. Neuman, 1955
Ken Fox
 
Posts: 1065
Joined: Oct 28, 2005
Location: Idaho

Drum Roast Temperature Profiles

Link to "Fun with Roaster Thermometry"by Ken Fox on Wed Apr 05, 2006 5:41 pm

Hi,

A week ago I posted some pictures of my modified 1lb sample drum roaster, and temperature curves comparing my prior thermocouple measurements with those I was able to get with the new thermocouple mounted in the middle of the drum and bean mass. Unlike the prior arrangement, I am now able to measure roast temps all the time without needing to remove the thermocouple for such tasks as adding or dumping beans, or using the bean cooling tray for it's intended use, i.e. cooling beans.

Image


I did 3 roasts today and datalogged the entire roast session; I've plotted the data in two different ways which I think illustrate the typical thermal behavior of drums. As such I think it may interest some home roasters and possibly others.

The beans were introduced at a drum temperature of around 400F. Finishing temperatures varied a little especially when comparing the first roast, which was of some "elderly" decaf beans, vs. the last two roasts which were single origin Harrar Horse recently purchased. A slightly larger bean load of 520g was used for the decaf roast and the two following, Harrar Horse, roasts each had 500g. Total roast times were very similar, between 12 min 30sec and 13 min 05 sec. The decaf roast was the shortest. The last Harrar roast, roast #3, went to a higher temperature because I got distracted for a few seconds and dumped the beans slightly later than I would have otherwise. The roasts were terminated at approximately 30 seconds into rolling second crack, a little less on the decaf a little more on the last Harrar roast. About every 20th or 30th bean had a tiny amount of oil spotting but this disappeared after 30 seconds on the cooling tray.

Herewith a plot of the entire roast session:

Image


and a plot of the three roasts superimposed on each other showing how similar their time/temperature courses were:

Image


I have crossposted this to alt.coffee, but in a unique thread. Given the "modest" amount of activity in this forum, I'm appending it to the earlier thread.

ken
What, me worry?

Alfred E. Neuman, 1955
Ken Fox
 
Posts: 1065
Joined: Oct 28, 2005
Location: Idaho


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