Flojet and rotary pump questions

[AndyS]

(split from Fiorenzato Bricoletta - A Pro's Perspective by moderator...)

First thoughts are that I seem to be getting more of the "clarity" from the espresso made with this machine that with other home machines. It's still not quite as defined as what I would get off a Mistral or the like, but it's less fuzzy. I'm thinking it is probably the result of the rotary pump in this case

A few thoughts:
1. Would you mind briefly explaining how the Flojet pump system works? I've never used one of them. My reason for asking is, of course, if the inlet pressure to the rotary pump varies, the outlet pressure will vary by the same amount. I'm just wondering if pressure control is poorer with this setup as compared to a typical plumbed in commercial machine.
2. Even if pressure control is poorer than in a commercial setup, it may still be better than in many vibe machines (which is probably the point you were making above).
3. Aside from pressure variation and pressure control, another variable is the time it takes for pressure to rampup at the beginning of the extraction. Depending on the way the rotary is setup, this could be one second or many seconds. Vibe pump rampups are usually 5-10 seconds.

Apologies again if I'm restating obvious stuff.

[terryz]

I can respond with regards to the Flojet.

The Flojet pump that we used in this installation is a on demand bottled water pump. When pressure drops below 20 PSI the pump kicks in and builds pressure back up to 40 PSI. The change is small and is instant rather than a slow ramp up. The effect at the machine is nominal.

The difference between this type of system and that of a machine connected directly to the water mains, is that a mains connection deals in a higher PSI fluctuation. Spikes and drops in pressure can be as high as 50 PSI on a municipal system.

The Flojet rotary pump system is far better in any case to a vibration pump drawing water from a tank.

Thank you for your question Mr. Schecter I will now return you to your regular reviewer.

[AndyS]

The Flojet pump that we used in this installation is a on demand bottled water pump. When pressure drops below 20 PSI the pump kicks in and builds pressure back up to 40 PSI. The change is small and is instant rather than a slow ramp up. The effect at the machine is nominal.

I must not be understanding you. You appear to be saying that the inlet pressure to the rotary will vary 20 PSI (1.4 BAR). Therefore, the extraction pressure (pump outlet pressure) will vary 1.4 BAR. This is "nominal???"

The difference between this type of system and that of a machine connected directly to the water mains, is that a mains connection deals in a higher PSI fluctuation. Spikes and drops in pressure can be as high as 50 PSI on a municipal system.

20 PSI is a lot less than 50 PSI, but neither is acceptable. Some people (not just Schomer) say that 0.1 bar makes a discernible impact on the shot. After reading Schomer's book, I've always assumed that high-end shops took his advice and properly controlled their inlet pressure.

Naive assumption?

Does the machine require mains pressure in order to fill the boiler? Otherwise, why would there be an advantage to this inlet system?

The Flojet rotary pump system is far better in any case to a vibration pump drawing water from a tank.

In what sense?

[malachi]

I suppose I could put a static tank in my system if I really thought that the pump created line pressure was the limiting factor with the espresso.

[AndyS]

I suppose I could put a static tank in my system if I really thought that the pump created line pressure was the limiting factor with the espresso.

I doubt it's the "limiting" factor, but I know you consider it "a" factor, because you're one of the guys that specifies very precise brew pressures with certain coffees.

[terryz]

The Flojet pump that we used in this installation is a on demand bottled water pump. When pressure drops below 20 PSI the pump kicks in and builds pressure back up to 40 PSI. The change is small and is instant rather than a slow ramp up. The effect at the machine is nominal.

I must not be understanding you. You appear to be saying that the inlet pressure to the rotary will vary 20 PSI (1.4 BAR). Therefore, the extraction pressure (pump outlet pressure) will vary 1.4 BAR. This is "nominal???"

The difference between this type of system and that of a machine connected directly to the water mains, is that a mains connection deals in a higher PSI fluctuation. Spikes and drops in pressure can be as high as 50 PSI on a municipal system.

20 PSI is a lot less than 50 PSI, but neither is acceptable. Some people (not just Schomer) say that 0.1 bar makes a discernible impact on the shot. After reading Schomer's book, I've always assumed that high-end shops took his advice and properly controlled their inlet pressure.

Naive assumption?

Does the machine require mains pressure in order to fill the boiler? Otherwise, why would there be an advantage to this inlet system?

The Flojet rotary pump system is far better in any case to a vibration pump drawing water from a tank.

In what sense?

Mr. Schecter

Look I spent an hour with this machine and during that time I became convinced.....Oh never mind.

Ok so I agree with you that it is a huge difference in pressure. However we are simulating a "Typical" Installation in a home enviroment.

