First impressions of the Ponte Vecchio Lusso 2 group

[narc]

Received my order from 1st-Line today. Long work day & the Reg Barber 45mm tamper has not yet arrived. So this is literally an out of the box quick 1st impressions.
The construction as hoped for is good but no real WOW factor. Bends, welds, enameling(purchased the black model) are fine. One flaw is a dimple on the chrome plated housing that the groups attach too. Relative to Isomac Tea, the steel seems to be of a thinner gauge. The unit looks like the single group Ponte Vecchio Lusso (PVL), but they squeeze in the second group. As in the photos the water wands sort of block the pressure gauge. There is one set of thermo-syphon tubes to heat the groupheads exiting the boiler centered between the two groups. It like the water line to the groupheads must split in the housing that the groupheads are bolted to. Portafilters are 45mm similar in quality and mass to the Elektra MicroCasa a Leva (MCaL). Internally from what is visible without removing (single bolt) the plastic inner cover that has a marking SAMA on it there is not much to see. The boiler with the pressure relief valve, the thermosyphoning line, the single line feeding the groupheads and the sight glass/pressure gauge lines. Simple functional elegance. The pressure gauge is marked in PSI & Bars. The sightglass is nice to prevent overfilling. There is a built in auto shutdown in case the water level reaches a critical low level. Also there is a warning light that is activated if the water level reaches a low level. It works. Heated & drained the 1st tank load of water. Light went on well before the boiler was close to empty.

The FLAWS at this point that I perceive are: Maybe the thermofuse. Owners manual 1st states "apply to a service center", but later in the manual notes "Thermo switch protecting the heating element with manual rearmament". Sure hope under the inner cover there is a user manual reset switch. Placing two groupheads on the same chassis as the Lusso single is a little tight. Couple negatives. As mentioned above you need to look through the water wand to view the pressure gauge. I have a left & right portafilter. One of the portafilters requires about 20 degrees more rotation to tighten. If used on left group it will interfere with loading or unloading the right portafilter. The water wand needs a redesigned tip. It tends to sputter & spray. Needs a showerhead unit like on the Tea. The drip tray is very inadequate. Too low capacity. As pictured too narrow. PV needs to make use of the total depth of the tray holder and extend the tray at least another 3 preferably 5 cm out. Larger & deeper would be nice for those sloppy moments. The steam & water wands do not rotate. The small steaming pitcher (~300ml) barely fits without having to tilt. You are also real close to the left grouphead.

The perceived POSITIVES: After reaching temperature equilibrium with the water level at 1/2 as measured by the site glass, the heating unit cycles on/off on average a little over every 2 minutes maintaining 1.4 to 1.5 BARS. Heating from 1.4 to 1.5 bars takes on average less than 5 seconds. Hopefully this static relatively thermostability along with the nondirect, thermo-syphon heated grouphead will yield a more thermostable active machine. The design plus minimal cycling should allow for 24/7 on use. The PVs footprint & more mass is physically more stable than the MCaL. Might actually be able to pull a shot using one hand/arm. Tomorrow after a short day at work I will pop off the inner cover to reset the pressurestat downward to 1.0 +/- 0.1 bars. Hope to find a manual thermofuse. If the Reg Barber tamper arrives & if I dial-in the pulls will try a few shot comparisons vs the MCaL.

As stated on another thread/post my plan of use with this machine is to tag team between the two groups allowing multiple shots to be pulled without long waits between drinks. The convenience of an E61 semi-auto pump with the quality of a lever shot. Hopefully this machine will meet my expectations.

[mogogear]

Narc- you sir were decisive once committed.. A lot of thoughts put in to that first post- that took a while to organize.

Thanks for the effort- we look forward to more

[peacecup]

Narc,

You'll seldom if ever need to see the pressure gauge once you've got the P-stat set where you like it. The temperature band is narrow and stable. My Export does not have a gauge, but I turned it down to what I guess is ~1 bar. I dislike very hot espresso, but that's a personal preference. The Pstat is a Mater - I've posted a photo on one of my threads. VERY simple to adjust, just turn a screw (actually has a + - label). Supposedly very reliable, though I'm no expert. Mine has worked quite well for two years.

I use a plastic tupperware in addition to the drip tray - the Export's is even smaller.

Unless you run it out of water you'll probably not deal with the thermal cutoff. I did so once and mine flipped. Had to take the cover off the bottom and reset. No problem, but Gene at Vanelis cautioned me that running them dry can easily damage the element. I hope I never make that mistake again.

