Free shipping from Greatcoffee.com

[Marshall]

Ken Davids' newsletter today announces that the coffees he rates and sells now come with free shipping (min. 2 lbs. per month subscirption). Seems like a very good deal and a chance for people who are remote from good roasters to sample some of the best coffees around. http://www.greatcoffee.com/coffeeclubstart.cfm

[cafeIKE]

Probably of limited interest as the coffee is first shipped to GreatCoffee then to the user. Unless able to go through a couple of pounds in a couple of days, the coffee will soon be on the downslope

As the coffee is not limited to espresso blends, one could end up with a wholly unsuited rip-your-face-off SO

[Marshall]

Probably of limited interest as the coffee is first shipped to GreatCoffee then to the user. Unless able to go through a couple of pounds in a couple of days, the coffee will soon be on the downslope

As the coffee is not limited to espresso blends, one could end up with a wholly unsuited rip-your-face-off SO

Well, customers rate them very highly for prompt delivery, and I assume many Home-baristas occasionally indulge a non-espresso. http://www.bizrate.com/ratings_guide/cust_reviews__mid--19239.html

Shipping cost is a huge obstacle for many people who would like to sample primo roasters, but live too far away. If I were in that situation, I would definitely give them a try.

[cannonfodder]

That actually looks like quite a good deal. Free shipping on two pounds of coffee and a French press with the subscription. You can always freeze the unopened bag for longevity. I have taken to doing that lately. I will roast or order coffee, let it degas and two days prior to it reaching it prime flavor window I will break it down into half pound glass airtight containers and put them in the freezer. I get a container out a day before I run out of coffee. That way I always have a supply of coffee that is in the prime flavor window.

If you told me three years ago that I would be freezing coffee I would have told you, you were nuts. Interesting how our opinions change over time.

For those that don't stray from the espresso path, live a little and stretch you palate. There is so much more out there to enjoy. You just might find a new favorite and enjoy the experimentation.

[cafeIKE]

That actually looks like quite a good deal....You can always freeze the unopened bag for longevity...

No offense, but how do you reconcile the above with :

...It appears that coffee that is roasted then sits for a few days prior to being frozen suffers a very quick death...

from Coffee To Freeze or Not To Freeze. At best, the coffee will be about 4 days old and at worst a week or more before receipt. BTW, the "quick death" statement is quite accurate.

Shipping cost is a huge obstacle for many people who would like to sample primo roasters

Over the years, I've joined and quit several "wine clubs" [from bargain to 90+ pts] because the fare, while not always bad, was not always to my palate. When one factors in the costs of offerings not enjoyed, the per unit cost rises rapidly. There's no free lunch. If a couple of bucks for shipping is an impediment, one could drink supermarket coffee for a month and save up for the good stuff. We sure as blazes don't drink 95pt wine every day!

[Marshall]

Over the years, I've joined and quit several "wine clubs" [from bargain to 90+ pts] because the fare, while not always bad, was not always to my palate. When one factors in the costs of offerings not enjoyed, the per unit cost rises rapidly. There's no free lunch. If a couple of bucks for shipping is an impediment, one could drink supermarket coffee for a month and save up for the good stuff. We sure as blazes don't drink 95pt wine every day!

Some of us enjoy new coffee experiences, especially when they are selected by one of the best palates in the coffee world. Obviously, at least one person wouldn't.

[cafeIKE]

Some of us enjoy new coffee experiences...

As do we all. Fine wines may vary from bottle to bottle and case to case. Coffee exponentially more so from roast to roast and day to day. Add in the vagaries of storage and preparation [grind, brew temp and water] and the question becomes does the consumer have any chance of tasting what the reviewer reviewed.

...especially when they are selected by one of the best palates in the coffee world.

Suppose "Mr. Golden Receptors" rated Supreme Bean Ring of Fire an 80.
Would you drop it from your regular rotation?

Bottom line is the consumer can probably do better by ordering well reviewed coffees directly from the roaster. Shipped 3-day or less on roast day and the coffee is unlikely past its peak upon receipt. The same cannot be said with confidence for the free delivery times to over 90% of the country : https://www.greatcoffee.com/shippingtimes.cfm/wh.keurig, especially when one adds the additional time from the roaster to GreatCoffee.

