Flour Sifter for espresso grounds?

[jmatt]

I don't own a flour sifter or I would try this myself before asking:

I noticed the slightly clumpier (is that a word?) look of grounds from doserless grinders, and paid attention to things like the WDT to get the grounds evenly into the filter basket.

I was wondering: Would espresso grounds make it through an old-fashioned flour sifter? If so, would sifting the grounds into the basket not yield an incredibly even, clumpless basket full of espresso?

Has anyone tried this?

[Martin]

I don't own a flour sifter or I would try this myself before asking:

I noticed the slightly clumpier (is that a word?) look of grounds from doserless grinders, and paid attention to things like the WDT to get the grounds evenly into the filter basket.

I was wondering: Would espresso grounds make it through an old-fashioned flour sifter? If so, would sifting the grounds into the basket not yield an incredibly even, clumpless basket full of espresso?

Has anyone tried this?

??? Flour sifters are big. Baskets are small. I see a mess on the counter.

OTOH, this very site has an excellent article that addresses clumpyness:
http://www.home-barista.com/weiss-distribution-technique.html

My own mod has been to tape 2 superfine florist wires to the "other" end of my grinder brush to stir the grounds before removing the yogurt cup.
Martin

[jmatt]

??? Flour sifters are big. Baskets are small. I see a mess on the counter.

Of course I envision a funnel of some sort. (Or a 58mm sifter)

[AndyS]

I was wondering: Would espresso grounds make it through an old-fashioned flour sifter? If so, would sifting the grounds into the basket not yield an incredibly even, clumpless basket full of espresso?

Has anyone tried this?

I tried it two ways:
1. through a flour sifter
2. through a small screen that fit in the exit chute of the Mazzer doser.

Didn't seem to make a noticeable improvement....

[jmatt]

I tried it two ways:
1. through a flour sifter
2. through a small screen that fit in the exit chute of the Mazzer doser.

Didn't seem to make a noticeable improvement....

Well - it was a thought. It was worth a try. Thanks for the info.

[HB]

The WDT helps eliminate clumps and even out the distribution in the portafilter. Doserless grinders benefit the most, grinders like the Mazzer Mini benefit noticeably, and grinders like the Mazzer Robur see little or no improvement. As Martin noted, a flour sifter would be a "messy WDT".

However, your flour sifter comment got me thinking: The doser's vane action helps break up clumps and promotes a more even distribution of the grinds on their way to the portafilter. The vanes' action could be improved. If instead of one set of vanes that simply push the grinds along, what if there were another set mounted above that rotated in the opposite direction, like you see in some flour sifters? The scissor action would break up clumps with every pull. Would it be a lazy man's WDT or a frugal man's Robur-like evenness?

If my idea gets patented, remember you heard it here first.

[AndyS]

However, your flour sifter comment got me thinking: The doser's vane action helps break up clumps and promotes a more even distribution of the grinds on their way to the portafilter. The vanes' action could be improved. If instead of one set of vanes that simply push the grinds along, what if there were another set mounted above that rotated in the opposite direction, like you see in some flour sifters? The scissor action would break up clumps with every pull. Would it be a lazy man's WDT or a frugal man's Robur-like evenness

That was pretty much what I was trying to accomplish with the screen in the exit chute of the doser. It was flush with the bottom of the doser so that the vanes scraped over it continuously, breaking up clumps as the coffee was swept into the chute.

After messing around with it a bit, I concluded that the technique of continuously flipping the doser lever the entire time that the Mazzer ground the dose did just as good a job eliminating clumps, if not better.

There was some discussion of this stuff here

[HB]

That was pretty much what I was trying to accomplish with the screen in the exit chute of the doser. It was flush with the bottom of the doser so that the vanes scraped over it continuously, breaking up clumps as the coffee was swept into the chute.

I'm not an authority on flour sifters, but I vaguely recall two types. The "screen scraper" type similar is what you crafted for your Mazzer doser, and another with two sets of vanes that rotate in opposing directions. For the purposes of coffee grinds, my assumption is that breaking up clumps by screening is less effective than stirring; in fact, the grounds may be compressed by being "extruded" through a screen, producing what appears to be a visually uniform grind, but is actually creating micro-clumps.

I have vague thoughts about micro-clumps, the effectiveness of competition style dosing, and their relationship to burr types. OK, OK, it's really part of my strategy of convincing myself to upgrade to a Mazzer Kony.

[cpl593h]

I would think that so much agitation/aeration would accelerate staling.

[jrtatl]

I would think that so much agitation/aeration would accelerate staling.

How long do you think Dan plans on agitating the beans? I'm no scientist, but I can't see how an agitation of less than 30 seconds would stale the coffee.

Can you elaborate?