Here's a quote from another (1-group) Lusso lover:

My prior espresso machine was a fine Isomac Zaffiro. So many factors were critical to an excellent cup, including a narrow band of optimum temperature, a precise dose and tamp with a specifically shaped convex tamper. I learned how to work the machine, but I was necessarily paying at least as much attention to the process as to the cup.

With the arrival of my spring lever, the whole process of making espresso was greatly simplified, and my focus is now on enjoying excellent coffee. For me, the move to a spring lever has greatly improved my overall enjoyment of espresso.

I suppose with two groups you'll be loving yours twice as much before long...

PC

[peacecup]

PS DON'T WAIT FOR THE REG BARBER! FILL THE BASKET TO THE BRIM AND TAMP IT WITH A SPOON IF YOU HAVE TO AND START PULLING!

I do think the 45-mm is less worried about headspace than the Elektra - at least this is true vs the Pavoni!

PC

[grong]

Thanks for the report on your new machine. I hope you like it.

I have had my single group Lusso for over a year, and I love it.

Following are a couple of set-ups that help me enjoy my machine.

As for becoming happy with the drip tray, I slide in a coffee cup to catch flushes from the group head, bleeding from the hot water wand and steam wand, and drips after the shot is pulled. The coffee cup is easy to empty and keep clean, and the drip tray just catches stray spatters. I like this method, and prefer it to a big honking drip tray that is a pain to empty and keep clean.

I have set my p-stat kick on the boiler at .5 bar and off at .8 bar. If the false pressure is bled off, it is plenty hot for me, and the machine does not overheat at all in my use.

Good luck with your new machine, narc!

[narc]

Removed the inner plastic cover only to find out you need to remove the casing to access the Pstat & thermofuse. What I thought was a simple unscrew couple bolts(underside of machine) & remove the steam & water knobs turned into a bit of hmmm... moment. The way the casing wraps around the front panel requires you to pivot the casing off. Managed to slightly scratch the inside of the case on both sides with the water & steam valve stems. The bolts holding the knobs on loosen counter-clockwise. The same rotation that opens the valves. Forgot to tighten valves after removing the knobs. As the boiler heated up water streaming from the wand was a hint. Removing the casing is a bit of a PITA.
For routine descaling & draining the boiler I plan to syphon the water out. The pstat is a Mater. Adjusted the boiler pressure to 1.0 +/- 0.05 bars based on the gauge. A gauge pressure of 1 bar should yield a steam temperature of 121 C. On an HX machine the group water temp would be ~92C. Not sure what the group water temp would be on a lever machine with a thermosyphon head. The thermofuse is a pushbutton resettable unit. Low water level sensor and the power relay/control board are the only other parts under the black plastic inner cover.

The geeky side of me kicked in for a moment. How about drilling a hole in side panel to easily access the pstat? Might want to fool around with the boiler temp for different blends & single origin espresso. Then reality kicked in. Don't be a FOOL. Keep things simple. On the maybe practical side. The space around the boiler & no clutter of wires/lines/valves would allow you to wrap an insulating blanket around most of the boiler circumference. Anyone know what type of material Quickmill uses on the Andreja Premium? Plan to run the machine 24/7. The insulating blanket may decrease heat breakdown of components and decrease the number of cycles/hr the heating element kicks in.

PC, the boiler pressure gauge is nice for setting the pstat. You are right about how little I will be looking at it. No tamper yet. Don't want to disappoint myself with a poorly dosed/tamped dose. The PVL2 is now set up taking the place of the Tea waiting for the Reg Barber. For now it's just the MCaL.

grong, the MCal has the same drip tray issues as the PVL2. Must be a lever machine thing. These trays are truly DRIP ONLY trays. There is a bit of design flaw with the drip tray. Not enough holes to allow rapid draining and reduce splashing. Liquid tends to pool on the tray surface. Have been using a cup for the flush. The glass cup I use sitting atop an ancient filter basket wraps around the grouphead of MCaL. Should work just as nice on the PVL2. I also use it to catch the drips from the portafilter while it depressurizes. Might need to break out a 2nd cup for the PVL2.

[mogogear]

A drip tray bright side is that since you will not be doing the HX water dance- - you will pull a blank shot into your espresso cup to warm both up- and then the drip tray really is for "drips" from the PF as you stated...