[cannonfodder]

That actually looks like quite a good deal....You can always freeze the unopened bag for longevity...

No offense, but how do you reconcile the above with :

...It appears that coffee that is roasted then sits for a few days prior to being frozen suffers a very quick death..

from Coffee To Freeze or Not To Freeze. At best, the coffee will be about 4 days old and at worst a week or more before receipt. BTW, the "quick death" statement is quite accurate.

Not at all, that is easy to explain. Yes, I think coffee that has been frozen degrades quicker with long term storage. The coffee I was playing with had been frozen for months, not weeks. The half pound lots only last me a few days (around 3) so it never reaches that rapid death point or stays in the freezer more than a 3 or 4 weeks. The coffee you pulled the quote from had been in the chill chest for 4 months.

It is a matter of length of storage. Freezing slows the degradation, but does not stop it. Another point I made in that same thread. That is why I let my roasts degas to within a couple of days of their prime flavor window. I essentially end up with a constant supply of coffee that is in its prime.

Personally, I order piecemeal from each vendor but I have been around the block once or twice. Someone new to artisan coffee that wanted to try a variety of coffees from different roasters would save a small fortune in shipping going this route. Provided their consumption kept pace with the shipments. Three pounds of coffee per month is not difficult to keep pace with. I go through a pound a week, sometimes more.

[zin1953]

from Coffee To Freeze or Not To Freeze. At best, the coffee will be about 4 days old and at worst a week or more before receipt. BTW, the "quick death" statement is quite accurate

One good quote deserves another . . .

From Coffee To Freeze or Not To Freeze:

My freezing results are very good, but they are done with nearly ideal conditions, e.g. very cold chest freezers, nearly airtight jars, and with coffee just out of the roaster. For those buying already roasted coffee in bulk, that has significantly degassed when they receive it, I think it may make sense to freeze what is to be frozen in small batches, maybe even as little as 125 or 150g, so that it can be used up very quickly and the next bag then opened to continue using the stash. I have some small reused salad dressing jars (straight sided, for the kind of refrigerated salad dressings you can buy at a grocery store, like the "Lighthouse" and I believe the "Marie's" brands) that hold around this small quantity, and use them often to freeze small batches.

Indeed, rather than quoting from the thread "Coffee: To Freeze or Not To Freeze," why not quote from the HB article that started the thread? That is, Coffee: To Freeze or Not to Freeze: Does freezing preserve coffee used for espresso?

By the way, Ian, it helps to use the entire quote. What you quoted Dave ("cannonfodder") as saying was

It appears that coffee that is roasted then sits for a few days prior to being frozen suffers a very quick death.

The entire quote was

Well, it happened today, my last quarter pound of Ambrosia fell flat on its face. It appears that coffee that is roasted then sits for a few days prior to being frozen suffers a very quick death. For the first couple of days it held up quite well with little degradation, day three I noticed a change in the cup, day four it is compost. It still pulls a visually appealing shot but all the sweetness and acidity is gone leaving you with a very generic "coffee" flavor.

For shorter freeze periods my samples have held up quite well. I have ordered two pounds, froze one and used the other. A week later retrieve the frozen pound and it lasts just as long as the fresh pound before it. After four months in the freezer, both of my samples had a 3 day lifespan before the flavor turned from bright and fruity to wet cardboard.

I believe there is a significant distinction.

Cheers,
Jason

[cafeIKE]

"...It appears that coffee that is roasted then sits for a few days prior to being frozen suffers a very quick death..." could be re-written "Coffee at its peak should be consumed quickly."

Stored in a dry, airtight container to prevent contamination or contact with moisture, roasted whole bean coffee holds its flavor and aroma for about a week. After two weeks, it still tastes reasonably fresh, but the aroma begins to slip; after three the flavor starts to go as well. Whole-bean coffee kept past a month, though still drinkable, will strike the palate as lifeless and dead.

p 116: Freezing, however, is an excellent way to preserve whole-bean coffee if you do not intend to drink it within a week.