This particular installation also includes a carbon block filter from Everpure, which oddly enough holds back pressure drop, and acts as a very small static tank due to the volume of water it is holding. In this instance it hold double the volume used in filling the boiler.

The rotary pump in this machine is what is used to fill the boiler rather than line pressure. As you know this is typical of this level of machine.

In a more custom application the use of an accumulator would be installed and recommended to control the loss of pressure. In a commercial application a static tank or an extrol accumulator would be used.

I'm off to experiment with the garden hose pressure in the backyard. Happy independance day.

[AndyS]

Hi Terry!

Enjoying this discussion. You know that I love you, man, right? In the platonic sense, of course.

Look I spent an hour with this machine and during that time I became convinced.....Oh never mind.

C'mon! Speak! Convinced of what?

This particular installation also includes a carbon block filter from Everpure, which oddly enough holds back pressure drop, and acts as a very small static tank due to the volume of water it is holding. In this instance it hold double the volume used in filling the boiler.

Interesting, even though "holds back pressure drop" is a very weird expression.

The rotary pump in this machine is what is used to fill the boiler rather than line pressure. As you know this is typical of this level of machine.

In a more custom application the use of an accumulator would be installed and recommended to control the loss of pressure. In a commercial application a static tank or an extrol accumulator would be used.

From what you described so far I don't see why the Flojet's in there at all. My home procon has been happily sucking out of a bottle for 4 years, and I don't have to worry about inlet pressure variation. Tell me why, Obi-wan Kenobi.

I'm off to experiment with the garden hose pressure in the backyard. Happy independance day.

Best to you! And remember, four beers and fireworks don't mix!

[malachi]

The Procon in this case is not the full size commercial one, but rather an itty-bitty one (smallest I've ever seen).

It's entirely possible that it would work just fine without the FloJet, but I'd rather not destroy a review machine finding out.

If I were going to buy a Bricoletta or the like and have it as my one and only home machine I would without a doubt plumb it in, and would probably also install a static tank as well.

[AndyS]

The Procon in this case is not the full size commercial one, but rather an itty-bitty one (smallest I've ever seen).

It's entirely possible that it would work just fine without the FloJet, but I'd rather not destroy a review machine finding out.

Yeah, destroying review machines is a bummer, especially before big holiday weekends!

Is the pump one of the MagDrive Series 2/3 pumps?

If so, Procon clearly states that they're good for the usual six foot suction lift.

[HB]

If so, Procon clearly states that they're good for the usual six foot suction lift.

Another data point... The Elektra A3 has a Procon pump, but the owner's manual and a big warning on the machine itself say it must have minimum positive pressure of 1.5 bar to operate properly (max. 4 bar). Probably has to do with its preinfusion.

[lino]

Perhaps worth mentioning also is that on plumbed in applications where line pressure is used, a regulator could be inexpensively installed upstream of the pump. This would allow regulatiion of pressure into the pump at some level just below the line pressure fluctuation. And that would keep pump pressure very constant.

Also, I just took apart a procon pump head I had sitting here. The regulator in it is spring based, not diaphragm based. What this means is that regulated outlet pressure does not vary with inlet pressue. I have no idea why we have been hearing so long that inlet and outlet are related. Based on this pump I'm staring at, it does not appear to be true.

The related inlet-outlet pressure would only apply if the working pressure was below the regulator set pressure (as might be the case if it were an emergency / safety valve). I don't think that's the case though. Don't most machines use this regulator to adjust brew pressure?

There is another regulator in there too, but it allows flow to bypass the pump, presumably to protect the pump mechanism if inlet pressure rises too high.

Sorry if that didn't shed any light on the situation.

ciao

lino

[HB]

Interesting discussion Lino and Andy. In practice, I've found that the inlet pressure definitely affects the output pressure, but not 1-to-1. I assume because the spring resistance isn't linear (?). Tweaking the inlet pressure regulator is an easy way of making small brew pressure adjustments without opening the espresso machine's casing to access the rotary pump bypass.

[JonR10]

Hmmm...

So does this mean I should consider getting an inline regulator for my new rotary pump - flojet - bottle setup? (If so does Terry sell them?)

[HB]

I wouldn't bother with an inlet pressure regulator for a Flojet -- the flow rate is so slow, it's certain to keep the pressure even (spec sheet).

[AndyS]

Perhaps worth mentioning also is that on plumbed in applications where line pressure is used, a regulator could be inexpensively installed upstream of the pump. This would allow regulatiion of pressure into the pump at some level just below the line pressure fluctuation. And that would keep pump pressure very constant.

My experience with several different industrial water pressure regulator valves is different than yours. The valves I've used (Watts, Bell and Gossett, etc) are generally far less accurate than you imply, IOW, they reduce downstream pressure variation but do NOT keep downstream pressure "constant." I'm told that there exist high-end versions of these valves that are more accurate, but I haven't tried them. What have you used? Have you really put gauges on them to watch the outlet pressure as the inlet pressure varies? I have, and the performance was surprisingly bad.