My Cremina tray and Bezzera club are no different than your PV 2 ( actually Cremina is half size) I usually pour some water - into -the drip tray when I am all done to rinse the heavy stuff and then dump)

[grong]

Adjusting the p-stat:

Yes, the cover is a puzzle to remove.

After unplugging the machine, I unscrew the steam knob and remove the cup warming tray. I don't have the black plastic SAMA plate inside the machine, but I would guess this would need to be removed to gain access to the p-stat. Then I peek through the steam valve knob hole in the casing, and in through the top of the machine with my ratchet screwdriver. It requires some patience, but overall it makes adjusting the p-stat a pretty easy job-- much easier for me than removing the cover.

Thanks for the thorough review of your impressions of your new machine, narc. I hope you have your tamper soon.

[peacecup]

I think the pStat is the same as the Export?



Mine is under the base, accessed by four screws that attach the rubber feet - very simple. But of course this is a small machine that can't be left on all day. Once you've got it where you want it you probably won't be adjusting it often. It would be good, however, if the PV folks found a way to make access easier.

I've considered buying a pressure gauge to attach to the filler hole so I can check the pressure setting, but I seem to have it set where I like it so I have not bothered. My espresso yesterday were all very good. Since we're four hours behind a lot of you up here, I'd better go get brewing....

PC

[narc]

PC, the Mater pstat is black. Maybe the manufacturer has changed colors. I think the model imprint said XP110. The control unit is a Tecnolab Eraclito 11, made in Milano, Italy. There is an electrical schematic printed on the unit which should help if needed in the future.

grong, thanks for the advice on accessing the pstat without having to remove the casing. Will save significant time & effort for future pstat adjustments.

I took some low resolution photos of the insides of the PVL with an old digital camera. 28kbs dial up connection at home. Will post the shots next time I have access to a high speed connection.

[narc]

Enclosed are photos of the insides of the PVL2 & one of the MCaL

[mogogear]

Nice Shrine............

R'Astro says "rots of revers!" R'Elroy! -Arf

[narc]

The RegBarber 45mm Eurocurve base arrived today. Had enough on the current espresso blend to pull 2 shots on the Elektra Microcasa a Leva (MCaL) and 3 shots with the Ponte Vecchio Lusso 2 (PVL2). I've been using this blend for the past 4 days. Roasted 5 days ago. 2nd shot on the MCaL was good. 1st pull was barely acceptable. The PVL2 was on for ~40 minutes prior to pulling the drinks. Leaving the Mazzer Mini grinder as set for the MCaL resulted in a short blond pull. Had to bump up the grind by a whole notch finer. The pull yielded a crema with a richer/thicker texture. Both in looks and feel in the mouth. Initial volume of crema was similar but seemed to last longer. Not having a side by side taste comparison I am guessing the overall characteristics of the cup are similar. Just that heavier crema influence. Not sure if this was just a fluke. Will find out with some more use.

Wondering if the finer grind necessary to approximately duplicate the preinfusion and extraction time of the MCaL is a reflection of a heavier spring in the PVL2? If so, is it the higher extraction pressure that created a different quality of crema?

Tag teaming between the two groups should work nice. At a leisurely pace you can grind, dose, tamp, load & pull. Repeat with group #2. Enough time has passed to depressure group #1 to remove without getting splattered and cycle through again. Basically one pull every 2-3 minutes.

Did find out one thing about the water level glass. While I was cleaning the groups by flushing the low water light came on. The water level in the glass was still visible. After the machine cooled I siphoned the remaining water out. Didn't think about measuring it. Next time! Either the light kicks on way too early or the water level glass needs repositioning. According to the owners manual this a 3L boiler. You are to "Pour fresh water into the boiler; however the water level must not go above the top of the level glass, since space is required in the boiler for steam". Into the almost empty boiler adding ~ 1.5L resulted in the water level almost at the top of the glass. Checking with a dipstick the water level in the boiler was only ~1/2 full. Proceeded to pour an additional 500ml of water which more than filled the water level glass. Powered up. No problems in generating steam. The water level glass in future machines need to be repositioned upwards.

[grong]

Congratulations on the first shots, narc!

I siphon out the water at the bottom of my boiler every day or every other. With the sight glass at the low level mark, about 1 quart of water remains to jacket the heating element. No auto cut-off on my year-old model, ok by me, though.