Stored in a tightly sealed jar outside of light, most blends are drinkable for two weeks, though they usually peak 4-8 days post roast as Ian said. from Starter coffee blend suggestions?

For every 10°C change, the speed of a chemical reaction changes by a factor of 2.

Ignoring boffins with spectrographs, coffee staling and freezing is simple chemistry :

- Changing the temperature from +20°C to -20°C slows staling by a factor of 16. In laymans terms, two weeks in your typical refrigerator freezer equates to one day at room temperature.
- Changing the temperature from +20°C to -30°C slows staling by a factor of 32. In laymans terms, one month in your typical chest deep freeze equates to one day at room temperature.

Dave's [and Ken's] freezer @ -15°F is midway between, so let's say 3 weeks = 1 day.
Ken's coffee, frozen immediately after roast for 4 to 8 weeks, accumulates ~1.5 to 3 days.

The coffee in question, was frozen several days post roast and removed from the freezer after ~4 months or 16 weeks or +5 equivalent days at room temperature. Add the time to thaw, the several days prior to freezing and the coffee was about day 10, definitely the downhill slope for someone whose goal is to make "consistently exceptional" espresso. Who here, would not expect it to fall flat on its face on day 14? No one with an understanding of the fundamentals would expect the coffee to be as it was when frozen.

Back on Topic:
That anyone can advocate that saving a few bucks on shipping for coffee that, for most of the country, by the standards of "Your guide to exceptional espresso" AND the vendor, is received past its prime makes sense is beyond me.

BTW, I put up my money : I joined. My coffee was shipped yesterday April 9 and arrives April 15. Adding a few days for transit from the roaster and processing, it should arrive as a middle aged, reasonably fresh, 10 day old. Who knows : "Wow, by the third week, this coffee really comes into its own!"

Stay tuned...

ps I posted this on alt.coffee BEFORE Ken's article:
Prior to your post I'd purchased several 1 pound bags of the same
fresh roast from a specialty roaster to test your question. The bags
are heat sealed plastic with 1 way valves.

I froze one, kept one sealed at room temp and used one to make coffee
until it was intolerable, about a week later.

I removed the frozen bag and let it aclimatize over night before
opening.

Surprisingly, the frozen bag was fairly close to the original bag a
week previously. The unopened bag was 90% as bad as the opened bag.

The degradation in the opened bag was somewhat more than I'd expected,
even though I did my best to remove all the air before sealing.

Cheers,
Ian

[Marshall]

Ian,
You live at the maximum possible distance (Southern California) from the shipper (Connecticut). To suggest that your personal arrival time is a good measure for everyone is unfair. Most of the country lives within a two or three day shipping distance from Great Coffees. What may be an excellent solution for people like them, may make less sense for us here in God's Country. I subscribe to Ecco Caffe's Experimental Espresso service because (1) Andrew Barnett is one of the best cuppers on the planet and (2) he ships from California.

[cafeIKE]

Ian,
You live at the maximum possible distance (Southern California) from the shipper (Connecticut). To suggest that your personal arrival time is a good measure for everyone is unfair. Most of the country lives within a two or three day shipping distance from Great Coffees. What may be an excellent solution for people like them, may make less sense for us here in God's Country. I subscribe to Ecco Caffe's Experimental Espresso service because (1) Andrew Barnett is one of the best cuppers on the planet and (2) he ships from California.

To be fair, I did not consider my location.
Logistics are the primary exciter and the non-espresso factor secondary.

At the risk of being argumentative and having my post yanked AGAIN, perusal of the shipping map, MOST of the country is 4 or 5 day delivery. HALF the population is within the possibility of 3 day delivery. IF the shipment was direct to consumer from the roaster, I would have no issue. BUT since the coffee is first shipped to the vendor then the consumer, the probability of a weekend layover is significant. When all is taken into account, receipt of the coffee with free shipping before the downhill slide is not certain.

If posted on CoffeeGeek, no probs.
If the original post said something like "For those of you east of Pittsburgh, this looks like a great deal... ...For those of you out west, there is a $3.99 UPS 2nd Day Air option", no probs.