Thanks,

[MOSFET]

I think the flour sifter is a great idea if the grinds fit through. Maybe with a funnel, like the yogurt cup.

Has anyone tried restricting the flow on the doser? More thwacks but less coffee per thwack. Similar to dosing while grinding but without cooling the portafilter as much. A "grinder gicleur".

Keith

[timo888]

I placed a filter basket on my cellphone on vibrate and the vibration did cause the mound to settle a bit. But one small cellphone vibrator wasn't enough. You could use an array of such vibrators in a filterbasket tray, or built into a portafilter (SharperImage catalog stuff ) or even one from a sex toy store, to settle the coffee and break clumps in the filter basket. The sound might be less annoying than the thwack thwack thwack thack thwack thwack thwack thack thwack thwack thwack thack thwack thwack thwack thack of the doser.

Regards
Timo

[cannonfodder]

It is OK for a man (or woman) to thwack their doser in the privacy of their own home, Man Law.

[timo888]

Sorry buddy, I'm a strict constructionist, and there's nothing about dosers in the U.S. Constitution.

[HB]

I placed a filter basket on my cellphone on vibrate and the vibration did cause the mound to settle a bit.

A few months back when the WDT was still a new idea, Lino and I were talking about a grinder modification that would improve distribution. He mentioned some sort of vibratory device, but I don't think that would really help. The problem is as much the uneven distribution (too much here, too little there) as the micro-clumps. Then again, I think that jewelers use ultrasound to clean. Maybe it would work to break up clumps. Combining the ultrasound and opposing direction doser vanes... OK, now this is getting too silly.

I still think grinders that "extrude" or clog easily would benefit from delicate agitation. Hey, how about this thing mounted directly in front of the exit chute?


The next must-have Mazzer Mini accessory from Amazon.com

[timo888]

A few months back when the WDT was still a new idea, Lino and I were talking about a grinder modification that would improve distribution. He mentioned some sort of vibratory device, but I don't think that would really help. The problem is as much the uneven distribution (too much here, too little there) as the micro-clumps. Then again, I think that jewelers use ultrasound to clean. Maybe it would work to break up clumps. Combining the ultrasound and opposing direction doser vanes... OK, now this is getting too silly.

I still think grinders that "extrude" or clog easily would benefit from delicate agitation. Hey, how about this thing mounted directly in front of the exit chute?

If the vibration is applied to the filter basket it would break up the clumps and settle the coffee. Not sure if it would work if applied to the chute.

Same level of silliness, I think, as the big needle, only safer .... you can't poke yourself in the eye.

In the micro-clump, Eubulides has met his nemesis.

Regards
Timo

[cpl593h]

How long do you think Dan plans on agitating the beans? I'm no scientist, but I can't see how an agitation of less than 30 seconds would stale the coffee.

Can you elaborate?

I don't have any concrete evidence, especially time-based evidence, to back up my statement. I simply think that overmixing coffee with oxygen and moisture rich air, eliminating any CO2 envelope that may protect the coffee, is a quick way to release volatiles and oxidize the coffee. It is my opinion (which should be taken lightly, I'm not a scientist either), that the extended exposure and subsequent staling are worse for the espresso than clumping.

Time for me to re-read Espresso: The Science of Quality...

[Jasonian]

I don't have any concrete evidence, especially time-based evidence, to back up my statement. I simply think that overmixing coffee with oxygen and moisture rich air, eliminating any CO2 envelope that may protect the coffee, is a quick way to release volatiles and oxidize the coffee. It is my opinion (which should be taken lightly, I'm not a scientist either), that the extended exposure and subsequent staling are worse for the espresso than clumping.

Time for me to re-read Espresso: The Science of Quality...

While I agree that excessive agitation can actually accelerate the rate of staling, I think that poor distribution will have a much greater impact on the flavor than even a solid minute of agitation resulting in nearly perfect distribution.

Just my $.02

[MOSFET]

I tried the flour sifter and it works, in the sense that the mesh pitch is a pretty good match. Being that the sifter was a little larger than the basket diameter and I used a funnel, more was distributed along the perimeter than in the middle. But it was absolutely without clumps, and was a beautiful sight to see espresso grinds gently "snowing" into the basket. With practice and a little more hardware I bet this could go somewhere for the ambitious home user. Unfortunately, like the dosers, this would probably work a lot better if the sifter were full. So the mechanics of the sifter scaled down may be a good start to a useful contraption for the home.


Keith

[cpl593h]

While I agree that excessive agitation can actually accelerate the rate of staling, I think that poor distribution will have a much greater impact on the flavor than even a solid minute of agitation resulting in nearly perfect distribution.

Just my $.02

There are other methods to "fix" poor distribution. I don't see how anything that accelerates staling can be beneficial.