[narc]

After ~1week there are couple bits of update info. After reading Dan's initial post in the "Lever Machine Smackdown" I began wondering if his use of a spice jar tamper is due to a real tight fit with a 45mm tamper. Not sure of the degree of precision in these baskets. I expect there is a few 10ths of a mm differences. I broke out the digital luthiers calipers (0.01mm accuracy) and measured the size difference between the tamper base & filterbasket at ~5mm depth. On the Micro Casa a Leva (MCaL) which feels right there is a ~ 0.8mm difference. On the tight Ponte Vecchio Lusso (PVL) there is a ~0.2mm difference. The grinds sort of jam between the base & sides of the basket. It bugs me enough to order a 44.5mm base. Should have measured before ordering the 45mm. Lesson learned. Have readjusted the grind to 1.5 notches finer on the Mazzer relative to the grind that pulls a nice shot on the MCaL. The resulting shot is what I feel is better than the earlier 1 notch finer setting. Richer heavier body. Have been just single pulling for now. 6-8 sec preinfusion. Volume ~30ml. Not sure if this was just by chance, but the last & best shot pulled this morning involved providing some resistance on the lever as it returned upwards. Tomorrow I will be bumping the grind up another 1/2 notch.

[prof_stack]

Narc, nice postings about the PV.

Keep carefully ramping up the grind and be careful with the tamp pressure. You should come across the choke point pretty soon.

Are you planning to use the single basket for any shots? I like what my Export does with the single basket. I can tamp harder and get good crema using the single basket.

[HB]

After reading Dan's initial post in the "Lever Machine Smackdown" I began wondering if his use of a spice jar tamper is due to a real tight fit with a 45mm tamper.

The evaluation Lusso came with a plastic tamper. I don't have vernier calipers for precise measurements, but the smaller end is ~39mm and the larger end is ~49mm. One too little, one too big, none just right. Dave at espressoparts.com came to my rescue, machining a nice 45mm slightly convex piston for it. Prior to the replacement piston's arrival, I used a spice bottle as tamper, since its top is flat and happens to measure 45mm across.

[Dogshot]

My 45mm Reg Barber is a beautiful tamper, but it almost feels like overkill for my Export. While the tamp seems to be an important part of my E-61 machine brew process, its role seems to be more one of neatness in my lever process. Tamping for my Export keeps the coffee grounds off the group and seal area, but I have not noticed an effect on my shots, except when I start using more than a few pounds of force. At 30lbs tamps, my shots are uniformly poor. I'll be interested to see if (m)any of the new-to-lever testers will come to similar conclusions about the tamp.

Mark

[prof_stack]

My 45mm Reg Barber is a beautiful tamper, but it almost feels like overkill for my Export. While the tamp seems to be an important part of my E-61 machine brew process, its role seems to be more one of neatness in my lever process. Tamping for my Export keeps the coffee grounds off the group and seal area, but I have not noticed an effect on my shots, except when I start using more than a few pounds of force. At 30lbs tamps, my shots are uniformly poor. I'll be interested to see if (m)any of the new-to-lever testers will come to similar conclusions about the tamp. Mark

Although I'm not an official tester on the "bench", I have to agree with Dogshot about this. The Export (and probably Lusso) do not appreciate a hard tamp, especially with fresh roasted beans.

When I bought the Export last December, Joe (@ Good Coffee Company) and son Carl both really emphasized just a gentle pat of the coffee in the basket to smooth the surface. Like others I discovered through experience that the Export makes its best espresso at a light to medium tamp. When the lever just sits in the down position or crawls back up slower than a snail, you know you tamped too hard.

[grong]

In my experience, and this is in comparison to my owning several pump espresso machines including E61, the tamp for the Lusso, to produce the best cup, should not be a hard tamp. Excellent distribution is of value ( I use Mr. Brown's distribution technique). A light to medium tamp usually works just fine. I grind for a flow rate on the fast side of 7 to 15 seconds per pull-- the faster shots make for more flavor and full shot glass of crema. If it fit the basket, the top of a spice jar or probably a tablespoon would do just as effective of a job of tamping as a high end tamper with the Lusso. Of course, the designer tamper would look so good on the counter and in action.

With my old E61 machine, the dose, distribution, tamping firmness, and even the shape of the tamp were all vital to a good cup. I prefer the cup from the Lusso, and the production process is an infinitely more relaxed love affair.