I need to try one of the high-end versions.

Also, I just took apart a procon pump head I had sitting here. The regulator in it is spring based, not diaphragm based. What this means is that regulated outlet pressure does not vary with inlet pressue. I have no idea why we have been hearing so long that inlet and outlet are related. Based on this pump I'm staring at, it does not appear to be true.

This from Procon's website:

All relief valves are preset at the factory to your specifications (60 to 250 psi range available, 30 to 250 psi range also available on certain models, consult factory for details). At the specified relief valve setting, the flow will fully by-pass from the outlet to the inlet through the relief valve chamber. The specified relief valve setting is an average; individual pumps will vary both above and below the specified setting. The relief valve actually cracks and begins to by-pass flow at approximately 50 psi below the relief valve setting. Be advised that due to the design of the relief valve, the relief valve reacts to the difference in pressure between the inlet and the outlet. As a result, the highest pressure which the pump can develop at its discharge port is the inlet pressure plus the specified relief valve setting.

[lino]

I actually haven't used regulators on my water line, so I don't have any direct experience. By very constant I had assumed that the regulators would hold to one PSI or so, which I would think in espresso context would be constant enough. However certainly wouldn't be the first time I was wrong... (heh, especially in the last post!)

Regarding the the in-pump regulator...
The regulator function is:

open pressure = inlet pressure + spring force / area of valve opening
where spring force is adjustable

so (if I can try to tactfully admit a "partial" error), outlet pressure is certainly not proprtional to inlet pressure, however there is an additive component. The higher the pressure increase produced by the pump, the lower the significance of the inlet pressure.

That said, in our application, a 30 psi swing in inlet pressure would give the same swing in outlet pressure, or about 2 bar...

Way more than we'd want, by a factor of 20 or so!

Also means that what I said before was more than "partially" incorrect...


ciao

lino

[AndyS]

I actually haven't used regulators on my water line, so I don't have any direct experience. By very constant I had assumed that the regulators would hold to one PSI or so, which I would think in espresso context would be constant enough.

I've had no experience with pressure regulators in espresso applications. My experience with them in general industrial applications is that the outlet pressure varies more like 10 psi than one psi. But perhaps in espresso, with the very low flow rates involved, they may do a lot better.

[AndyS]

BTW, I went back to Schomer's book and reread all 2.5 pages of the "Pump Pressure" chapter. It's pretty vague. It appears that he keeps the little 3 gal "static" tank nearly full of water at atmospheric pressure. When he says the rotary pump will "always have incoming water at one bar, or around 15 pounds of pressure," I have previously assumed that he piped in the static tank up on the third floor, and the water running downhill produced the one bar pressure.

But now I'm thinking Schomer simply has absolute pressure and gauge pressure mixed up. Now I assume that the static tank is right under the espresso machine. By definition his pump sees one bar absolute pressure, but in practical terms this is zero bars gauge pressure. His rotary sucks its water right out of the static tank and makes the entire 8.2 bars on its own.

AFAIK, zero bars gauge pressure is OK for LM machines, but I don't know about Mistrals or Synessos. Some of you guys have undoubtedly seen his installation firsthand. Comments?

[torretta]

Interesting discussion Lino and Andy. In practice, I've found that the inlet pressure definitely affects the output pressure, but not 1-to-1. I assume because the spring resistance isn't linear (?). Tweaking the inlet pressure regulator is an easy way of making small brew pressure adjustments without opening the espresso machine's casing to access the rotary pump bypass.

I use flojet with an everpure filter feeding a rotary pump and recently decided to do away with the flojet. I found the flojet to still be a bit noisy and I wanted to see if there would be an improvement in the cup given the pressure fluctuations with the flojet.

With the flojet, group pressure bounced around 9.5-10 bars. Without the flojet brew pressure is between 8.5 and 9 without any fluctuation. I also added a check valve to the supply tube. I have never adjusted the pump pressure on this machine.

The only difference I noticed was that the crema was a bit darker. I think the taste has also improved a bit but I don't know if that is more of a product of the varying quality of my home roasts. In any event, I'm probably going to leave it as it for a while... anyone else has experience with before and after wrt the flojet pump??

[malachi]

The goal of the static tank is not to provide positive inlet pressure but rather to isolate the pump from vagaries in line pressure (to provide a stable inlet pressure).

Works fine with Mistrals (based on LMs) and should work fine with Synessos I think (Procon pumps etc).

I prefer an accumulator that uses a bladder to provide stable positive pressure - but I'm crazy I guess.