Here, an espresso site that purports to attain the highest possible standards, a greater than 50% probability that the coffee is outside optimal boundaries, and may be wholly unsuited to espresso, does not strike me as a good deal. Such was my original post.

IF the coffee is exceptional, I'll upgrade to $3.99 UPS 2nd Day Air delivery for future offerings. $15 coffee I can drink is infinitely preferable to $13 I can't.

BTW, Yorkshire is God's Country.

[HB]

IF the coffee is exceptional, I'll upgrade to $3.99 UPS 2nd Day Air delivery for future offerings.

I suffer the opposite problem, so I rarely order coffee from west coast roasters who don't offer USPS service. I've asked many times why they insist on more expensive and slower UPS/FedEx. The answer is always the same, "Their service offering is very business friendly and USPS is not."

[cafeIKE]

... update

Coffee 1 :
Ship Ground : Roasted April 3. Delivered April 16. Consumed April 17.
According to the missus : "This tastes just like something we'd get at the supermarket on vacation."

Coffee 2 :
Ship 2nd Day Air : Roasted May 6. Delivered May 13 : Consumed May 14. Better, but pretty flat.
Ship Ground : Roasted May 6. Delivered May 16 : Consumed May 17. Ditto Coffee 1.

These are meant to be stellar coffees.
Because they are not shipped directly from the roaster, by the time the consumer receives them, they are well past their prime. NONE of them could pass this simple staling test : Squeeze as much air as possible out of the bag and tape over the 1-way valve. Fresh coffee will inflate the bag over night.

Which brings us to the free press :


Nissan right.

The Nissan press has a lighter spring and a finer mesh than other presses in our collection. The net result is the screen does not seal. Coupled with the finer mesh, coffee grounds and sludge end up in the cup. Even with fresh coffee, this press makes an inferior cup.

Coffee 2 is roasted less than 100 miles from us and would arrive the next day.
It makes more sense to pay an extra $10 shipping for great coffee than receive very marginal $25 coffee.

An all around bad deal.

[RapidCoffee]

For every 10°C change, the speed of a chemical reaction changes by a factor of 2.

Further discussion of this statement moved to Rate of coffee staling.

[werbin]

Ken Davids' newsletter today announces that the coffees he rates and sells now come with free shipping (min. 2 lbs. per month subscirption). Seems like a very good deal and a chance for people who are remote from good roasters to sample some of the best coffees around. http://www.greatcoffee.com/coffeeclubstart.cfm

They state:
Price averages only $12.95/bag/month
Free shipping and welcome gift when you sign up for month-to-month delivery of 2+ bags

Then they say:
Prepaid Coffee Clubs
(2 bags/mo. includes shipping)
3 months - $99.95

3 months @$99.95 = 33.32 / month for 2 bags = 16.66 / bag per month
In other words, the "free shipping= 16.66 - 12.95 = $3.71 / bag or $7.42 / shipment of 2 bags

That sounds like standard shipping prices to me. Not "free shipping".
Of course that might be a typo or a simple misstatement.

[mitchellb]

3 months @$99.95 = 33.32 / month for 2 bags = 16.66 / bag per month
In other words, the "free shipping= 16.66 - 12.95 = $3.71 / bag or $7.42 / shipment of 2 bags

That sounds like standard shipping prices to me. Not "free shipping".
Of course that might be a typo or a simple misstatement.

That is indeed the case if you prepay; If you go month-to-month it's supposed to be less expensive.

[JohnB.]

I suffer the opposite problem, so I rarely order coffee from west coast roasters who don't offer USPS service. I've asked many times why they insist on more expensive and slower UPS/FedEx. The answer is always the same, "Their service offering is very business friendly and USPS is not."

Same here but I do see more & more roasters offering Priority Mail shipping. Not all of them show it on their site but if you call or email they will ship USPS. I recently exchanged a few emails with Nathan at Counter Culture about their current shipping rates & suggested that Priority Mail would be a nice option that could lower costs. He said they'd been thinking about it for awhile & that they hoped to be offering it in the near future. I'm sure this would make ordering coffee from CCC much more appealing for west coast residents.

[cafeIKE]

Ditto.
I hope they listen.